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Thread: Apt. Building Open Carry

  1. #1
    Regular Member civilwarguy's Avatar
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    Question Apt. Building Open Carry

    So i ran into an interesting situation today and not sure how the laws apply to it.

    I live in a apt. building and i know i can carry in my own apt. being that it is a private residence however my neighbor has a problem with me OC and is threatening to call the landloard cause i OC to take out the trash. How does Common areas in a apt. building fit with the law who can make the decision there? i would just like to know so if the landlord comes knocking i can make my case and make sure i am not giving up any rights i have.

    Thanks in advance for any insite....

  2. #2
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    If I were in that position, and the landlord did ask me about it, I would just let him/her know that it is legal in Wisconsin. That it is no threat to anyone, and that SOON CCW will be the law of our land. At that point if he/she still does have an issue with OC, I would ask what he/she will do when CCW does pass? Will he/she try to ban ALL carry of guns in the building? And what will happen if the criminals find out that you have a gun free apartment building? We don't have any 1000 foot gun free zone for apartments, so crime could happen.
    I would not stop my OC. I would wait for the landlord to talk to me. You are doing nothing wrong. I hope your landlord sees it that way also.

  3. #3
    Regular Member civilwarguy's Avatar
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    i plan on continuing to OC i guess a better way to phrase the question is if the landlord say she doesnt want OC does that mean it would be illegal to OC in common areas? i know she can't stop me from it in my apt cause it wasnt in the lease i signed when i moved in but i wasnt sure if she can ban it from hallways parking lots etc. that is not with in my apt.

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    I think that would be answered by paying someone for the information. But in my understanding, the Landlord owns the property so s\he controls it, except what you lease. So if the landlord says no, then I think that means NO. But waiting and discussing it with them is the best.
    Here is a WI Open Carry pamphlet you could use as reference:

    Link to Download
    Last edited by Motofixxer; 02-25-2011 at 06:54 PM.
    Click Here for New to WI Open Carry Legal References and Informational Videos--- FAQ's http://Tinyurl.com/OpenCarry-WI

    The Armed Badger A WI site dedicated to Concealed Carry in WI

    "To disarm the people... was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." -- George Mason, Speech of June 14, 1788

    http://Tinyurl.com/New-To-Guns to DL useful Info

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    I think that would be answered by paying someone for the information. But in my understanding, the Landlord owns the property so s\he controls it, except what you lease. So if the landlord says no, then I think that means NO. But waiting and discussing it with them is the best.
    Here is a WICarry pamphlet you could use as reference:

    Link to download
    http://www.box.net/shared/xe3usv6fl8
    +1

    I believe it falls into the same arena as any other business property. More than anything because it is a source of income for the property owners. So they do have a right to post No Carry signs. But they can not stop you from carrying in your residence, as that is considered your 'Home".
    I am Calico Jack,,,, And I approve this message!
    (Paid for by the blood of patriots, and Calico Jack Defense)
    Calico Jack Defense

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    It is your legal right to egress, to open carry in common areas, if there is nothing in your Lease to the contrary. You should realize that your Landlord can make your remaining term less than pleasant, and it will always remain their property. I would also suggest you avoid loitering in common areas when armed.

  7. #7
    Regular Member LR Yote 312's Avatar
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    Read the fine print of your lease.
    If nothing is mentioned,you should be GTG.

    LR Yote
    *NOTE: No Longer under the tyranny of Milwaukee County.


    Watch your thoughts; they become words.
    Watch your words; they become actions.
    Watch your actions; they become habits.
    Watch your habits; they become character.
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  8. #8
    Regular Member civilwarguy's Avatar
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    as an update i have re read the lease in detail and there is no mention against firearms.. No contact from landlord yet Still OCing around the building while do simple chores (laundry, mail, taking out trash.) The neighbor still gives dirty looks when he sees it but after some chatting with my SO we have decided that is the landlord says no OC on the property there will be a new pistol in our future and she will OC around the apt as well not to mention all our fellow OC friends will be encouraged to do so when they visit us (inside apt of course). I figure i will continue to exercise my right anywhere and everywhere i can and welcome everyone to do the same in my apt.


    Hope this makes sense my typing and brain seem to have some sort of block today

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Makes sense to me.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member xd40arff's Avatar
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    Civil War Guy,
    Welcome to the forum, I can't say I have ever seen you post. So if I read that correctly your landlord did state that you cannot OC? Im also from the Elkhorn Area. You should come out to the OC Meet and Greet on the first Sunday of the month in Delavan if you haven't been there yet. The thread is stickied.

  11. #11
    Regular Member civilwarguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xd40arff View Post
    Civil War Guy,
    Welcome to the forum, I can't say I have ever seen you post. So if I read that correctly your landlord did state that you cannot OC? Im also from the Elkhorn Area. You should come out to the OC Meet and Greet on the first Sunday of the month in Delavan if you haven't been there yet. The thread is stickied.
    She hasnt said it yet. I have a neighbor who is threating to call her and the cops any time he sees me outside of my apt. If i am OC. I plan on trying to make it to the meet and greet. Paul was nice enough to help me out with my first time OC at the elkhorn walker rally. I look forward to meeting with fellow OC supporters.

  12. #12
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    You may wish to provide your neighbor with the WI Attorney General's opinion about Open Carry. Rather than be adversarial, you might with to engage him/her in a discussion (when you are not carrying) about the second amendment - including the SCOTUS decision that it is an individual right.

    Odds are, guns frighten him/her. Provide truthful information about the use of personal protection firearms in other States preventing crimes. I am an ex-LEO from Wi and I know from experience that folks who have not lived in the gun friendly States easily succumb to the myth that open carry or concealed carry laws results in hundreds of thousands being killed every hour.

    If you are really bold, invite him/her to a range (hopefully with a properly credentialed firearms instructor present) to demonstrate that fear of firearms is unnecessary.

    Just saying....

    I am not a lawyer and do not play one on TV - and I did not sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

  13. #13
    Regular Member civilwarguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    You may wish to provide your neighbor with the WI Attorney General's opinion about Open Carry. Rather than be adversarial, you might with to engage him/her in a discussion (when you are not carrying) about the second amendment - including the SCOTUS decision that it is an individual right.

    Odds are, guns frighten him/her. Provide truthful information about the use of personal protection firearms in other States preventing crimes. I am an ex-LEO from Wi and I know from experience that folks who have not lived in the gun friendly States easily succumb to the myth that open carry or concealed carry laws results in hundreds of thousands being killed every hour.

    If you are really bold, invite him/her to a range (hopefully with a properly credentialed firearms instructor present) to demonstrate that fear of firearms is unnecessary.

    Just saying....

    I am not a lawyer and do not play one on TV - and I did not sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
    he is one who is just not gonna be changed he is a retired marine and we have always got along due to that conection he is just of the opinion that its the job of the police to protect and that any one who carries is just a vigilante and no matter the law in his mind it isnt right.

    trying to change is mind is like

  14. #14
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    I know how hard it can be talking to a Jar-Head. Only another Jar-Head can penetrate the nonsense.

    My NRA Training Counselor (the NRA Training Counselor that instructed me in my NRA ratings) is a former sniper for Marine Force Recon. His chief instructor is also a fprmer member of Marine force recon. (www.doatactical.com). Direct your neighbor there.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

  15. #15
    Regular Member civilwarguy's Avatar
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    i am a jarhard (discharged honorably) and i have tried to get through to him. but i figure cant change everyone and as i told himi respect his opinon but at the same time i expect him to respect mine.

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    I am...

    A Landlord, A current Criminal Justice attendee and Advocate of Open Carry...

    You have every right to carry in your apartment and any common areas of the property. NO ONE can take that away from you. The landlord can not put that in a lease agreement anymore than a landlord could take away your right to free speech in a lease agreement. The only option the landlord has IF the landlord does not like you exercising your rights is to wait until your lease expires and then give you a 30 day notice to vacate at the end of your lease or the end of the next month if you have completed your original lease and have continued on a month to month basis. The landlord does not need to give a reason - and should not give a reason. The landlord is also able to give you a 30 day notice to increase rent or vacate - which gives you the option to leave if you do not agree to the increased rent. I, as the landlord, would tell the neighbor that you are not breaking the law and are within your rights to open carry...If the neighbor wishes to move, so be it.

  17. #17
    Regular Member civilwarguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P229Sig357DAK View Post
    A Landlord, A current Criminal Justice attendee and Advocate of Open Carry...

    You have every right to carry in your apartment and any common areas of the property. NO ONE can take that away from you. The landlord can not put that in a lease agreement anymore than a landlord could take away your right to free speech in a lease agreement. The only option the landlord has IF the landlord does not like you exercising your rights is to wait until your lease expires and then give you a 30 day notice to vacate at the end of your lease or the end of the next month if you have completed your original lease and have continued on a month to month basis. The landlord does not need to give a reason - and should not give a reason. The landlord is also able to give you a 30 day notice to increase rent or vacate - which gives you the option to leave if you do not agree to the increased rent. I, as the landlord, would tell the neighbor that you are not breaking the law and are within your rights to open carry...If the neighbor wishes to move, so be it.
    Thank you for this info as we are still under our lease and i know the neighbor is on a month to month. So this info is most helpful incase the landlord does try to say anything.

  18. #18
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by civilwarguy
    he is just of the opinion that its the job of the police to protect
    Wow.
    Really not up on the law, nor on Court rulings, is he?
    SCOTUS decided that the police are not legally required to protect anyone who's not in custody. So have other, lower courts. They can't be sued for not responding to a 911 call, even if you're screaming that your ex is breaking down the door with a fire ax & you have a restraining order against him.

    Or (in the real case from DC in 1981) even if there have been several calls for one incident, and the callers are taken prisoner, abused, raped, etc. over the next 14h by the criminals who'd broken into their house.
    ["it is a fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen. Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981).]

    Besides, absent the physical inability to defend yourself, outsourcing your personal protection is pretty arrogant. He's saying that his life is more important that that of the officers he'd call to deal with a Bad Guy.
    I'll call them as soon as I can, whether the BG is still rummaging around downstairs or lying bleeding in the hall outside my bedroom. But I am my first defense.
    Not what I'd expect from a Marine.
    Not at all.
    Disappointing.
    (BTW, there are no 'former' Marines.)

    Also, does he have any idea what the average response time is once he's gotten to a phone & explained to the calltaker what & where the problem is? If he's being attacked, he's not going to be allowed any time to make that call.

    This page discusses a dozen or so cases, and provides citations to more (below):
    http://randysright.wordpress.com/201...ce-protection/

    Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982) (no federal constitutional requirement that police provide protection)

    Calogrides v. Mobile, 475 So. 2d 560 (Ala. 1985); Cal Govt. Code 845 (no liability for failure to provide police protection)

    Davidson v. Westminster, 32 Cal.3d 197, 185, Cal. Rep. 252; 649 P.2d 894 (1982) (no liability for failure to provide police protection)

    Stone v. State 106 Cal.App.3d 924, 165 Cal Rep. 339 (1980) (no liability for failure to provide police protection)

    Morgan v. District of Columbia, 468 A.2d 1306 (D.C.App. 1983) (no liability for failure to provide police protection)

    Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C.App 1981) (no liability for failure to provide police protection)

    Sapp v. Tallahassee, 348 So.2d 363 (Fla. App. 1st Dist.), cert. denied 354 So.2d 985 (Fla. 1977); Ill. Rec. Stat. 4-102 (no liability for failure to provide police protection)

    Keane v. Chicago, 98 Ill. App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321 (1st Dist. 1968) (no liability for failure to provide police protection)

    Jamison v. Chicago, 48 Ill. App. 3d 567 (1st Dist. 1977) (no liability for failure to provide police protection)

    Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville, 272 N.E.2d 871 (Ind. App.) (no liability for failure to provide police protection)

    Silver v. Minneapolis, 170 N.W.2d 206 (Minn. 1969) (no liability for failure to provide police protection)

    Wuetrich V. Delia, 155 N.J. Super. 324, 326, 382, A.2d 929, 930 cert. denied 77 N.J. 486, 391 A.2d 500 (1978) (no liability for failure to provide police protection)

    Chapman v. Philadelphia, 290 Pa. Super. 281, 434 A.2d 753 (Penn. 1981) (no liability for failure to provide police protection)

    Morris v. Musser, 84 Pa. Cmwth. 170, 478 A.2d 937 (1984) (no liability for failure to provide police protection)

  19. #19
    Regular Member civilwarguy's Avatar
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    i know what you mean and as i said have tried to explain this to but have just settled on the opinon that his beliefs are his beliefs no use wasting my breathe on him any more.

    i know there is no such thing as a former marine, but i believe the exception is one who says they are a former marine (as he has many times)

  20. #20
    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by civilwarguy View Post
    i know what you mean and as i said have tried to explain this to but have just settled on the opinon that his beliefs are his beliefs no use wasting my breathe on him any more.

    i know there is no such thing as a former marine, but i believe the exception is one who says they are a former marine (as he has many times)
    My Dad made it abundantly clear to me when I was much younger and an Officer in the US Army (and he reinforced it when I side stepped to the US Air Force) - I am a US Veteran - He is a Marine. He may have taken off his uniform in 1945, but he is still a Marine. He participated in nearly every major battle in the Pacific from Guadalcanal to Iowa Jima. When I was commissioned, he attended the Ceremony in his (now outdated) WWII Marine Corporal's uniform. We buried him 4 years ago with full Military Honors.

    In an earlier post, I made reference to a "former" Marine Sniper. He may no longer be a "Marine Force Recon Sniper", but he is still a (retired) Marine. My point? - I am not accusing your neighbor of such, but he may be overstating what is actually on his DD-214 (department of Defense Form 214 is a person's Military History). If there is one thing my experiences have taught me, it is that a Marine is Marine for life. I have never met one that used "former" and "Marine" in the same sentence.

    Just saying.....

    I am not a current (or former) member of the United States Marine Corps and have never played one on TV. But my Dad was, and while he has never played one on TV, he did serve with several Movie Stars of the 1940's (most notably Tyrone Powers - who was in his unit).
    Last edited by jpm84092; 02-27-2011 at 11:02 PM.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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