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National Concealed Carry Reciprocity Bill Introduced

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Butch00

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
215
Location
Alaska
What they are doing is getting more people to consent,
to the infringement of their right to bear arms.
If you sign an application for a permit, you are then consenting to a contract.
Why except a privilege in place of a right.
The right was there before the Constitution was written,
and they have no authority to stop you.
 
ep0k

ep0k

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2010
Messages
273
Location
Wiscasset, Maine, USA
According to your profile, you're in Alaska, which last time I checked has constitutional carry. We do not enjoy such a privilege in Maine or the majority of the US for that matter.

I'm an idealist. I would like a national return to constitutional carry. However, I'm also enough of a realist to know I won't accomplish that if I'm sitting in jail for violating gun laws. Whether the authority of a police officer to arrest you for CC without a permit is constitutionally legitimate, it is quite real. Alex Clendenning found that out last month.
 
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Butch00

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
215
Location
Alaska
I am wintering in Maine.

I stand on my rights.

Hale V Henkel (1906)
The individual may stand upon his constitutional rights as a citizen. He is entitled to carry on his private business in his own way. His power to contract is unlimited. He owes no duty to the state or to his neighbors to divulge his business, or to open his doors to an investigation, so far as it may tend to incriminate him. He owes no such duty to the state, since he receives nothing therefrom, beyond the protection of his life and property. His rights are such as existed by the law of the land long antecedent to the organization of the state, and can only be taken from him by due process of law, and in accordance with the Constitution. Among his rights are a refusal to incriminate himself, and the immunity of himself and his property from arrest or seizure except under a warrant of the law. He owes nothing to the public so long as he does not trespass upon their rights.
 
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boyscout399

Regular Member
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
905
Location
Lyman, Maine
Butch00 said:
I am wintering in Maine.

I stand on my rights.

Hale V Henkel (1906)
The individual may stand upon his constitutional rights as a citizen. He is entitled to carry on his private business in his own way. His power to contract is unlimited. He owes no duty to the state or to his neighbors to divulge his business, or to open his doors to an investigation, so far as it may tend to incriminate him. He owes no such duty to the state, since he receives nothing therefrom, beyond the protection of his life and property. His rights are such as existed by the law of the land long antecedent to the organization of the state, and can only be taken from him by due process of law, and in accordance with the Constitution. Among his rights are a refusal to incriminate himself, and the immunity of himself and his property from arrest or seizure except under a warrant of the law. He owes nothing to the public so long as he does not trespass upon their rights.
Click to expand...

Stand on your rights all you want, if you carry concealed without a permit and get found out, you will spend time in Jail. Enjoy it.
 
ep0k

ep0k

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2010
Messages
273
Location
Wiscasset, Maine, USA
boyscout399 said:
Stand on your rights all you want, if you carry concealed without a permit and get found out, you will spend time in Jail. Enjoy it.
Click to expand...

Bingo.

I get butch's point. A CCW permit is a contract regarding what should be a natural right. I agree. However, try using that defense in court.
 
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Butch00

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
215
Location
Alaska
Do you guys not read this stuff...

Maine Constitution
Article I.
Declaration of Rights
.
Section 1. Natural rights. All people are born equally free and independent, and have certain natural, inherent and unalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting property, and of pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness.

Section 2. Power inherent in people. All power is inherent in the people; all free governments are founded in their authority and instituted for their benefit; they have therefore an unalienable and indefeasible right to institute government, and to alter, reform, or totally change the same, when their safety and happiness require it.

Section 6-A. Discrimination against persons prohibited. No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law, nor be denied the equal protection of the laws, nor be denied the enjoyment of that person's civil rights or be discriminate

Section 16. To keep and bear arms. Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned.ed against in the exercise thereof.

Looks to me like you don't care if you get walked on or not.

Bangor police has an interesting web site.

Bangor , Maine Incorporated in 1791...That makes them a Municipal Corporation.
The Police are agents of a Corporation that take an Oath to uphold your Constitutional Rights.

If you don't force them to obey the Law then to bad.

I refuse to be a sheep.
 
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ep0k

ep0k

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2010
Messages
273
Location
Wiscasset, Maine, USA
Butch00 said:
Do you guys not read this stuff...

Maine Constitution
Article I.
Declaration of Rights
.
Section 1. Natural rights. All people are born equally free and independent, and have certain natural, inherent and unalienable rights, among which are those of enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting property, and of pursuing and obtaining safety and happiness.

Section 2. Power inherent in people. All power is inherent in the people; all free governments are founded in their authority and instituted for their benefit; they have therefore an unalienable and indefeasible right to institute government, and to alter, reform, or totally change the same, when their safety and happiness require it.

Section 6-A. Discrimination against persons prohibited. No person shall be deprived of life, liberty or property without due process of law, nor be denied the equal protection of the laws, nor be denied the enjoyment of that person's civil rights or be discriminate

Section 16. To keep and bear arms. Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned.ed against in the exercise thereof.

Looks to me like you don't care if you get walked on or not.

Bangor police has an interesting web site.

Bangor , Maine Incorporated in 1791...That makes them a Municipal Corporation.
The Police are agents of a Corporation that take an Oath to uphold your Constitutional Rights.

If you don't force them to obey the Law then to bad.

I refuse to be a sheep.
Click to expand...

No one who comments regularly in this forum is ignorant of constitutional law, bylaw, case history, or interpretation. Yes, I've read it. Yes, I agree with your interpretation. No, the rest of the country does not. Are you even reading what I'm saying? For that matter, "if you refuse to be a sheep", why don't I see you martyring yourself in court for the sake of upholding your constitutional rights? Enough with the internet tough guy routine.
 
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Butch00

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
215
Location
Alaska
Most likely you won't see me in court.....Court
has been set up to give you the allusion of justice,
costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time.
I will use civil process against the Corporate Agents
personally.
 
ep0k

ep0k

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2010
Messages
273
Location
Wiscasset, Maine, USA
Butch00 said:
Most likely you won't see me in court.....Court
has been set up to give you the allusion of justice,
costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time.
I will use civil process against the Corporate Agents
personally.
Click to expand...

That's funny, because that sounds an awful lot like what we've been doing for the last year. So much for not caring if we get walked on or not. Good day, sir.
 
B

boyscout399

Regular Member
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
905
Location
Lyman, Maine
Butch00 said:
Most likely you won't see me in court.....Court
has been set up to give you the allusion of justice,
costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time.
I will use civil process against the Corporate Agents
personally.
Click to expand...

So you refuse to use the courts? Okay, let me know how well that goes when you're arrested for concealed carry without a permit. How do you expect to avoid the arrest? By convincing the police that the law is unconstitutional? Yeah, good luck man. Make sure you do not associate yourself with MOCA if you choose the path of CCing without a permit as we support changing the laws, not breaking them on principle.

Also, a law is not unenforceable until it is declared to be unconstitutional by a judge. They WILL enforce the law if you are caught, as well they should.
 
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ep0k

ep0k

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2010
Messages
273
Location
Wiscasset, Maine, USA
boyscout399 said:
So you refuse to use the courts? Okay, let me know how well that goes when you're arrested for concealed carry without a permit. How do you expect to avoid the arrest? By convincing the police that the law is unconstitutional? Yeah, good luck man. Make sure you do not associate yourself with MOCA if you choose the path of CCing without a permit as we support changing the laws, not breaking them on principle.
Click to expand...

That would be another bingo.
 
B

Butch00

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
215
Location
Alaska
A Law that violates the Constitution is no LAW.

Until you understand Corporations and Civil Remedy's
It will do me no good to say anything more.
 
ep0k

ep0k

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2010
Messages
273
Location
Wiscasset, Maine, USA
Butch00 said:
A Law that violates the Constitution is no LAW.

Until you understand Corporations and Civil Remedy's
It will do me no good to say anything more.
Click to expand...

How about saying something substantive instead of coming off like a crank with a poor understanding of grammar, punctuation, and reality? Arguing with you is like talking to a broken record.
 
S

shanebelanger

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 25, 2009
Messages
667
Location
Freeport, Maine, United States
This is an interesting argument, one that really shouldn't be happening on the forums but regardless. Butch is correct in our ideology that the constitution is our right to carry. Of course, this must be fought before a judge, or changed in the house/senate yada yada. Until this happens you will be arrested for breaking the law, because that is the current law. Whether it is right or not doesn't really matter unless you do something to change it.

Although I do believe that permitting is unconstitutional I also know that I am not a lawyer. I have approached many lawyers, including Alan Gura and I haven't found one yet that thinks they can effectively argue that permitting is unconstitutional. In life, it's not simply opinion that makes things right and wrong... as in this case it's written in a very old document. A document that many people interpret very differently.

This wouldn't be the case if the founding fathers were alive today, but alas they are not with us anymore so we only have their words to go off of. And like anything, when you only have letters, memoirs etc. to determine the true meaning of the constitution some people among us will choose to omit what they do not like. Whether this is right or not is irrelevant, it's the society we live in. All we can do is fight to change this.
 
crdonov

crdonov

Regular Member
Joined
May 16, 2010
Messages
463
Location
south portland, Maine, USA
shanebelanger said:
This is an interesting argument, one that really shouldn't be happening on the forums but regardless. Butch is correct in our ideology that the constitution is our right to carry. Of course, this must be fought before a judge, or changed in the house/senate yada yada. Until this happens you will be arrested for breaking the law, because that is the current law. Whether it is right or not doesn't really matter unless you do something to change it.

Although I do believe that permitting is unconstitutional I also know that I am not a lawyer. I have approached many lawyers, including Alan Gura and I haven't found one yet that thinks they can effectively argue that permitting is unconstitutional. In life, it's not simply opinion that makes things right and wrong... as in this case it's written in a very old document. A document that many people interpret very differently.

This wouldn't be the case if the founding fathers were alive today, but alas they are not with us anymore so we only have their words to go off of. And like anything, when you only have letters, memoirs etc. to determine the true meaning of the constitution some people among us will choose to omit what they do not like. Whether this is right or not is irrelevant, it's the society we live in. All we can do is fight to change this.
Click to expand...

right on!!!

xd-over
 
B

boyscout399

Regular Member
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
905
Location
Lyman, Maine
Butch00 said:
A Law that violates the Constitution is no LAW.

Until you understand Corporations and Civil Remedy's
It will do me no good to say anything more.
Click to expand...

that will not stop them from arresting you and throwing you in jail and you spending time in jail, get fired from your job, spend lots of money in attorney's fees ect.
 
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