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Thread: Legality of carrying Antique Pistol/Replca without CPL by non-resident in Michigan.

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    Legality of carrying Antique Pistol/Replca without CPL by non-resident in Michigan.

    Hi, I've got an unusual situation. Let me describe.

    I'm an expatriate American Citizen having recently moved to live overseas with my wife and daughter. I'll be visiting Michigan this summer and would like to carry concealed, however Michigan law only recognizes permits held by U.S. Citizens that were issued by their home state of residence. For that reason, I'm unable to get a concealed carry permit from any jurisdication that will be honored by Michigan.

    From the MCRGO website:

    Q: What is a “pistol” under Michigan law?
    A: A pistol is defined as any firearm 30” in length or less (can include rifles [26”] and shotguns [30”], and pellet or dart guns). A smoothbore gun that shoots only BB’s .177 cal or less is not considered a firearm. All pellet guns are firearms. BB guns that shoot pellets or darts as well as BBs are considered firearms. A paint ball pistol is not considered a firearm nor is a USCG approved 12 ga. flare pistol, if used and carried as a signaling device.

    Black Powder and Antiques (as of May of 2004)
    Sections 2 (MCL 28.422) and 9 (MCL 28.429) of Public Act 372 of 1927, the concealed weapons law, do not apply to antique firearms. MCL 28.432 now says that purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm is not be subject to the licensure requirements under section 2 (purchase permits) or the requirements that a pistol be subject to a safety inspection conducted by the local police department under section 9.

    Am I correct in believing that I can carry an antique pistol (openly or concealed) without a permit in Michigan? That seems to be what it says? Would I be good to go, or are there any legal gotchas that I would need to be aware of? Would the pistol-free zones still apply in the case of antiques?

    Thanks!

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    Thanks but I'm not questioning the definition of antique firearms at the moment, but wanted to make really really sure that possession/concealed/open carry of antique firearms in Michigan by a non-U.S. resident American Citizen was legal. Unfortunately, Michigan law requires U.S. residency as a pre-requisite to honoring a concealed carry permit (to make a long story short) so I can't legally carry concealed a modern firearm.

    The information I posted above from the MCRGO website seems to indicate that doing so is ok, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other facts to be considered. Hopefully, someone who knows a bit more about the legalese can chime in here, thanks!
    Last edited by OC4me; 02-24-2011 at 01:34 PM.

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    Regular Member MarineSgt's Avatar
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    Interesting question. I am curious as well. Also, lets think of this. The anti-gun people always use the argument that "The Founding Fathers didn't know that there would be assault rifles... blah blah blah..."

    If we were to OC handguns that had the same technology as being used in the last 1700s to early 1800s. How could they argue against us? Then we would be "obviously" within the intent.

    The government should not have any PFZs listed. Because the government shouldn't be in control of private property.
    Last edited by MarineSgt; 02-21-2011 at 01:21 PM.
    Someone who can't be trusted to walk free in public with a firearm shouldn't be walking around free.

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    Post Heller & McDonald, Michigan's outright prohibition of concealed carry by U.S. Citizens due solely to residency is most likely unconstitutional. However, that issue may have to wait years to be addressed by the courts. Meanwhile, I'd like to carry something, anything, that goes bang for self-defense. It is just really really hard to know what is legal or not. The last thing I want is to commit a felony and not realize it.
    Last edited by OC4me; 02-24-2011 at 01:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    You asked if you could carry a antique firearm as a non-American, i gave the def of a antique because I could not see anyone today carrying that for defense

    here is you legalize

    according to the AFT WEBSITE PER [TITLE 18 U.S.C. 922(g) and (n), 27 CFR 478.32]
    no

    Q: Are there certain persons who cannot legally receive or possess firearms and/or ammunition?

    Yes, a person who —

    1. Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year;
    2. Is a fugitive from justice;
    3. Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
    4. Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution;
    5. Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;
    6. Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
    7. Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship;
    8. Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or
    9. Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
    10. Cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm.

    A person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year cannot lawfully receive a firearm.

    Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(g) and (n), 27 CFR 478.32]
    I believe he said he was an American Citizen just not a resident of Michigan.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    NO according to him, he is a "an expatriate American Citizen"

    Quote:
    'Im an expatriate American Citizen having recently moved to live overseas with my wife and daughter.

    in other words he said that he gave up his American Citizenship to live overseas permanently, since his wife and Daughter lives there.

    I have no idea how one gives up his American Citizenship when they move overseas, but IF he has done so, then title 18 applies IMO and IMNAL
    He said he is an 'expatriat', not that he gave up his citizenship. Being an 'expat' means that the person is living in a different country than where he or she is a citizen. Usually, the term refers to people who live in a different country because of job requirements. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriate

    People who give up their citizenship are usually referred to as 'emigrant(s)' by the place they left and 'immigrants' by the place to which they have or want to gain citizenship.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    I will look up the law tomorrow as I seem to remember something to the effect that in order to actually carry it concealed, one needed a permit but to possess an antique firearm, one did not need the out-of-state concealed permit nor the purchase permit... but I most certainly could be wrong.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Yes, I am indeed an American and will never give up my citizenship. Somehow, Michigan and a few other states, have legislated law-abiding expatriate U.S. Citizens out of their Second Amendment Rights. I don't think that carrying an antique firearm is an adequate expression of my 2A rights but it is better than nothing.

    DrTodd, thank you very much. Let us know what you find, thanks! Navigating around statutes is no easy task. Figuring out what the law actually means is actually pretty darn difficult.
    Last edited by OC4me; 02-22-2011 at 02:39 PM.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Under Michigan Law, there are only 2 ways that a person can bring (Possess) a firearm into Michigan. 1) That they have a License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol from their home state or 2), a Permit to Carry Concealed from ANY state. Note this only covers the possession of a pistol in Michigan.
    #1--MCL 28.422
    #2--MCL 28.432

    If a person wished to CONCEAL a pistol in Michigan, they must have a Permit that allows the person to conceal a Pistol from their home state. NO EXCEPTIONS for Antique firearms.

    Since you are bringing an antique pistol into Michigan, you would be exempt from the "License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol" and could possess the pistol while you are here. (see MCL 28.432) You may NOT carry the antique pistol concealed.
    In fact, while transporting the antique pistol, MCL 750.231a states that in order to be exempt from the concealed pistol charge while in a vehicle, it must be transported "completely unloaded in a closed case or container designed for the storage of firearms in the trunk of a vehicle" which is basically the way anyone needs to transport without a CPL... except that there are no requirements that you must be transporting for a "lawful purpose".

    So, although you may bring it into Michigan, you may only carry it openly and would be subject to all of the carry restrictions that apply to OC without a CPL.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 02-22-2011 at 10:05 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Yes, I am indeed an American and will never give up my citizenship. Somehow, Michigan and a few other states, have legislated law-abiding expatriate U.S. Citizens out of their Second Amendment Rights. I don't think that carrying an antique firearm is an adequate expression of my 2A rights but it is better than nothing.

    DrTodd, thank you very much. Let us know what you find, thanks! Navigating around statutes is no easy task. Figuring out what the law actually means is actually pretty darn difficult.
    There may be some other options available to you depending on your circumstances. PM me if you would like and with some more information, I may be able to steer you in the right direction.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    My understanding is because of the law Dr Todd posted, you'd be fine to OC in the same circumstances as a Michigan resident with a registered pistol IF you were to obtain a handgun of any legal type, and an out of state license/permit such as the popular Utah/fFlorida options. As I recall, you would also need to obey the restrictions which might be listed on the permit/license.

    One other detail worthy of note in order to further clarify what DrTodd was saying is that one laws definitions of guns don't cancel out another law. Unless a particular gun law stipulates that it doesn't apply to antique guns, it very much does. This means that most of michigan's laws regarding pistol carrying apply directly to black powder muzzle loading handguns. Only benefit of BPML's is you don't have to register them. But even then, if you don't have a CPL you can't OC them within 1000 feet of a school since they're not registered, and registration is by the definitions of the law a state license, and a state license to carry eliminates the federal gun free school zones act.

    Just as confusing as it is stupid, huh?
    Last edited by Michigander; 02-23-2011 at 12:45 AM.
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    Regular Member Golden Eagle's Avatar
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    It might not be much but could the OP at least get self-defense spray?
    Law: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(isx...e=mcl-750-224d
    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

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    Thanks DrTodd and everyone else. Ok, no Second Amendment to help protect myself, wife and daughter while visiting Michigan this summer!

    Apparently, we have to wait for the courts to catch up and start striking down some of these silly laws. That could take a while since the Supreme Court hasn't explicitly ruled that carry in public is a protected fundamental right.

    I do have hopes (after Obama is gone) that a National Reciprocity bill might provide relief. That is provided they don't stipulate the same silly U.S.-residency requirement as does Michigan, Florida and many other States.

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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Eagle View Post
    It might not be much but could the OP at least get self-defense spray?
    Law: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(isx41545tdnendyzna1zqgr5))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectname=mcl-750-224d
    IMO,our defense sprays are too weak(due to state law) to do as much as they should.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    Quote Originally Posted by lil_freak_66 View Post
    IMO,our defense sprays are too weak(due to state law) to do as much as they should.
    What law makes defense sprays too weak?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Trucker View Post
    What law makes defense sprays too weak?
    If one follows the line of reasoning that oleoresin capsicum (OC) percentage denotes 'strength' (my opinion = "it depends"), the reference to 'weak' could refer to the fact that Michigan USED TO allow only 2% oleoresin capsicum (OC) spray. However, in December of 2010, Public Act 365 changed the percentage to 10%. I've noticed, though, that MANY manufacturers and suppliers of OC spray seemingly are unaware of this change OR are just trying to get rid of all that 2% OC spray before they replace it with the 10% stuff.

    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-224d
    Last edited by DrTodd; 02-23-2011 at 10:32 PM. Reason: to add citation
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Thanks DrTodd and everyone else. Ok, no Second Amendment to help protect myself, wife and daughter while visiting Michigan this summer!.
    Again, if you can get a Florida license, you should be fine along the same lines as any non CPL holding OCer in Michigan. There is also the possibility of long guns, which isn't really allowed to be discussed here, but you could take that inquiry to MOC's forum.

    If you are definitely going to carry concealed, the simple, red tape free option, so long as you never deploy it in self defense is what I call my 50 state carry method. Get a nose spray bottle of the squeeze kind, not the pump kind. Remove the straw and bore out the nozzle end with a hot needle, such as a sewing needle heated with a cigarette lighter. Take the strongest janitor grade ammoniated cleaner you can find and fill it with it. You can pull this from your pocket, spinning the cap off as you draw it, and have it deployed in roughly one second. Combined with another weapon like a mag light, hammer, cane, knife or anything else, it's a thoroughly devastating system.

    No one is likely to mess with you for having it. The only problem would be if you sprayed someone with it. At that point federal state and local laws could come into play. But it's better to be judged harshly by 12 than carried and buried by 6. It is my go to option when guns are not an option for one reason or another. Only place I won't take it is on board an airplane.

    The other concern, very much like with pepper spray is cross contamination, which is especially bad with ammonia since it could permanently blind someone, and cause a really bad legal battle. However, it's for life and death situations where the odds are already really bad. Pepper spray is for when you don't really want someone dead or horribly injured. So I won't carry pepper spray for general defense because of cross contamination, but I will carry ammonia despite cross contamination possibilities when I can't carry a gun. At least with ammonia I KNOW it can work since it will take vision away and cause a lot of pain, rather than merely try to get compliance through pain like pepper spray.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Again, if you can get a Florida license, you should be fine along the same lines as any non CPL holding OCer in Michigan.
    Even though I maintain a permanent domicle in Florida, as a non-U.S. Resident (American Citizen), Florida is also a no-go for the very same legal-gotcha! Florida, absolutely does not issue CPLs to U.S. Citizens who live abroad. My once-valid Florida CPL expired last summer, when I tried to renew it, I found out that I was persona non grata (ineligible) under Florida law. I've got the back-forth correspondence with the Florida Department of Agriculture and their Counsel concering this very issue. I wish I had the money to sue them. They couldn't care less pretty much sums up their attitude, but at least they were very professional and polite with me while explaining that expatriate Americans had no Second Amendment Rights in their state. No unlicensed open-carry in Florida there so no other option for expatriate U.S. Citizens than to have a license, which of course they will not issue.
    Last edited by OC4me; 02-24-2011 at 01:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    . . . if you don't have a CPL you can't OC them within 1000 feet of a school since they're not registered, and registration is by the definitions of the law a state license, and a state license to carry eliminates the federal gun free school zones act.
    Is there a Michigan 1,000 foot school zone where I couldn't carry (even an antique firearm) or are we just subject to the Federal Gun Free School Zone act? If so, doesn't the Federal Gun Free School Zone act only apply to modern arms? Aren't antique firearms exempt from the Federal Gun Free School Zone act? Now I'm really confused.

    I can live with the restriction on concealed carry in a vehicle because unloading an antique (revolver anyway) just requires removal of the percussion caps. But the other Michigan Gun Free School Zones bother me a bit and I'd need to be very careful (i.e. liquor stores, etc.).

  20. #20
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Is there a Michigan 1,000 foot school zone where I couldn't carry (even an antique firearm) or are we just subject to the Federal Gun Free School Zone act? If so, doesn't the Federal Gun Free School Zone act only apply to modern arms? Aren't antique firearms exempt from the Federal Gun Free School Zone act? Now I'm really confused.

    I can live with the restriction on concealed carry in a vehicle because unloading an antique (revolver anyway) just requires removal of the percussion caps. But the other Michigan Gun Free School Zones bother me a bit and I'd need to be very careful (i.e. liquor stores, etc.).
    I don't think Michigan has a 1000 foot rule. Their weapon free school zone is for in/on a school property.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Thanks Venator,

    That is what I thought, no Michigan 1,000 foot rule. Now all I have to worry about is the Federal Zone.

    Does anybody know whether that Federal Gun Free School Zone applies to antique firearms?

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18...1----000-.html

    (A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

    (B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm

    (i) on private property not part of school grounds;

    (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

    (iii) that is—

    (I) not loaded; and

    (II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;


    (iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

    (v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

    (vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or

    (vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.
    (
    3) The term “firearm” means

    (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;

    (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;

    (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or

    (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 02-24-2011 at 06:03 PM.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Is there a Michigan 1,000 foot school zone where I couldn't carry (even an antique firearm) or are we just subject to the Federal Gun Free School Zone act? If so, doesn't the Federal Gun Free School Zone act only apply to modern arms? Aren't antique firearms exempt from the Federal Gun Free School Zone act? Now I'm really confused..
    Again, because of that law mentioned earlier, it doesn't matter if it's an antique or not. Antique status only makes them easier to buy, not legally carry openly. (Unless you're in Texas, but that's another matter.) Most of the laws about carrying make no distinction. Ownership and possession are treated very differently by almost every state's laws.

    You have 4 fairly legal options that I know of.

    MAYBE a Utah license. If they do that.

    Change your residence to Michigan while you are here. Get a drivers license, get a permit to purchase, buy a handgun or use it to register one that maybe you already have. You'll be all set.

    Use my spray suggestion.

    Carry a long gun. It'll be way more trouble than it's worth, and you would again have the school zone issue.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

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  24. #24
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Hi, I've got an unusual situation. Let me describe.

    I'm an expatriate American Citizen having recently moved to live overseas with my wife and daughter. I'll be visiting Michigan this summer and would like to carry concealed, however Michigan law only recognizes permits held by U.S. Citizens that were issued by their home state of residence. For that reason, I'm unable to get a concealed carry permit from any jurisdication that will be honored by Michigan.

    From the MCRGO website:

    Q: What is a “pistol” under Michigan law?
    A: A pistol is defined as any firearm 30” in length or less (can include rifles [26”] and shotguns [30”], and pellet or dart guns). A smoothbore gun that shoots only BB’s .177 cal or less is not considered a firearm. All pellet guns are firearms. BB guns that shoot pellets or darts as well as BBs are considered firearms. A paint ball pistol is not considered a firearm nor is a USCG approved 12 ga. flare pistol, if used and carried as a signaling device.

    Black Powder and Antiques (as of May of 2004)
    Sections 2 (MCL 28.422) and 9 (MCL 28.429) of Public Act 372 of 1927, the concealed weapons law, do not apply to antique firearms. MCL 28.432 now says that purchasing, owning, carrying, possessing, using, or transporting an antique firearm is not be subject to the licensure requirements under section 2 (purchase permits) or the requirements that a pistol be subject to a safety inspection conducted by the local police department under section 9.

    Am I correct in believing that I can carry an antique pistol (openly or concealed) without a permit in Michigan? That seems to be what it says? Would I be good to go, or are there any legal gotchas that I would need to be aware of? Would the pistol-free zones still apply in the case of antiques?

    Thanks!
    Were you a resident of Florida? Did/do you have a Florida concealed permit/license? Do you still have a FL drivers license?

    If you can answer yes, and if you still have both your FL drivers and concealed license, I'd say you'd have no worries. But what do I know.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Change your residence to Michigan while you are here. Get a drivers license, get a permit to purchase, buy a handgun or use it to register one that maybe you already have. You'll be all set..
    Strictly speaking, it is not 'legally' possible to be a resident of Michigan while physically residing abroad. It wouldn't matter if I had a permanent domicile in Michigan, had a Michigan driver's license, and registered to vote in Michigan, etc. I am still physically residing in another country for almost the entire year. Perhaps a Michigan driver's license would be enough to fool the system in order to get a license, but I don't really want to perjure myself nor risk prosecution for unlawfull possession and/or carry by relying on an 'invalid' license.

    At this point, I'm accepting that there is no practical or legal way for expatriate Americans to exercise their Second Amendment Rights in Michigan (and many other states). I know the courts will catch up in time and strike down U.S. residency requirements as a precondition for exercise of such a fundamental right . . . I'm fairly confident of that. However, I just don't have the wherewithal to mount my own challenge at this time.

    Ok, we can close this thread, I really do appreciate everybody's input and assistance!
    Last edited by OC4me; 02-25-2011 at 09:55 AM.

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