country.hacker
Regular Member
Hey guys, was hoping to get some input on this. I considered myself pretty knowledgeable about my rights and responsibilities as an open carry advocate, but my first real interaction with a LEO made me realize I don't really know all that I need to. Before I begin, I know some of you guys will think I "wussed out" or didn't stand up for my rights, and maybe you're right, so I'm sorry in advance. I was on a date with my wife and I didn't want to mess up her evening, and like I said, some of the things that happened made me realize I don't know everything I should about carrying. Anyway, to the story...
Last night I took my wife out on a date to Olive Garden, then skating at the Riverfront Park Ice Palace in Spokane. As always, I was open carrying my Kimber 1911 in a holster with a retention strap that feeds between the hammer and slide (This bit is important later). No trouble at dinner, and for the first 20 minutes or so of skating I notice a few looks at my piece, but nobody says anything. Then two official looking guys in security jackets and earpieces wave me off of the rink and ask to talk to me. One guy did most of the talking, let's call him "Jerry", and boy did he seem agitated.
He asked why I was open carrying, as soon as I started with "It's my second amendment..." he cut me off with a dismissive wave of his hand and a "Yeah yeah, it's your damned right". Nice. He asked to see my ID. I took a long, obvious look at his "Security" badge on his jacket, and told him I wasn't required to let him see it, which seemed to piss him off even more. He informed me that he was a Spokane County Sheriff's deputy, and that I was required to show him my ID. Okay, so unless I'm operating a motor vehicle he still doesn't have the right to demand my ID, but I want to try to defuse the situation a little, so I let him see it. He hands it to his buddy, let's call him "Bobby", who walked a little distance away to run it over the radio, make sure I wasn't a dangerous criminal. (Who's ice skating with his wife. Right.)
It's at this point that he gives me a passionate, profanity laced lecture on how open carrying is fine just when you're walking around, but when you're ice skating it's very dangerous and considered reckless endangerment. If I slipped and fell and my gun went off and killed somebody, I'd be held liable. Okay, now at no time did he ask if my gun was loaded (It was, I carry condition 1, but there's no way he could know that), and when I asked if he was familiar with the 1911 and how when there's a retention strap between the hammer and the slide there's no way in the world the gun is discharging, he was again very dismissive, he didn't care about that. He left me with the idea that it was less about public safety and more about people complaining, and him wanting to assert his authority.
So Bobby comes back with a negative on my ID, I've never gotten so much as a parking ticket in my life. Jerry gives me an ultimatum, either take the gun off, or leave the rink. I ask point blank "You're telling me it's illegal to ice skate while open carrying?" to which he responds "Yes it damn well is illegal". Again, I believe he was in the wrong, but as the evening was supposed to be about my wife and I'd rather not end up in the back of a police car, I agree to remove the gun and put it in my car for the rest of the evening. I did ask for his card, which he had to go back to his office for, and he showed me his County Sheriff's ID which matched his name.
So finally, here's what I'm unsure about:
A) What is the definition of Reckless Endangerment, and is ice skating while open carrying considered so? Is there a good solid definition, or is it at the discretion of the LEO?
B) Jerry was (seemingly) off duty at the time, working a second job as a security guard for the park. (Right? Or since he's working for the park, is that considered on duty? The card he gave me was for the Spokane City Parks and Recreation district) Can off duty LEOs require ID, make arrests, etc?
(I know the "FREEEDOMMM" thing to do is ask if you're being detained, if not then walk away, if yes then give nothing but name and address). Depending on some answers I get here I'm totally going back some evening and making a stand when I don't have my wife or kids with me.
I'll also be contacting the County Sheriff's office and filing a complaint, Jerry was extremely rude and vulgar, in no way acting like a public servant should.
So do you guys have any words of wisdom, advice? I'd love to hear from some people with more experience than I have, because I'm not going to stop carrying, but I really would like to be prepared for this same situation. Thanks for sticking through the wall of text.
TL: DR version: Ice Palace security who are also cops rudely told me I couldn't skate while open carrying because it was reckless endangerment.
Last night I took my wife out on a date to Olive Garden, then skating at the Riverfront Park Ice Palace in Spokane. As always, I was open carrying my Kimber 1911 in a holster with a retention strap that feeds between the hammer and slide (This bit is important later). No trouble at dinner, and for the first 20 minutes or so of skating I notice a few looks at my piece, but nobody says anything. Then two official looking guys in security jackets and earpieces wave me off of the rink and ask to talk to me. One guy did most of the talking, let's call him "Jerry", and boy did he seem agitated.
He asked why I was open carrying, as soon as I started with "It's my second amendment..." he cut me off with a dismissive wave of his hand and a "Yeah yeah, it's your damned right". Nice. He asked to see my ID. I took a long, obvious look at his "Security" badge on his jacket, and told him I wasn't required to let him see it, which seemed to piss him off even more. He informed me that he was a Spokane County Sheriff's deputy, and that I was required to show him my ID. Okay, so unless I'm operating a motor vehicle he still doesn't have the right to demand my ID, but I want to try to defuse the situation a little, so I let him see it. He hands it to his buddy, let's call him "Bobby", who walked a little distance away to run it over the radio, make sure I wasn't a dangerous criminal. (Who's ice skating with his wife. Right.)
It's at this point that he gives me a passionate, profanity laced lecture on how open carrying is fine just when you're walking around, but when you're ice skating it's very dangerous and considered reckless endangerment. If I slipped and fell and my gun went off and killed somebody, I'd be held liable. Okay, now at no time did he ask if my gun was loaded (It was, I carry condition 1, but there's no way he could know that), and when I asked if he was familiar with the 1911 and how when there's a retention strap between the hammer and the slide there's no way in the world the gun is discharging, he was again very dismissive, he didn't care about that. He left me with the idea that it was less about public safety and more about people complaining, and him wanting to assert his authority.
So Bobby comes back with a negative on my ID, I've never gotten so much as a parking ticket in my life. Jerry gives me an ultimatum, either take the gun off, or leave the rink. I ask point blank "You're telling me it's illegal to ice skate while open carrying?" to which he responds "Yes it damn well is illegal". Again, I believe he was in the wrong, but as the evening was supposed to be about my wife and I'd rather not end up in the back of a police car, I agree to remove the gun and put it in my car for the rest of the evening. I did ask for his card, which he had to go back to his office for, and he showed me his County Sheriff's ID which matched his name.
So finally, here's what I'm unsure about:
A) What is the definition of Reckless Endangerment, and is ice skating while open carrying considered so? Is there a good solid definition, or is it at the discretion of the LEO?
B) Jerry was (seemingly) off duty at the time, working a second job as a security guard for the park. (Right? Or since he's working for the park, is that considered on duty? The card he gave me was for the Spokane City Parks and Recreation district) Can off duty LEOs require ID, make arrests, etc?
(I know the "FREEEDOMMM" thing to do is ask if you're being detained, if not then walk away, if yes then give nothing but name and address). Depending on some answers I get here I'm totally going back some evening and making a stand when I don't have my wife or kids with me.
I'll also be contacting the County Sheriff's office and filing a complaint, Jerry was extremely rude and vulgar, in no way acting like a public servant should.
So do you guys have any words of wisdom, advice? I'd love to hear from some people with more experience than I have, because I'm not going to stop carrying, but I really would like to be prepared for this same situation. Thanks for sticking through the wall of text.
TL: DR version: Ice Palace security who are also cops rudely told me I couldn't skate while open carrying because it was reckless endangerment.
Last edited: