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Open Carry *MAY* already be legal - An Assignment

Aknazer

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Oklahoma already has legal OC. Self defense has been declared legal by your constitution. Therefore, OCing for self defense must be ruled legal.

Posted using my HTC Evo

And there's no legal precedent for it along with anyone you ask in a position of "power" stating it's illegal. So until there is a legal precedent set (court case, AG ruling, change of laws to specifically state for SD as a legal reason to carry, etc) it isn't something one can do. And while I wouldn't mind being the OC guinnea pig, I simply can't afford to do it given my job and financial situation.

Also our laws are in conflict with each other. 1272 defines unlawful carry and gives exceptions to allow carry, but then in 1289.6 it outlines "Condititions Under Which Firearms May Be Carried" and it is in 1289.6 where you find the "legitimate purpose" wording. So even if OC is argued as legal via 1289.6 you are still in violation of 1272, and until there is a legal precedent or a change in the law people aren't willing to risk it. Now if someone could cover all of my financial costs (incuding potential repercussions with work) and legal council I would be willing to OC to set the precedent. But I can't afford that and as such I am working with local groups to get the laws changed. It's slower (or maybe not given how long court cases can go on for), but it's safer and we are winning the fight.
 

hrdware

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Oklahoma already has legal OC. Self defense has been declared legal by your constitution. Therefore, OCing for self defense must be ruled legal.

Posted using my HTC Evo

The problem is that your statement is future tense, meaning it will have to go to court to be proven. Most of us here don't have the time or funds to try and prove that. And when it all comes down to it, it depends on if the judge believes it to be legal or not.
 

hermannr

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As the sheep roll over and play dead. They do not want to stand up for what is right and truthfull.

1272 is most definately contrary to your state constitution. You state constitution specifically says "Cannot be prohibited" 1272 is direct and absolute conflict with that statement in your constitution. Even you most liberal activist judge would agree here. When a law directly conflicts with the constitution, it is not a law. It is absolutely that simple.

Ok Constitution Article II section 26

Section II-26: Bearing arms - Carrying weapons.
The right of a citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his
home, person, or property
,
or in aid of the civil power, when
thereunto legally summoned, shall never be prohibited; but
nothing herein contained shall prevent the Legislature from
regulating the carrying of weapons.

My bold for emphasis.


Tile 21-1272
It shall be unlawful for any person to carry upon or about his or her
person, or in a purse or other container belonging to the person, any
pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle whether loaded or unloaded or any
dagger, bowie knife, dirk knife, switchblade knife, spring-type knife,
sword cane, knife having a blade which opens automatically by hand
pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of
the knife, blackjack, loaded cane, billy, hand chain, metal knuckles,
or any other offensive weapon, whether such weapon be concealed or
unconcealed, except this section shall not prohibit:

2. The carrying or use of weapons in a manner otherwise permitted by
statute or authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Section 1290.1
et seq. of this title; or

Totally invalid. They cannot "prohibit", only regulate according to the state constitution. Therefore, by the very first paragraph of 1272 they have flung a cape over the constitution of Oklahoma and said we are going to do what we want to. We don't care what the state constitution says.
 

Aknazer

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Well from what I have heard, most of the OK gun laws were signed into effect by a govenor who either had a felony(ies) or was later convicted of a felony(ies) so it shouldn't really be a surprise that he crapped on the constitution. But it still doesn't change the fact that it isn't easy to get the laws changed and that most of use can't afford to fight it by getting arrested in order to get the ball rolling in the courts.

Not to mention that you still have to get past the arguement that it isn't "prohibited" but simply "regulated" since the overall law does allow for OC in certain situations and CC with a license. And that can really go either way in the courts much like "shall not be infringed" ends up going either way depending on the judge.
 

FireHawk911

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Tulsa
Stonewalled!!!

:banghead: So I tried to get info on this today. Started with the local DA, they "could not" comment, they refered me to the AG, the as well "could not" comment and refered me to the OSBI who stated Oklahoma does not have OC only CC. Asked about the State Constitution and transfered me to the Self Defence department who told me they only deal with CC.
 

Grapeshot

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Valhalla
:banghead: So I tried to get info on this today. Started with the local DA, they "could not" comment, they refered me to the AG, the as well "could not" comment and refered me to the OSBI who stated Oklahoma does not have OC only CC. Asked about the State Constitution and transfered me to the Self Defence department who told me they only deal with CC.

Consider asking a member of your legislative branch to pose a carefully worded question to your state attorney general - a positive formal opinion would bode well.
 

FireHawk911

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Location
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Consider asking a member of your legislative branch to pose a carefully worded question to your state attorney general - a positive formal opinion would bode well.


Very good idea, I will make a call right now!! Thank you!!:banana::monkey
 

FireHawk911

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Tulsa
also in reading the above posts, my father-in-law asked about Private Property. Can he OC wile say working on his car in his driveway or planting flowers in the garden?
 

Aknazer

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also in reading the above posts, my father-in-law asked about Private Property. Can he OC wile say working on his car in his driveway or planting flowers in the garden?

I don't have my firearms law booklet in front of me so I can't cite all the crazy laws atm, but from the guys at OK2A the answer is...it depends. If his private property is not in city limits then he can legally OC , while if he is within city limits then he can't. The reason is because it is legal to OC while target shooting and in a few other very specific situations. If one is within city limits then the city will have local laws that ban a resident from discharging the weapon for things such as target practice which means that you would either be breaking the OC law, or that you were breaking (or planning on breaking) one of the weapon discharge laws. While if you are out of city limits you "can" target shoot on your property and thus that is how one would get around the law.

Though if you are OCing on your property outside of city limits and a cop asks it is best to not answer why you're OCing the gun. Depending on how you answer the question they could use that to arrest you as you could give a reason for OCing that isn't legal.
 
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FireHawk911

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Tulsa
I don't have my firearms law booklet in front of me so I can't cite all the crazy laws atm, but from the guys at OK2A the answer is...it depends. If his private property is not in city limits then he can legally OC , while if he is within city limits then he can't. The reason is because it is legal to OC while target shooting and in a few other very specific situations. If one is within city limits then the city will have local laws that ban a resident from discharging the weapon for things such as target practice which means that you would either be breaking the OC law, or that you were breaking (or planning on breaking) one of the weapon discharge laws. While if you are out of city limits you "can" target shoot on your property and thus that is how one would get around the law.

Though if you are OCing on your property outside of city limits and a cop asks it is best to not answer why you're OCing the gun. Depending on how you answer the question they could use that to arrest you as you could give a reason for OCing that isn't legal.

:banghead: I Informed him that because he lives in Tulsa city limits, he can not OC. He is not happy. Said "I don't pay property taxes so the Government can tell me what I can and can not do on my property" then said he would just OC inside the house. I love that guy lol
 

Aknazer

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:banghead: I Informed him that because he lives in Tulsa city limits, he can not OC. He is not happy. Said "I don't pay property taxes so the Government can tell me what I can and can not do on my property" then said he would just OC inside the house. I love that guy lol

Either today or tomorrow I'll try to pull all the applicable laws regarding OCing for you. But ultimately it would be a risk and he could end up in court even if one manages to find a legal way to OC on their property within city limits. One of the issues is that the laws contradict each other (I believe it is 1272 and 1272.6 that are in conflict, but I'll have to check later), in addition to contradicting the OK Constitution. And it is these contradictions that could end up causing one to go to court (though with the right case and lawyer it could be a good way to potentially get the laws removed).
 

FireHawk911

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Either today or tomorrow I'll try to pull all the applicable laws regarding OCing for you. But ultimately it would be a risk and he could end up in court even if one manages to find a legal way to OC on their property within city limits. One of the issues is that the laws contradict each other (I believe it is 1272 and 1272.6 that are in conflict, but I'll have to check later), in addition to contradicting the OK Constitution. And it is these contradictions that could end up causing one to go to court (though with the right case and lawyer it could be a good way to potentially get the laws removed).

Durring my research that is what I have noticed, one can not make heads or tails of the firearms law because somewhere down the line there is another law contridicting it.:banghead::banghead::banghead: so frustrating! Any material you could provide would be helpful. Thanks
 

Aknazer

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California
Title 21 1271 through 1290.26 is all of the OK gun laws.

Here's a bit of what 1272 UNLAWFUL CARRY says:

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry upon or about his or her person, or in a purse or other container belonging to the person, any pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle whether loaded or unloaded or any dagger, bowie knife, dirk knife, switchblade knife, spring-type knife, sword cane, knife having a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife, blackjack, loaded cane, billy, hand chain, metal knuckles, or any other offensive weapon, whether such weapon be concealed or unconcealed, except this section shall not prohibit:

1. The proper use of guns and knives for hunting, fishing, educational or recreational purposes;

2. The carrying or use of weapons in a manner otherwise permitted by statute or authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act;...

Then here is what 1289.6 says (I was wrong earlier when I said 1272.6, it's 1289.6)

A. A person shall be permitted to carry loaded and unloaded shotguns, rifles and pistols, open and not concealed and without a handgun license as authorized by the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Sections 1 through 25 of this act, pursuant to the following conditions:

1. When hunting animals or fowl;

2. During competition in or practicing in a safety or hunter safety class, target shooting, skeet, trap or other recognized sporting events;

3. During participation in or in preparation for a military function of the state military forces to be defined as the Oklahoma Army or Air National Guard, Federal Military Reserve and active military forces;

4. During participation in or in preparation for a recognized police function of either a municipal, county or state government as functioning police officials;

5. During a practice for or a performance for entertainment purposes; or

6. For any legitimate purpose not in violation of the Oklahoma Firearms Act of 1971, Sections 1289.1 through 1289.17 of this title or any legislative enactment regarding the use, ownership and control of firearms.

So the closest reason to why someone within city limits could OC would be because of #6 of 1289.6 but then you run into the issue that even though the state Constitution states having a weapon for self defense is a legitimate reason, 1272 specifically bans any type of carry and there is no STATUTE authorizing the carry. I bolded the important part since 1289.1 through 1289.17 doesn't cover the banning of OCing, but 1272 does and applies to 1289.6 via the bolded part. So 1272 is in direct conflict with the state Constitution, but w/o a statute codifying it as legal you can't satisfy 1272, and w/o satisfying 1272 you are in violation of the bolded part of 1289.6. Fun going in circles isn't it :banghead:

The state Constitution also states how the legislature may regulate but NOT prohibit weapons for self defense. Which makes 1272 unconstitutional as it flat out prohibits the carrying of arms regardless of the reason.
 
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FireHawk911

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Location
Tulsa
Title 21 1271 through 1290.26 is all of the OK gun laws.

Here's a bit of what 1272 UNLAWFUL CARRY says:



Then here is what 1289.6 says (I was wrong earlier when I said 1272.6, it's 1289.6)



So the closest reason to why someone within city limits could OC would be because of #6 of 1289.6 but then you run into the issue that even though the state Constitution states having a weapon for self defense is a legitimate reason, 1272 (which is part of the OK Firearms Act of 1971) specifically bans any type of carry and there is no STATUTE authorizing the carry. So 1272 is in direct conflict with the state Constitution, but w/o a statute codifying it as legal you can't satisfy 1272, and w/o satisfying 1272 you are in violation of 1289.6. Fun going in circles isn't it :banghead:

The state Constitution also states how the legislature may regulate but NOT prohibit weapons for self defense. Which makes 1272 unconstitutional as it flat out prohibits the carrying of arms regardless of the reason.

I'm now seeing stars lol, Thanks
 

hermannr

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also in reading the above posts, my father-in-law asked about Private Property. Can he OC wile say working on his car in his driveway or planting flowers in the garden?

They have no control over what you do on your own property: Where do you think you live,? DC? My highlight

TITLE 21 § 1290.22 BUSINESS OWNER’S RIGHTS
A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, nothing contained in any provision of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Section 1290.1 et seq. of this title, shall be construed to limit, restrict or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of any person, property owner, tenant, employer, or business entity to control the possession of weapons on any property owned or controlled by the person or business entity.
 

hrdware

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They have no control over what you do on your own property: Where do you think you live,? DC? My highlight

TITLE 21 § 1290.22 BUSINESS OWNER’S RIGHTS
A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, nothing contained in any provision of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Section 1290.1 et seq. of this title, shall be construed to limit, restrict or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of any person, property owner, tenant, employer, or business entity to control the possession of weapons on any property owned or controlled by the person or business entity.

Your quote deals specifically with the Oklahoma Self Defense Act which only talks about CC. Therefore you could not use 1290.22 as any kind of defense for OC.

1289.6 specifically states when (not where) you may carry a loaded firearm. So unless you are participating in one of these activities, you are violating the law, even if it is on your own property.

After listening to the interim study from the public safety committee, hopefully they will try and remove many of the contradictions from our laws this year.
 

hermannr

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I disagree hrdware: It says "restrict or prohibit in any manner". Just because it is in the section of the law that covers CC, 1272 states it's prohibitions hold "except as specified in 1290".

As 1272 prohibits "all carry", it is reasonable to assume that section 1290 deals with "all allowed carry".

Anyway, this section is really reitterating personal property rights, and does not have anything to do with any carry. It simple says, "the state cannot restrict what you do on your own property." and I am sure, if you were arrested for OC on your own property, you would never be procecuted, and if you were procecuted you would receive summery judgement.

I personnally don't think they would even arrest you in the first place. As I have said before, the only place you could have a problem that I know of is Washington DC, and would be only until a couple more of the court cases get through to the Supreme court.
 

Aknazer

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I disagree hrdware: It says "restrict or prohibit in any manner". Just because it is in the section of the law that covers CC, 1272 states it's prohibitions hold "except as specified in 1290".

As 1272 prohibits "all carry", it is reasonable to assume that section 1290 deals with "all allowed carry".

Anyway, this section is really reitterating personal property rights, and does not have anything to do with any carry. It simple says, "the state cannot restrict what you do on your own property." and I am sure, if you were arrested for OC on your own property, you would never be procecuted, and if you were procecuted you would receive summery judgement.

I personnally don't think they would even arrest you in the first place. As I have said before, the only place you could have a problem that I know of is Washington DC, and would be only until a couple more of the court cases get through to the Supreme court.

The issue is this bit "...nothing contained in any provision of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Section 1290.1 et seq. of this title..." 1272 isn't a part of of that and thus isn't affected by 1290.22 as 1290.22 only exempts one from any part of 1290.1 through 1290.26 that would limit one's ability to carry. The only part that even deals with carry is 1290.4 and it only talks about concealed carry even though it references 1272.
 

hermannr

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As I said earlier, this section of 1290.22 is really about property rights, not gun rights. I think what is it saying is 1272 and 1290 are not to be considered to infringe on a persons real property rights. (as in: secure in person and property in the 4th ammendment, and whatever section of the OK constition equates to the 4th)

Consider your F&W laws. Can you hunt with a handgun? Can you carry when you hunt or fish? Do you have to have a CC license to carry at all when you hunt and fish? If you can hunt in OK with a handgun, and if you do not have to have a CC license to do so, you will have proof that not all carry is regulated by 1290..Right?

Unfortunately, I do not have time rght now to look up your F&W law, but if OK is like most other states it is legal to hunt with a handgun...and I would also lay odds that you do not need a CPL to do so, and I bet that you can OC that hunting handgun.

All I am trying to do with this argument is to show that 1272, and 1290 are not as "exclusive" as you believe them to be.

1272 Flys in the face of your constitition, I still cannot believe it has not be challenged...
 
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