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Thread: Open Carry In Liquor Establishment in Alb.

  1. #1
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    Open Carry In Liquor Establishment in Alb.

    In the event there's anyone that doesn't know our law - you can not carry a firearm openly in any licensed liquor establishment.

    Stuff like this http://www.koat.com/news/26938084/detail.html certainly doesn't help our goals.

    Steve Aikens

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    Thanks for posting the entire link Steve.
    I was just going to post about it since it was in today's paper.
    Looks like there were two morons. One pretending to be a DEA agent (?!?!?) and the other open carrying into a restaurant that serves beer and wine. Open carry has its places. If he was carrying concealed, none of this would have happened.

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    It's a shame the guy with the gun was arrested after being attacked by some loon. Pretty unfair, but legal unfortunately.

    Best thing we can do is educate the public and work to make the law less confusing for people to avoid messes like this.

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    I'm not sure how to respond to that. The guy with the firearm was illegally displaying a firearms in a posted alcohol establishment. It's pretty hard to try to second guess the situation without being there. However, the fact that someone - regardless whether that someone was law enforcement or not - challenged the guy and he chose to fight instead of leaving the place leads me to believe there was far more to this than the guy was simply armed and eating a burger.

    The facts as we know them. The guy with the gun was violating the law. Then, armed, he chose to get into a fight. He committed a 4th degree felony and then added assault. He should have been arrested.

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    Mr Steve Aikens:

    It is Pretty Difficult for Me, being from Georgia, to Imangine how The State of New Mexico even Criminalizes Openly Carrying a Loaded Firearm in a Restaurant Licensed to Serve Alcohol for Consumption on Premises in The First Place.

    In Georgia..., Openly Carrying a Loaded Firearm, ANY Loaded Firearm, into a Restaurant Licensed to Serve Alcohol, ANY Alcohol, is LEGAL, AND a Person can EVEN Drink Alcohol while Armed with such a Loaded Firearm, Yes..., even at The Bar with ANY Alcoholic Beverage.

    *** Reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwHjAqo2prk ***

    I have even Openly Carried a Loaded Rifle into Several such Establishments, here in Georgia, including: LongHorns, OutBack, AND Red Lobster, etc..

    It just does not make Sense to me that in New Mexico, a Supposedly Pro-Firearm State..., and all..., that Openly Carrying a Loaded Pistol in Public is Legal, BUT should such Person enter a Restaurant Licensed to Serve Alcohol for Consumption on Premises with such Openly Carried Pistol, then..., BAM!, a Fourth Degree Felony!

    That is Crazy Talk..., even for New Mexican Standards.

    Too Bad House Bill 136 Died...

    aadvark

    *** Post Secondary Note: I DO NOT Advocate for Drinking while Armed, this is Stupid, and Invites Trouble, and NOT Nessecarily from Law Enforcement, but from other People, who either do NOT Know The Law, or do NOT Understand The Law. Even though in Georgia it is LEGAL to Drink Alcohol while Armed, in both Public and Private, I have only do so while in The Privacy of my House. The ONLY Time I Drank Alcohol while Armed with a Loaded Firearm in Public was when I had a Large Steak Dinner while at OutBack SteakHouse, and The Manager on Duty Agreed to this in Advance a Cut me off after only 1 Budweiser. ***

    *** Similiar to Sentence 2, in Georgia, Openly Carrying a Loaded Firearm, ANY Firearm, is also Legal in EVERY Place where Alcohol is Found, therefore, such Practices are also Legal in:
    1. Grocery Stores,
    2. Licquor Stores,
    3. Gas Stations,
    4. Hotels/Stadiums, AND
    5. Alcohol-only Bars/Alcohol-only Taverns/ Adult Night Clubs, provided; under Georgia Code 16-11-127(b)(6), a Person needs to have a Georgia Weapons Carry License AND Owner/Opeartor/Manager Permission to Enter any Place Listed under this Sentence as such Places are Defined under Georgia Code 16-11-127(a)(1). ***
    Last edited by aadvark; 02-22-2011 at 11:40 AM.

  6. #6
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    "aadvark
    Mr Steve Aikens:

    It is Pretty Difficult for Me, being from Georgia, to Imangine how The State of New Mexico even Criminalizes Openly Carrying a Loaded Firearm in a Restaurant Licensed to Serve Alcohol for Consumption on Premises in The First Place."

    How difficult is it to understand that each state has its own laws? I am surprised when someone criticizes laws in a state when that is all they can work with. Is it difficult for you to imagine how Chicago crininalizes almost anything associated with guns? How about New York? What about Washington,DC? The laws are what are on the books and it is our job to obey them and change them if we do not like them.
    The reason we have the excellent gun laws we have is because of people like Steve Aikens that work tirelessly to improve them each year.
    What screws it up for others is for people to not know the laws and obey them. Then the legislators begin to look at new laws to control guns.

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    NM is kind of funny about alcohol. I follow an independent baseball league that is about to kick off their first season in western Texas and eastern NM, and they ran into all sorts of opposition in NM to selling beer at games.

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    My two cents are that alcohol and guns dont mix.Driving and alcohol dont mix. Alcohol impairs judgement in either activity.Its hard to be responsible in either drunk. As for this person arrested for carrying in a place that serves again not a smart choice. I carry concealed sometimes and walked into an Olive Garden realizing they have a full bar menu.I went directly to my car and locked the gun in the box. Did I have alcohol with my meal? No because I still had a responsibilty to my weapon and drive home.

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    aadvark

    Go to www.handgunlaw.us - notice there is a map on the main pages. Click on the states you find there. Read the law in each state. Notice every one of the 50 states have DIFFERENT LAWS - which were created by each states legislature. Find a state that suits your ideals - and move there.

    Rants like yours here, about NM state laws, lends absolutely nothing positive to our goals of every person, in every situation, in every location, in every state, to be able to bear arms for personal protection or sporting uses.

    If you don't like our laws, and don't want to move, get your ass up here to Santa Fe during the legislative sessions, like I'm doing at this very moment, and get to work changing them to suit your needs.

    Ranting about them from the comfort of your home only serves to paint you as a do nothing whiner, waiting for someone else to do the work you SHOULD be doing.

    If that sounds harsh, you are reading it as it was intended to be read....

    Steve Aikens

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    Mr. Steve Aikens:

    I, too, work Tirelessly with The Georgia General Assembly.

    We have Laws here that make Crimes out of Certain Firearm-related Matters, that in New Mexico would not be considered Crimes at all.

    I Contact, and sometimes Meet with, my Representatives and Senators every Time I have The Chance.

    In Fact, there was no Rant, as You called it, taking Place, and I can Prove it, for Example:
    1. In New Mexico, You can Carry a Firearm into Public Buildings. Well..., in Georgia..., that is a Crime.
    2. In New Mexico, You can Carry a Firearm into Voting Booths, again..., in Georgia..., that is also a Crime.
    3. In New Mexico..., Openly Carrying a Loaded Pistol is Legal, no Permit Required. Try..., just try..., doing that in any Public Place in any Deep Southern State..., and see what happens...
    4. 19 Year-old with a Pistol..., in Georgia?..., He is going to Jail...

    I am Well Aware that Different States have Different Laws, and all I was trying to say, Politiely, is that I sided with Zachary J. Cook, in that, Responsible Law-Abiding Adult New Mexicans, especially those with Permits from The Department of Public Safety, should be Trusted AT ALL PLACES AT ALL TIMES..., Alcohol or Not.

    I was NOT/am NOT Angry in any Way, Shape, Form, or Fashion, and Your Reply was Overly Harsh...,

    I Understand and have Read New Mexican Law, and I also Agree with You..., Remember?

    You are The Most Influential Person on The New Mexican Post, Bar none, and if You Recall, I Contacted You, over This Very Forum, in Reference to an Inquiry as to whether or not New Mexico Allowed Firearms in Public Buildings..., to which You Replied in The Affirmative.

    My Post was Meant to be Informative, but if My Post Offended You, then, I will Immediately Remove it from This Forum.

    aadvark
    Last edited by aadvark; 02-23-2011 at 10:33 AM.

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    snoball:

    First of all..., NO Rant took Place. My Previous Post was Meant to be Informative and Inquisitive of New Mexican Law.

    I have Learned MANY Different Firearm Laws from MANY Different States.

    I believe in State Sovereignty..., and New Mexico can Make ANY Laws it wants. I just think Regualting what takes Place on Private Property, to wit.: Alcoholic Beverage Outlets; should be a Private Business Concern, not a State-wide Criminal Policy.

    I was on Zachary J Cook's Side when He Filed House Bill 136 before The New Mexican Legislative 2011 Session.

    Make no Mistake..., we are Working Tirelessly to Improve Our Laws here in Georgia as well.

    I would like to see New Mexican Laws Change for The Better of all New Mexican Citizen Residents in that, as I told Mr. Steve Aikens, who I well Respect, is that: Responsible Law-Abiding Adult New Mexicans, especially those with Permits from The Department of Public Safety, should be Trusted AT ALL PLACES AT ALL TIMES..., Alcohol or Not.

    In an Effort to make a Concession, as I told Mr. Steve Aikens, if My Post Offended You, then, I will Immediately Remove it from This Forum.

    aadvark
    Last edited by aadvark; 02-23-2011 at 10:47 AM.

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    Constitutional Guarantees -- or not

    New Mexico gun laws are far from perfect, but a heck of a lot better than those in some other states. Improvements to the laws here (and in other states) usually usually come in small steps. Constantly citing 2nd Amendment protections only goes so far. The 2nd Amendment is a law and, even if it is a part of the highest law in the land, it can be changed.

    Take a look at Amendments 18 and 21. The 18th Amendment prohibited the manufacture, sale and transportation of alcohol in this country. The law remained in effect for about 13 years, when the 21st Amendment repealed Prohibition. Now, one can argue whether this was a good thing or a bad thing, but it does point out that Constitutional Amendments are laws and laws can be changed.

    This is a tough year for improvements and incidents like this one in Albuquerque are just making it tougher.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveaikens View Post
    I'm not sure how to respond to that. The guy with the firearm was illegally displaying a firearms in a posted alcohol establishment. It's pretty hard to try to second guess the situation without being there. However, the fact that someone - regardless whether that someone was law enforcement or not - challenged the guy and he chose to fight instead of leaving the place leads me to believe there was far more to this than the guy was simply armed and eating a burger.

    The facts as we know them. The guy with the gun was violating the law. Then, armed, he chose to get into a fight. He committed a 4th degree felony and then added assault. He should have been arrested.

    First off, there's a difference in what's legal and what's moral. If you only base your values on the law and not higher standards of ethics, you are morally bankrupt. Being ignorant of the confusing firearms laws that aren't square with the state constitution is a victimless crime.

    The law that put the man away and will make him a convicted felon is immoral AND illegal (per the state constitution). That simply isn't right.

    I suggested that instructors like you and I can help by educating people on the law and that the rest of us can help by pushing for changes to improve the law and make it less confusing so stuff like this doesn't happen.

    What about that offends you?

    Quote Originally Posted by steveaikens View Post
    If you don't like our laws, and don't want to move, get your ass up here to Santa Fe during the legislative sessions, like I'm doing at this very moment, and get to work changing them to suit your needs.

    Ranting about them from the comfort of your home only serves to paint you as a do nothing whiner, waiting for someone else to do the work you SHOULD be doing.
    Not all of us have the time and resources to spend time lobbying in Santa Fe. We have jobs and other obligations that prevent it. To suggest that the rest of us who can't make it up to Santa Fe are somehow less entitled to our opinions....well, that's a very poor attitude to have.

    During your many hours in Santa Fe did you develop some sort of irrational emotional attachment to the current laws? Is it like some sort of little brother you can pick on, but nobody else can?

    I really don't see why you have to treat everybody else on the board so poorly over this.

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    Wow in Michigan people who don't have CPL cannot carry in ANY place with a liquor license whether its consumed or even sold. Surprised to see another state like that.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by PracticalTactical View Post
    First off, there's a difference in what's legal and what's moral. If you only base your values on the law and not higher standards of ethics, you are morally bankrupt. Being ignorant of the confusing firearms laws that aren't square with the state constitution is a victimless crime.

    The law that put the man away and will make him a convicted felon is immoral AND illegal (per the state constitution). That simply isn't right.
    What's confusing about them? NO open carry, period, in any alcohol establishments. End of story. That is rather easy to understand and anyone who can't follow that simple rule deserves what he gets, no matter what we think about the morals.

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    A.H. 74:

    Too Bad New Mexico is in The Minority of States where Firearm Carry in Alcohol Establishments is ILLEGAL.

    I Think Zachary J. Cook was on to something...

    aadvark

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    Quote Originally Posted by aadvark View Post
    A.H. 74:

    Too Bad New Mexico is in The Minority of States where Firearm Carry in Alcohol Establishments is ILLEGAL.

    I Think Zachary J. Cook was on to something...

    aadvark
    Not entirely, only without a permit. Last year the laws changed so that CC permit holders can carry concealed in places that sell such as stores and in restaurants/food establishments which are licensed to serve beer and wine only.

    Baby steps- hopefully the next one will be for cc in places with full liquor licenses.

    I think some of the issues NM has concerning alcohol relate to the serious problems the native American populations have had historically with alcoholism. Just my opinion in thinking about some of the history.

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    A.H.74:

    I Know The Exceptions under Current New Mexican Code 30-7-3, however; I still Think that Zachary Cook should have Filed a Bill that would have Authorized Open Carry, as well.

    aadvark

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    Hmmmm....

    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    What's confusing about them? NO open carry, period, in any alcohol establishments. End of story. That is rather easy to understand and anyone who can't follow that simple rule deserves what he gets, no matter what we think about the morals.
    Let's apply your way of thinking to another time period:
    "What's confusing about them? NO black people or mexicans, period, in the front of any bus. End of story. That is rather easy to understand and anyone who can't follow that simple rule deserves what he gets, no matter what we think about the morals."

    Simple truth is that people get arrested all the time in New Mexico for open carrying in liquor establishments because they didn't know the law. Try the same thing in Arizona, and guess what, NOTHING HAPPENS. The mere fact that people keep accidentally running afoul of the law proves that it's overly confusing.

    The law is the law, I get it, but we can still call a bad law a bad law and work to change it peacefully.

    That's all I stand for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PracticalTactical View Post
    Let's apply your way of thinking to another time period:
    "What's confusing about them? NO black people or mexicans, period, in the front of any bus. End of story. That is rather easy to understand and anyone who can't follow that simple rule deserves what he gets, no matter what we think about the morals."

    Simple truth is that people get arrested all the time in New Mexico for open carrying in liquor establishments because they didn't know the law. Try the same thing in Arizona, and guess what, NOTHING HAPPENS. The mere fact that people keep accidentally running afoul of the law proves that it's overly confusing.

    The law is the law, I get it, but we can still call a bad law a bad law and work to change it peacefully.

    That's all I stand for.
    This is absolutely ridiculous logic and it makes no sense at all.

    Comparing a civil rights discrimination issue to a gun law issue? Really?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    This is absolutely ridiculous logic and it makes no sense at all.

    Comparing a civil rights discrimination issue to a gun law issue? Really?
    "Gun law issue(s)" that discriminate aren't a civil rights matter? Really?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    This is absolutely ridiculous logic and it makes no sense at all.

    Comparing a civil rights discrimination issue to a gun law issue? Really?
    If the right to keep and bear arms isn't a civil right, then what sort of right would you categorize it as?

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    Would you people be for real? Discrimination of skin color versus the right to carry guns is not a logical argument.

    Perhaps I should have used better terminology.

    However, we are still talking about people who can't be bothered to know the laws. Carrying guns is serious business. You don't think it's necessary to know the details?

    Someone knows it's legal to open carry yet they don't know where it is or is not legal? You're making excuses for that kind of lack of responsibility? Seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AH.74 View Post
    Would you people be for real? Discrimination of skin color versus the right to carry guns is not a logical argument.

    Perhaps I should have used better terminology.

    However, we are still talking about people who can't be bothered to know the laws. Carrying guns is serious business. You don't think it's necessary to know the details?

    Someone knows it's legal to open carry yet they don't know where it is or is not legal? You're making excuses for that kind of lack of responsibility? Seriously?
    All you are doing is saying I am being ridiculous and asking me if I am serious.

    Why don't you logically point out the flaw in my argument instead of just trying to kick up an emotional smokescreen?

    I know they don't teach that sort of thing in school, and the talking heads never do that sort of thing, but I think you can do it

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    Quote Originally Posted by steveaikens View Post
    I'm not sure how to respond to that. The guy with the firearm was illegally displaying a firearms in a posted alcohol establishment. It's pretty hard to try to second guess the situation without being there. However, the fact that someone - regardless whether that someone was law enforcement or not - challenged the guy and he chose to fight instead of leaving the place leads me to believe there was far more to this than the guy was simply armed and eating a burger.

    The facts as we know them. The guy with the gun was violating the law. Then, armed, he chose to get into a fight. He committed a 4th degree felony and then added assault. He should have been arrested.
    Steve, you're in a big hurry to condemn the guy who was open carrying. You say you "know the facts." If someone comes up to you, claims to be a Federal Law Enforcement Officer, demands you surrender your firearm, refuses to show any ID himself, and then physically JUMPS YOU, are you going to simply walk away? Please explain how you plan to do that.

    How about a little slack for a fellow gun owner that's a victim of some lunatic who hasn't been taking his meds?

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