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Thread: Question about SB 234 regarding LEO's

  1. #1
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    Question Question about SB 234 regarding LEO's

    Hello OCDO,

    First post, long-time part-time troll

    Question regarding SB 234. First some back story. I work for the Federal Bureau of Prisons, as such I am considered a federal leo. Because of LEOSA I can conceal carry across all 50 states and D.C. WITHOUT and permit or licence, even if there is a handgun bun (prior to SCOTUS overturning bans). So, I can conceal carry in Florida without a permit. But, with SB 234 requiring licenced CCW permits to be able to open carry, do I have to get the permit in order to open carry as a law enforcement officer?

    If I cant open carry, at least I would be able to conceal carry at college it the bill gets signed, right?

  2. #2
    Regular Member maps761's Avatar
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    Handgun Bun

    First you have to tell us what a "Handgun Bun" is. I might want to get one of those!

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michigan0626 View Post
    Hello OCDO,

    First post, long-time part-time troll

    Question regarding SB 234. First some back story. I work for the Federal Bureau of Prisons, as such I am considered a federal leo. Because of LEOSA I can conceal carry across all 50 states and D.C. WITHOUT and permit or licence, even if there is a handgun bun (prior to SCOTUS overturning bans). So, I can conceal carry in Florida without a permit. But, with SB 234 requiring licenced CCW permits to be able to open carry, do I have to get the permit in order to open carry as a law enforcement officer?

    If I cant open carry, at least I would be able to conceal carry at college it the bill gets signed, right?
    **handgun carry ban** ie. Illinois bans OC and CC. Its nice to know that I would be one of a handful of people able to CC in the enemy stronghold of Chicago.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michigan0626 View Post
    **handgun carry ban** ie. Illinois bans OC and CC. Its nice to know that I would be one of a handful of people able to CC in the enemy stronghold of Chicago.
    It is my understanding that corrections officers were NOT included in the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004. Do you have a cite to the contrary?
    http://www.philadelphiaarcheryandgunclub.com/HR218.pdf

    Part of the reason for not being included IMO is that COs lack the power of statutory arrest and are often not authorized by their department off carry off duty.

    Also for those for which LEOSA would benefit, be aware that the GFSZ still applies to you.
    There is no exemption for off duty or retired LEOs. Check it out and be safe.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    We do have a limited arrest authority. I have limited arrest authority during an escape. It doesnt matter how small of an authority you have, its still law enforcement. To work at any federal prison you have to be under the age of 37 due to law enforcement retirement. Its either 6(c) or 12(c), something like that. Dont feel like taking the time to look it up right now. But I am LEO and covered under LEOSA.

    Guess I'll start the process of getting the proper infringement paperwork started so that on July 1, 2011 I can be labeled MWAG.

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michigan0626 View Post
    We do have a limited arrest authority. I have limited arrest authority during an escape. It doesnt matter how small of an authority you have, its still law enforcement. To work at any federal prison you have to be under the age of 37 due to law enforcement retirement. Its either 6(c) or 12(c), something like that. Dont feel like taking the time to look it up right now. But I am LEO and covered under LEOSA.

    Guess I'll start the process of getting the proper infringement paperwork started so that on July 1, 2011 I can be labeled MWAG.
    While I do not know where you ascertain claimed "arrest authority," I can tell you as a retired DCJS State Academy Instructor in Virginia that falls under our mandate regarding maintaining custody and control and is not "statutory arrest authority." Even as a federal corrections officer your claim is nebulous at best.

    You may be right; however, others have concurred with my view. Best thing that I can suggest to you is before you venture out into that arena, you do take the time to look up the specifics and NOT take anybody's word for it. The potential penalty for being wrong is too great.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Getting past the querstion of if you legally qualify under LEOSA or not - the answer to your question is "NO" because OC will only be permitted for those holding a CCW. There is nothing that says non-uniformed LEO of any kind from anywhere can OC. LEOs who are in-state and in uniform OC under the statutory authority creating police forces and giving those police forces the authority to establish uniform (as in "costume") regulations. LEOs who are from out of state but on official business in-state OC as a professional courtesy.

    My bet is that so far you have either not been challenged for CC without a state permit or whoever saw your FBOP badge gave you a professional courtesy pass. Do not try that in Virginia - the cops here are trained that correctional officers from anywhere are not considered cops, not covered by LEOSA, and can only arrest (as in legal arrest authority) an escaped convict. Anyone aiding and abetting an escape or escapee can be detained by a correctional officer in Virginia under the law of citizen's arrest.

    stay safe.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The question of LEOSA application is germane because he intimated that he could carry in Chicago under that authority.

    The answer to the best of my knowledge is an unqualified NO - that was the purpose in asking him for a cite.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    job announcement on usajobs.com
    http://jobview.usajobs.gov/GetJob.aspx?JobID=97277582&JobTitle=Correctional+O fficer&sort=rv%2c-dtex&rad_units=miles&nosal=True&brd=3876&pp=25&occ =4231&qt=default&vw=b&re=134&FedEmp=Y&FedPub=Y&cal ler=advanced.aspx&AVSDM=2011-02-24+17%3a36%3a00

    AGE REQUIREMENT:

    In accordance with 5 U.S.C. 3307, a maximum entry age of 36 has been established for initial appointment to a position in a Bureau of Prisons institution. If you are above the maximum entry age and have prior federal law enforcement coverage, you MUST submit an SF-50 to verify prior coverage.
    Here is a corrections forum I sometimes visit.
    http://www.prisonofficer.org/law-enf...ons-leosa.html

    There is a pdf that I can email, its too big a file to upload in text or pdf.
    Last edited by michigan0626; 02-25-2011 at 11:44 AM.

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    So, as far as the opening question, I need a cwp. As far as the side topic, I am covered under LEOSA with the ability to cc anywhere (excluding the usual schools, courthouses, my place of work).

    Thanx guys.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michigan0626 View Post
    So, as far as the opening question, I need a cwp. As far as the side topic, I am covered under LEOSA with the ability to cc anywhere (excluding the usual schools, courthouses, my place of work).

    Thanx guys.
    Now you are contradicting yourself. In your OP, you contend you did not need a permit per LEOSA - now you say you do. Then above you state again that you may CC "anywhere" (any state) per LEOSA.

    I renew my request for a definitive cite wherein LEOSA states or a court of record has determined that a corrections office is qualified under that statute to carry w/o a recognized and accepted permit anywhere otherwise not restricted in all fifty states.

    You've already had it pointed out the LE in Virginia would not look kindly upon such an act, yet you continue to ignore OCDO rules regarding citing.

    Quoting from your OP,"First post, long-time part-time troll" Please take the opportunity to disprove your choice of that negative term as it might apply to you.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Grapeshot - you seem to have missed a finer point. The OP believes he can CC based on LEOSA and his status as a FBOP CO. However, he will not be allowed to OC in Florida based on LEOSA because 1) LEOSA only allows him to CC and 2) Florida's SB 234 only allows OC with a Florida CCW. BUt since it seems SB 234 is not going to get a chance this year, the whole issue of OCing seems to be moot for him.

    As to whether or not he actually qualifies for coverage under LEOSA - that is a question to be answered either in advance by a competent attorney in possession of all the facts of his employment status and the restrictions of LEOSA, or afterwards by a court of competent jurisdiction.

    If I were a betting man and had money to bet with, I'd put my money on your (our) opoinion that he is not covered by LEOSA and if he has been asked by some LEO for his creds he has been given a professional courtesy pass by a LEO that did not want to fill out all that paperwork if he could avoid it.

    stay safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Grapeshot - you seem to have missed a finer point. The OP believes he can CC based on LEOSA and his status as a FBOP CO. However, he will not be allowed to OC in Florida based on LEOSA because 1) LEOSA only allows him to CC and 2) Florida's SB 234 only allows OC with a Florida CCW. BUt since it seems SB 234 is not going to get a chance this year, the whole issue of OCing seems to be moot for him.

    As to whether or not he actually qualifies for coverage under LEOSA - that is a question to be answered either in advance by a competent attorney in possession of all the facts of his employment status and the restrictions of LEOSA, or afterwards by a court of competent jurisdiction.

    If I were a betting man and had money to bet with, I'd put my money on your (our) opoinion that he is not covered by LEOSA and if he has been asked by some LEO for his creds he has been given a professional courtesy pass by a LEO that did not want to fill out all that paperwork if he could avoid it.

    stay safe.
    The OP did not state, "I believe or I think." I understand the fine point of his question, but cannot/will not attempt to consider it based on faulty application.

    In most states (all?), how a LEO carries off duty is determined by department policy - most frequently LEOs are exempted from the laws governing how others may carry.

    He started off with " Because of LEOSA I can conceal carry across all 50 states and D.C," continues with "I can conceal carry in Florida without a permit." The OP closes with "do I have to get the permit in order to open carry as a law enforcement officer?"

    I am willing to be educated/informed and have looked extensively and cannot find a cite that would merit such statements. So I wait, but lose no sleep.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Here is the pdf that every Federal Bureau of Prisons staff member had to sign for. It was sent from the Director of the BOP. It might be difficult to read. It was in pdf format, saved in a text format, then copy/pasted on to word. It might be diffult to tell when the text ends and where all the footnotes starts. The original is 22 pages, I shrunk it down to 13 on word.

    I AM law enforcement.
    I AM covered under LEOSA.
    I CAN conceal carry without a permit (with certain guidelines met).
    Thanks to you guys (the ones that are cooperative and not combative or nitpicky), I realize that if SB 234 passes I CANNOT open carry under the letter of the law without a Florida Concealed Weapons Permit.

    U.S. Department of Justice
    Federal Bureau of Prisons

    Office of the Director
    Washington, D.C. 20534

    February 27, 2006

    MEMORANDUM FOR ALL STAFF


    FROM:
    Harley G. Lappin, Director

    SUBJECT:
    Guidance Regarding the Law Enforcement OfficersSafety Act (LEOSA)

    This memorandum provides updated guidance regarding the LawEnforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004 (P.L. 108-277; 18 U.S.C.
    §§ 926B and 926C; July 22, 2004) (LEOSA) as it pertains to Bureauof Prisons (Bureau) staff. My March 14, 2005, memorandum to allstaff titled “Information on Implementation of the Law EnforcementOfficers Safety Act” is hereby rescinded. Management and theUnion met in April 2005 over the implementation of LEOSA. All
    matters that were agreed upon between the parties are incorporatedin this memorandum.1 The President of the Council of Prison
    Locals received a copy of this memorandum prior to issuance.

    LEOSA exempts qualified current and retired law enforcementofficers from State and local laws that prohibit carryingconcealed firearms2 (a copy of LEOSA is included with thismemorandum as an attachment). On January 31, 2005, the

    1 Management and the Union could not come to a resolution on the matterof personal weapon storage for staff on BOP property.

    2 The law should not be interpreted as granting any benefits other thanthe exemption to State and local prohibitions on the carrying of a concealedfirearm. State and local jurisdictions regulate an individual's ability toobtain a firearms permit or purchase a firearm in a variety of ways. For
    example, at least one jurisdiction has imposed a requirement that anindividual's employer verify the employee's need to carry a firearm off dutyas a condition of his or her employment. Bureau staff are not required tocarry a firearm off duty as a condition of employment, and, therefore, theBureau is not responsible for providing a letter of necessity or statement tothis effect.

    Department of Justice (Department) issued guidance to allcomponents regarding application of LEOSA to current and retiredDepartment law enforcement officers (a copy of the Department’sguidance is included with this memorandum as an attachment).3
    Most BOP staff who have primary or secondary law enforcementstatus are “law enforcement” officers as defined in LEOSA,
    because most of these staff are “authorized by the agency tocarry a firearm,” as required by the law (see 18 U.S.C. § 926B(c)(2)). But, certain staff who qualify as “law enforcementofficers” for retirement purposes are NOT “authorized by theagency to carry a firearm,” (for example, Chaplains, as discussedbelow). A staff member’s retirement system status (i.e., lawenforcement status) is a necessary condition but not a sufficientcondition to determine eligibility under LEOSA.4

    This memorandum should not be construed as the Bureau of Prisons
    encouraging any staff member to take any particular action withregard to LEOSA. Staff must continue to abide by Bureau policiesand/or procedures regarding personal firearms that:

    (1) prohibit staff from carrying or using a personal firearmwhile on duty;
    (2) prohibit personal firearms from being brought into aninstitution or on the grounds of any Federal prison (exceptfor personal firearms to be used on an institution firingrange as authorized by the Warden, where constant possessionand control of the firearm is maintained);
    3 LEOSA defines a qualified current law enforcement officer as anemployee who (1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise theprevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarcerationof any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest;

    (2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm; (3) is not the subject ofany disciplinary action by the agency; (4) meets standards, if any,
    established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify inthe use of a firearm; (5) is not under the influence of alcohol or anotherintoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and (6) is not prohibited byFederal law from receiving a firearm.
    4 The Department’s guidance makes clear that individuals who meet thedefinition of a qualified law enforcement officer under LEOSA may or may not
    meet the definition of a law enforcement officer under the Civil Service
    Retirement System or the Federal Employees Employee Retirement System.
    (Emphasis added.)

    - 2


    (3) prohibit storing personal firearms in Bureau facilities5 or
    in vehicles parked on Bureau property; and
    (4) require personal firearms that are owned by staff inreservation housing to be stored in a specified secure areaother than residences.
    Personal Responsibility of Off-Duty Employees for Carrying/UsingConcealed Personal Firearms Under LEOSA
    The carrying of concealed personal firearms by off-duty staffpursuant to LEOSA is not an extension of official Bureau duties.
    Any actions taken by off-duty staff involving personal firearmswill not be considered actions within the scope of Bureauemployment, but rather will be considered actions taken asprivate citizens. Off-duty staff will be individually andpersonally responsible for any event that may relate to thecarrying or use of a concealed personal firearm under LEOSA.

    Arrest and law enforcement authorities for Bureau employees aregoverned by statute (18 U.S.C. § 3050) (attached), Federalregulations (28 C.F.R. §§ 511.10-511.16) (attached), theDepartment of Justice Policy Statement on the Use of Deadly Force(attached), and Bureau policy (Program Statement No. 5510.09,Searching, Detaining, or Arresting Persons Other than Inmates;
    and Chapter 7 of Program Statement No. 5500.12, CorrectionalServices Procedures Manual on “Firearms and Badges”). These
    authorities may be exercised only in furtherance of officialBureau duties as explained in the statute, regulations, andprogram statements. LEOSA does not, within the Act itself, giveoff-duty staff any arrest authority or law enforcement authority.

    Additionally, LEOSA exempts qualified current and retired lawenforcement officers from State and local laws that prohibit“carrying” concealed firearms. LEOSA’s language does not includeexemptions from State and local laws for any other firearms-
    related activities, for example, purchasing, registering,
    licensing, or the permissible use of firearms. It is, therefore,
    incumbent upon off-duty staff to be aware of the laws,
    ordinances, regulations, etc., within their jurisdiction that mayimpact any aspect of their ability to obtain, carry, or use apersonal firearm under LEOSA.

    5 On April 7, 2005, Management and the Executive Board of the Council ofPrison Locals agreed that “local supplemental agreements or MOUs negotiatedunder the current Master Agreement remain in effect under the terms of thecurrent Master Agreement and are not affected by this guidance unless they arecontrary to or are in violation of law (statute) or regulation.”

    - 3


    Use of Bureau of Prisons Identification for LEOSA PurposesFollowing Union negotiations, the Bureau has decided to approvestaff use of Bureau identification cards or credentials for LEOSA
    purposes. Consequently, the Bureau will no longer issue specificLEOSA identification cards. Staff who received a LEOSA
    identification card pursuant to the March 14, 2005, guidance mustreturn it to the Employee Services Department within two weeks ofthe date of this memorandum.

    Bureau identification cards or credentials may always be used bystaff to verify Bureau employment to any entity. This includes,
    but is not limited to, presenting your Bureau identification cardor credentials, when necessary, to another Federal, State, orlocal law enforcement officer for purposes of explaining youreligibility to carry a concealed personal firearm in public underLEOSA. This situation could arise during a routine traffic stop,
    while shopping in public, or in other situations.

    In these type situations, it is important that off-duty staff notmisrepresent that they are acting in furtherance of theirofficial Bureau duties. There should never be a time when off-
    duty staff claim to be carrying a concealed personal firearm as
    part of their Bureau employment or in furtherance of their
    official Bureau duties.

    LEOSA does not alter the Bureau’s policy which allows the use ofBureau credentials to obtain permissible discounts offered to abroad class of Government employees (see Bureau Program StatementNo. 3420.09, Standards of Employee Conduct, Section 17.c).
    Neither does LEOSA change the Bureau’s policy regarding badges.
    Official Bureau identification badges will be issued to staffonly when they are assigned to duties that require the carryingof a firearm (see Bureau Program Statement No. 5500.12,
    Correctional Services Procedures Manual, Section 705).

    Outside EmploymentThe Bureau rescinds its categorical prohibition on outsideemployment which requires the use of a firearm (see BureauProgram Statement No. 3420.09, Standards of Employee Conduct,
    Section 18). The Program Statement will be amended to reflectthis change.

    Employees are reminded that pursuant to 5 C.F.R. § 3801.106(b)(ii)
    they are still prohibited from engaging in outside employmentthat involves criminal matters. “Criminal matters,” for thispurpose, includes involvement with a Federal, State, or local lawenforcement agency, or with inmates as defined in the Standardsof Conduct, or with State and local inmates. In addition, the

    - 4

    prohibition covers outside employment that requires beingdeputized, granted police powers or arrest authority, orinvolvement with the courts. All requests for outside employmentthat require the carrying of a firearm must be reviewed andapproved by the staff member’s immediate supervisor, CEO, and theEthics Office prior to beginning the outside employment.

    Specific examples of prohibited outside employment may include,
    but are not limited to: auxiliary, reserve, or regular policeofficers; sheriffs or deputy sheriffs; and other positions thatprovide police or arrest powers to enforce criminal laws.

    Specific examples of permissible outside employment may include,
    but are not limited to: a property repossessor charged withrecovering property on behalf of a financial institution, a storesecurity guard, positions involving search and rescue operations,
    and other positions that do not require the use of police powersor arrest authority, but may allow the carrying of a firearm.

    Disciplinary ActionTo be a qualified law enforcement officer for purposes of LEOSA,
    an employee must not be “the subject of any disciplinary actionby the agency.”6 For this purpose, the Bureau considers anemployee to be the subject of “any disciplinary action” when thedecision letter is issued to the employee (meaning, disciplinaryaction begins). Disciplinary action ends when all sanctions thatwere issued are completed. “Disciplinary action” includes bothdisciplinary and adverse actions as stated in the MasterAgreement and Title 5 C.F.R. Part 3801. For demotion actions and
    letters of reprimand, the sanction is deemed completed on thedate the letter rendering the demotion action or the letter ofreprimand is issued.

    Public Health Service Officers
    Public Health Service (PHS) officers detailed to the Bureau donot have the statutory powers of arrest conferred upon Bureaustaff by 18 U.S.C. § 3050 (see 28 C.F.R. § 511.10(b)).
    Consequently, these PHS officers do not meet one of the necessarycriteria in the LEOSA definition of a “qualified law enforcementofficer,” and do not qualify to carry a concealed personalfirearm pursuant to LEOSA.

    6 See Bureau Program Statement No. 3420.09, Standards of Employee
    Conduct, for a review of what is considered to be disciplinary action by theBureau.

    - 5


    ChaplainsBureau Program Statement No. 3939.07, Chaplains’ Employment,
    Responsibilities, and Endorsements, expressly prohibits chaplainsfrom participating in firearms training, which likewise prohibitsthem from being issued firearms to perform official Bureauduties. Consequently, because chaplains are not “authorized bythe agency to carry a firearm,” they do not meet one of thenecessary criteria to be a “qualified law enforcement officer”
    for LEOSA purposes, and do not qualify to carry a concealedpersonal firearm pursuant to LEOSA.

    Employees For Whom Firearms Qualification is OptionalEmployees in non-institution, primary or secondary lawenforcement status (e.g., Central Office and Regional staff), maychoose to complete the Bureau’s firearms qualification program inorder to remain authorized to be issued a firearm as part ofofficial Bureau duties. Such staff should consult with their
    Employee Services Department to determine the most appropriatemethod for qualifying. Most likely, the Employee ServicesDepartment will have to coordinate with a Bureau facility thatprovides firearms qualification to determine a suitable time fornon-institution staff.

    Retired Law Enforcement Officers
    Some Bureau retirees who were law enforcement officers will wish
    to take advantage of this law. The guidance from the Departmentrequires that a retiree’s identification include the name ofthe individual, the individual’s photograph, an identificationnumber traceable to the bearer, the date the employee retiredin good standing, and the phrase “Retired Law EnforcementOfficer.” Guidance regarding the issuing of the requiredidentification cards to retirees is contained in a March 30,2005, memorandum from W. Elaine Chapman, Acting AssistantDirector, Human Resource Management Division, to EmployeeServices Administrators and Managers titled “Additional Guidanceand Procedures for Bureau Retirees to Obtain a Law Enforcement
    Officers Safety Act Identification Card.”

    The Bureau will not be responsible for training or qualifyingretirees to carry a concealed personal firearm under LEOSA. In
    order to be authorized under LEOSA to carry a firearm, a Bureauretiree must qualify in accordance with State standards foractive law enforcement officers, as provided in LEOSA (18 U.S.C.
    § 926C(d)(2)(B)), and the guidance from the Department.

    Copies of LEOSA to EmployeesAll Bureau employees will be provided a copy of this guidancememorandum and its attachments and are required to sign toacknowledge receipt of these documents.

    Attachments

    - 6


    Acknowledgment of Receipt of Guidance Materials
    Regarding the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004


    I have received a copy of the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act

    (P.L. 108-277); the Bureau of Prisons February 27, 2006,
    memorandum titled “Guidance Regarding the Law EnforcementOfficers Safety Act (LEOSA);” the Department of Justice’s January31, 2005, memorandum titled “Guidance on the Application of theLaw Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004 to Current andRetired Department of Justice Law Enforcement Officers,” title 18
    U.S.C. § 3050; 28 C.F.R. §§ 511.10-511.16, and the Department ofJustice Policy Statement on the Use of Deadly Force.
    Staff Member Printed Name

    Staff Member Signature

    Date Signed

    Place this form on the left side of the employee’s OfficialPersonnel Folder


    Title 18, United States Code

    § 3050. Bureau of Prisons employees’ powers

    An officer or employee of the Bureau of Prisons may—

    (1) make arrests on or off of Bureau of Prisons property without warrant for violations of
    the following provisions regardless of where the violation may occur: sections 111
    (assaulting officers), 751 (escape), and 752 (assisting escape) of title 18, United States
    Code, and section 1826 (c) (escape) of title 28, United States Code;
    (2) make arrests on Bureau of Prisons premises or reservation land of a penal, detention,
    or correctional facility without warrant for violations occurring thereon of the following
    provisions: sections 661 (theft), 1361 (depredation of property), 1363 (destruction of
    property), 1791 (contraband), 1792 (mutiny and riot), and 1793 (trespass) of title 18,
    United States Code; and
    (3) arrest without warrant for any other offense described in title 18 or 21 of the United
    States Code, if committed on the premises or reservation of a penal or correctional
    facility of the Bureau of Prisons if necessary to safeguard security, good order, or
    government property;
    if such officer or employee has reasonable grounds to believe that the arrested person is guilty of
    such offense, and if there is likelihood of such person’s escaping before an arrest warrant can be
    obtained. If the arrested person is a fugitive from custody, such prisoner shall be returned to
    custody. Officers and employees of the said Bureau of Prisons may carry firearms under such
    rules and regulations as the Attorney General may prescribe.

    PUBLIC LAW 108–277—JULY 22, 2004 118 STAT. 865


    Public Law 108–277
    108th Congress
    An Act

    To amend title 18, United States Code, to exempt qualified current and former
    law enforcement officers from State laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed
    handguns.

    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of
    the United States of America in Congress assembled,

    SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

    This Act may be cited as the ‘‘Law Enforcement Officers Safety
    Act of 2004’’.

    SEC. 2. EXEMPTION OF QUALIFIED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS
    FROM STATE LAWS PROHIBITING THE CARRYING OF
    CONCEALED FIREARMS.

    (a) IN GENERAL.—Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code,
    is amended by inserting after section 926A the following:
    ‘‘§ 926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law
    enforcement officers

    ‘‘(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any
    State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is
    a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification
    required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm
    that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce,
    subject to subsection (b).

    ‘‘(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit
    the laws of any State that—
    ‘‘(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict
    the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

    ‘‘(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any
    State or local government property, installation, building, base,
    or park.
    ‘‘(c) As used in this section, the term ‘qualified law enforcement

    officer’ means an employee of a governmental agency who—

    ‘‘(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the
    prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the
    incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has
    statutory powers of arrest;

    ‘‘(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;
    ‘‘(3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the
    agency;

    ‘‘(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency
    which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use
    of a firearm;

    July 22, 2004

    [H.R. 218]
    Law Enforcement
    Officers Safety
    Act of 2004.
    18 USC 921 note.

    118 STAT. 866 PUBLIC LAW 108–277—JULY 22, 2004

    ‘‘(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating
    or hallucinatory drug or substance; and

    ‘‘(6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a
    firearm.
    ‘‘(d) The identification required by this subsection is the photo


    graphic identification issued by the governmental agency for which
    the individual is employed as a law enforcement officer.
    ‘‘(e) As used in this section, the term ‘firearm’ does not include—
    ‘‘(1) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the
    National Firearms Act);
    ‘‘(2) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this
    title); and
    ‘‘(3) any destructive device (as defined in section 921 of
    this title).’’.

    (b) CLERICAL AMENDMENT.—The table of sections for such
    chapter is amended by inserting after the item relating to section
    926A the following:
    ‘‘926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers.’’.

    SEC. 3. EXEMPTION OF QUALIFIED RETIRED LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS
    FROM STATE LAWS PROHIBITING THE CARRYING
    OF CONCEALED FIREARMS.

    (a) IN GENERAL.—Chapter 44 of title 18, United States Code,
    is further amended by inserting after section 926B the following:
    ‘‘§ 926C. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified retiredlaw enforcement officers

    ‘‘(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any
    State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is
    a qualified retired law enforcement officer and who is carrying
    the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed
    firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign
    commerce, subject to subsection (b).

    ‘‘(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit
    the laws of any State that—
    ‘‘(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict
    the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

    ‘‘(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any
    State or local government property, installation, building, base,
    or park.
    ‘‘(c) As used in this section, the term ‘qualified retired law

    enforcement officer’ means an individual who—

    ‘‘(1) retired in good standing from service with a public
    agency as a law enforcement officer, other than for reasons
    of mental instability;

    ‘‘(2) before such retirement, was authorized by law to
    engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation,
    or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any
    violation of law, and had statutory powers of arrest;

    ‘‘(3)(A) before such retirement, was regularly employed as
    a law enforcement officer for an aggregate of 15 years or more;
    or

    ‘‘(B) retired from service with such agency, after completing
    any applicable probationary period of such service, due to a
    service-connected disability, as determined by such agency;

    ‘‘(4) has a nonforfeitable right to benefits under the retirement
    plan of the agency;

    PUBLIC LAW 108–277—JULY 22, 2004 118 STAT. 867

    ‘‘(5) during the most recent 12-month period, has met,
    at the expense of the individual, the State’s standards for
    training and qualification for active law enforcement officers
    to carry firearms;


    ‘‘(6) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating
    or hallucinatory drug or substance; and


    ‘‘(7) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a
    firearm.
    ‘‘(d) The identification required by this subsection is—


    ‘‘(1) a photographic identification issued by the agency from
    which the individual retired from service as a law enforcement
    officer that indicates that the individual has, not less recently
    than one year before the date the individual is carrying the
    concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the agency
    to meet the standards established by the agency for training
    and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry
    a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm; or


    ‘‘(2)(A) a photographic identification issued by the agency
    from which the individual retired from service as a law enforcement
    officer; and


    ‘‘(B) a certification issued by the State in which the individual
    resides that indicates that the individual has, not less
    recently than one year before the date the individual is carrying
    the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the
    State to meet the standards established by the State for
    training and qualification for active law enforcement officers
    to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm.
    ‘‘(e) As used in this section, the term ‘firearm’ does not include—


    ‘‘(1) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the
    National Firearms Act);
    ‘‘(2) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this
    title); and
    ‘‘(3) a destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this
    title).’’.


    (b) CLERICAL AMENDMENT.—The table of sections for such
    chapter is further amended by inserting after the item relating
    to section 926B the following:
    ‘‘926C. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified retired law enforcement officers.’’.


    Approved July 22, 2004.

    LEGISLATIVE HISTORY—H.R. 218 (S. 253):

    HOUSE REPORTS: No. 108–560 (Comm. on the Judiciary).
    SENATE REPORTS: No. 108–29 accompanying S. 253 (Comm. on the Judiciary).
    CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, Vol. 150 (2004):


    June 23, considered and passed House.
    July 7, considered and passed Senate.


    Æ


    § 506.1

    § 506.1 What is the purpose of individual
    inmate commissary accounts?


    The purpose of individual inmate
    commissary accounts is to allow the
    Bureau to maintain inmates’ monies
    while they are incarcerated. Family,
    friends, or other sources may deposit
    funds into these accounts.

    § 506.2 How may family, friends, or
    other sources deposit funds into an
    inmate commissary account?

    (a) Family and friends must mail deposits
    to the centralized inmate commissary
    account at the address we provide.
    (1) The deposit envelope must not
    contain any enclosures intended for delivery
    to the inmate. We may dispose
    of any enclosure.
    (2) The deposit must be in the form of
    a money order made out to the inmate’s
    full name and complete register
    number. We will return checks to the
    sender provided the check contains an
    adequate return address.
    (b) Other sources, (such as tax refunds,
    dividends from stocks, or state
    benefits) must be forwarded for deposit
    to the centralized inmate commissary
    account.
    PART 511—GENERAL
    MANAGEMENT POLICY


    Subpart A [Reserved]


    Subpart B—Searching and Detaining or
    Arresting Persons Other Than Inmates


    Sec.

    511.10 Purpose and scope.
    511.11 Definitions.
    511.12 Procedures for searching visitors.
    511.13 Controlled visiting—denying visits.
    511.14
    Right of refusal/termination of a
    visit.
    511.15 Detaining visitors.
    511.16 Use of arrest authority.
    AUTHORITY: 5 U.S.C. 301; 18 U.S.C. 751, 752,
    1791, 1792, 1793, 3050, 3621, 3622, 3624, 4001, 4012,
    4042, 4081, 4082 (Repealed as to offenses committed
    on or after November 1, 1987), 5006–
    5024 (Repealed October 12, 1984 as to offenses
    committed after that date), 5039; 28 U.S.C.
    509, 510; 28 CFR 0.95–0.99, 6.1.

    SOURCE: 49 FR 44057, Nov. 1, 1984, unless
    otherwise noted.

    28 CFR Ch. V (7–1–05 Edition)

    Subpart A [Reserved]

    Subpart B—Searching and Detaining
    or Arresting Persons Other
    Than Inmates

    § 511.10 Purpose and scope.

    (a) In an effort to prevent the introduction
    of contraband (such prohibited
    objects as defined in § 511.11(c)) into an
    institution, Bureau of Prisons staff
    may subject all persons entering an institution,
    or during their presence in
    an institution, to a search of their persons
    and effects.
    (b) Title 18, United States Code, section
    3050 authorizes Bureau of Prisons
    employees (does not include United
    States Public Health Service employees)—
    (1) To make an arrest on or off Bureau
    of Prisons premises without warrant
    for violation of the following provisions
    regardless of where the violation
    may occur: section 111 (assaulting
    officers), section 751 (escape), section
    752 (assisting escape) of title 18, United
    States Code, and section 1826(c) (escape)
    of title 28, United States Code;
    (2) To make an arrest on Bureau of
    Prisons premises or reservation land of
    a penal, detention, or correctional facility
    without warrant for violation occurring
    thereon of the following provisions:
    section 661 (theft), section 1361
    (depredation of property), section 1363
    (destruction of property), section 1791
    (contraband), section 1792 (mutiny and
    riot), and section 1793 (trespass) of title
    18, United States Code, and
    (3) To arrest without warrant for any
    other offense described in title 18 or 21
    of the United States Code, if committed
    on the premises or reservation
    of a penal or correctional facility of
    the Bureau of Prisons if necessary to
    safeguard security, good order, or government
    property. Bureau policy provides
    that such an arrest may be made
    when staff has probable cause to believe
    that a person has committed one
    of these offenses and when there is
    likelihood of the person escaping before
    a warrant can be obtained.
    [59 FR 5924, Feb. 8, 1994]

    526


    Bureau of Prisons, Justice

    § 511.11 Definitions.

    (a) Reasonable suspicion. As used in
    this rule, reasonable suspicion exists if
    the facts and circumstances that are
    known to the Warden warrant rational
    inferences by a person with correctional
    experience that a person is engaged,
    or attempting or about to engage,
    in criminal or other prohibited
    behavior. A reasonable suspicion may
    be based on reliable information, even
    if that information is confidential; on a
    positive reading of a metal detector; or
    when contraband or an indicia of contraband
    is found during search of a
    visitor’s personal effects.
    (b) Probable cause. As used in this
    rule, probable cause exists if the facts
    and circumstances that are known to
    the Warden would warrant a person of
    reasonable caution to believe that an
    offense has been committed.
    (c) Prohibited object. A firearm or destructive
    device; ammunition; a weapon
    or an object that is designed or intended
    to be used as a weapon or to facilitate
    escape from a prison; a narcotic
    drug, lysergic acid diethylamide,
    or phencyclidine; a controlled substance
    or alcoholic beverage; any
    United States or foreign currency; and
    any other object that threatens the
    order, discipline, or security of a prison,
    or the life, health, or safety of an
    individual.
    [59 FR 5924, Feb. 8, 1994]

    § 511.12 Procedures for searching visitors.


    (a) The Warden shall post a notice
    outside the institution’s secure perimeter
    advising all persons that it is a
    Federal crime to bring upon the institution
    grounds any weapons, intoxicants,
    drugs, or other contraband, and
    that all persons, property (including
    vehicles), and packages are subject to
    search. A person may not use either a
    camera or recording equipment on institution
    grounds without the written
    consent of the Warden.
    (b) The Warden may require visitors
    entering the institution from outside
    the secure perimeter to submit to a
    search:
    (1) By electronic means (for example,
    walk-through and/or hand-held metal
    detector).
    § 511.13

    (2) Of personal effects. The institution
    ordinarily provides locker space
    for personal effects not taken into the
    visiting room.
    (c) The Warden may authorize a pat
    search of a visitor as a prerequisite to
    a visit when there is reasonable suspicion
    that the visitor possesses contraband,
    or is introducing or attempting
    to introduce contraband into the
    institution.
    (d) The Warden may authorize a visual
    search (visual inspection of all
    body surfaces and cavities) of a visitor
    as a prerequisite to a visit to an inmate
    in a low and above security level
    institution, or administrative institution,
    or in a pretrial or in a jail (detention)
    unit within any security level institution
    when there is reasonable suspicion
    that the visitor possesses contraband
    or is introducing or attempting
    to introduce contraband into the
    institution.
    (e) The Warden may authorize a
    breathalyzer or urine surveillance test
    or other comparable test of a visitor as
    a prerequisite to a visit to an inmate
    when there is reasonable suspicion that
    the visitor is under the influence of a
    narcotic, drug, or intoxicant. As stated
    in § 511.14, the visitor may refuse to
    take the test, but the visit will not be
    allowed.
    (f) A pat search, visual search, or
    urine surveillance test is to be conducted
    by a person of the same sex as
    the visitor. A pat search, visual search,
    urine surveillance, or breathalyzer test
    shall be conducted out of the view of
    other visitors and inmates.
    [49 FR 44057, Nov. 1, 1984, as amended at 51
    FR 26126, July 18, 1986; 56 FR 4159, Feb. 1,
    1991; 59 FR 5925, Feb. 8, 1994; 63 FR 11818, Mar.
    10, 1998]

    § 511.13 Controlled visiting—denying
    visits.

    (a) The Warden may restrict visiting
    to controlled situations or to more
    closely supervised visits when there is
    any suspicion that the visitor is introducing
    or attempting to introduce contraband,
    or when there has been a prior
    incident of such introduction or attempted
    introduction, or when there is
    527


    § 511.14

    any concern, based upon sound correctional
    judgment, about the visitor presenting
    a risk to the orderly running of
    the visiting room or area.

    (b) The Warden may deny visiting
    privileges when a controlled or closely
    supervised visit is not possible.
    (c) Staff shall deny admission to the
    institution to a visitor who refuses to
    be screened by a metal detector or who
    refuses to undergo a search of person
    and/or effects as dictated by these
    rules.
    § 511.14 Right of refusal/termination of
    a visit.

    (a) A visitor who objects to any of
    the search or test or entrance procedures
    has the option of refusing and
    leaving the institution property, unless
    there is reason to detain and/or arrest.
    (b) Staff may terminate a visit upon
    determining that a visitor is in possession
    of, or is passing or attempting to
    pass contraband not previously detected
    during the search process, or is
    engaged in any conduct or behavior
    which poses a threat to the orderly or
    secure running of the institution, or to
    the safety of any person in the institution.
    The staff member terminating the
    visit is to prepare written documentation
    describing the basis for this action.
    § 511.15 Detaining visitors.

    (a) Staff may detain a visitor or any
    person who is found to be introducing
    or attempting to introduce such contraband
    as narcotics, intoxicants, lethal
    or poisonous chemicals or gases,
    guns, knives, or other weapons, or who
    is engaged in any other conduct which
    is a violation of law (including, but not
    limited to, actions which assist escape,
    such as possession of escape paraphernalia,
    or which induce riots), pending
    notification and arrival of appropriate
    law enforcement officials. The
    standard for such detention is a finding,
    based on probable cause, that the
    person has engaged in such a violation.
    Institution staff should not interrogate
    suspects unless immediate questioning
    is necessary to protect the security of
    the institution or the life or safety of
    any person.
    (b) Staff shall employ only the minimum
    amount of force necessary to de28
    CFR Ch. V (7–1–05 Edition)

    tain the individual. Visitors will be detained
    in an area away from the sight
    of, and where there can be no contact
    with, other visitors and inmates.

    § 511.16 Use of arrest authority.

    To effect an arrest under any of the
    cited sections in § 511.10(b) of this part,
    or under any future arrest authorization
    statute that may be approved by
    the Congress of the United States, staff
    shall have probable cause that the suspected
    individual is violating the law.
    Whenever possible, the Warden or designee
    shall make the determination as
    to whether an arrest should occur.

    PART 512—RESEARCH

    Subpart A [Reserved]

    Subpart B—Research

    Sec.

    512.10 Purpose and scope.
    512.11
    Requirements for research projects
    and researchers.
    512.12 Content of research proposal.
    512.13 Institutional Review Board.
    512.14
    Submission and processing of proposal.
    512.15 Access to Bureau of Prisons records.
    512.16 Informed consent.
    512.17
    Monitoring approved research
    projects.
    512.18 Termination or suspension.
    512.19 Reports.
    512.20
    Publication of results of research
    project.
    512.21 Copyright provisions.
    AUTHORITY: 5 U.S.C. 301; 18 U.S.C. 3621, 3622,
    3624, 4001, 4042, 4081, 4082 (Repealed in part as
    to offenses committed on or after November
    1, 1987), 5006–5024 (Repealed October 12, 1984
    as to offenses committed after that date),
    5039; 28 U.S.C. 509, 510; 28 CFR 0.95–0.99.

    Subpart A [Reserved]

    Subpart B—Research

    SOURCE: 59 FR 13860, Mar. 23, 1994, unless
    otherwise noted.

    § 512.10 Purpose and scope.

    General provisions for the protection
    of human subjects during the conduct
    of research are contained in 28 CFR
    part 46. The provisions of this subpart
    B specify additional requirements for

    528


    DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
    POLICY STATEMENT ON THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE


    (Approved July 1, 2004)


    GENERAL PRINCIPLES


    I.
    Law enforcement officers and correctional officers of the
    Department of Justice may use deadly force only when
    necessary, that is, when the officer has a reasonable belief
    that the subject of such force poses an imminent danger of
    death or serious physical injury to the officer or to
    another person.
    A.
    Deadly force may not be used solely to prevent the
    escape of a fleeing suspect.
    B.
    Firearms may not be fired solely to disable moving
    vehicles.
    C.
    If feasible and if to do so would not increase the
    danger to the officer or others, a verbal warning to
    submit to the authority of the officer shall be given
    prior to the use of deadly force.
    D.
    Warning shots are not permitted outside of the prison
    context.
    E.
    Officers will be trained in alternative methods and
    tactics for handling resisting subjects which must be
    used when the use of deadly force is not authorized by
    this policy.
    CUSTODIAL SITUATIONS


    II.
    Unless force other than deadly force appears to be
    sufficient, deadly force may be used to prevent the escape
    of a prisoner committed to the custody of the Attorney
    General or the Bureau of Prisons
    A.
    if the prisoner is effecting his or her escape in a
    manner that poses an imminent danger to the safety of
    the officer or another person; or
    B.
    if the prisoner is escaping from a secure facility or
    is escaping while in transit to or from a secure
    facility.
    III. If the subject is in a non-secure facility, deadly force may
    be used only when the subject poses an imminent danger of
    death or serious physical injury to the officer or another
    person.

    IV.
    If the subject is in transit to or from a non-secure
    facility and is not accompanied by a person who is in
    transit to or from a secure facility, deadly force may be
    used only when the subject poses an imminent danger of death
    or serious physical injury to the officer or to another
    person.
    V.
    After an escape from a facility or vehicle and its immediate
    environs has been effected, officers attempting to apprehend
    the escaped prisoner may use deadly force only when the
    escaped prisoner poses an imminent danger of death or
    serious physical injury to the officer or another person.
    VI.
    Deadly force may be used to maintain or restore control of a
    prison or correctional facility when the officer reasonably
    believes that the intended subject of the deadly force is
    participating in a disturbance in a manner that threatens
    the safety of the officer or another person.
    VII. In the prison context, warning shots may be fired within or
    in the immediate environs of a secure facility if there is
    no apparent danger to innocent persons: (A) If reasonably
    necessary to deter or prevent the subject from escaping from
    a secure facility; or (B) if reasonably necessary to deter
    or prevent the subject’s use of deadly force or force likely
    to cause serious physical injury.
    APPLICATION OF THE POLICY


    VIII. This Policy is not intended to, and does not, create any
    right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at
    law or in equity, against the United States, its
    departments, agencies, or other entities, its officers or
    employees, or any other person.
    - 2
    Last edited by michigan0626; 02-25-2011 at 10:39 PM.

  15. #15
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    Yes, off of duty, the BOP holds no responsibility for any actions taken by staff. Any use of a weapon is outside our scope of duty.

    BUT, if we are stopped by cops, searched, and a gun is found; the BOP will take our defense that we are authorized to carry without a permit.

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michigan0626 View Post
    Yes, off of duty, the BOP holds no responsibility for any actions taken by staff. Any use of a weapon is outside our scope of duty.

    BUT, if we are stopped by cops, searched, and a gun is found; the BOP will take our defense that we are authorized to carry without a permit.
    Am really trying to be patient here - posting a huge, multi-page document is not citing, it is overloading. Futher, your cited material is a departmental "Memorandum" of opinion - hardly a valid source. Neither statute law nor court decision were noted as requested.

    Nevertheless, I will quote from the document you provided a selection you did NOT highlight. To wit:
    These authorities may be exercised only in furtherance of official Bureau duties as explained in the statute, regulations, and program statements. LEOSA does not, within the Act itself, give off-duty staff any arrest authority or law enforcement authority.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
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    tle 18, United States Code § 3050. Bureau of Prisons employees’ powers An officer or employee of the Bureau of Prisons may— 1) make arrests on or off of Bureau of Prisons property without warrant for violations of the following provisions regardless of where the violation may occur: sections 111 assaulting officers), 751 (escape), and 752 (assisting escape) of title 18, Unite States States Code, and section 1826 (c) (escape) of title 28, United States Code; 2) make arrests on Bureau of Prisons premises or reservation land of a penal detention, or correctional facility without warrant for violations occurring thereon of the following provisions: sections 661 (theft), 1361 (depredation of property), 1363 (destruction of property), 1791 (contraband), 1792 (mutiny and riot), and 1793 (trespass) of title 18, United States Code; and 3) arrest without warrant for any other offense described in title 18 or 21 of the United States Code, if committed on the premises or reservation of a penal or correctional facility of the Bureau of Prisons if necessary to safeguard security, good order or government property; f such officer or employee has reasonable grounds to believe that the arrested person is guilty of such offense, and if there is likelihood of such person’s escaping before an arrest warrant can be arrest warrant can be obtained. If the arrested person is a fugitive from custody, such prisoner shal be returned to custody. Officers and employees of the said Bureau of Prisons may carry firearms under such rules and regulations as the Attorney General may prescribe.

  18. #18
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    Title 18, United States Code is my authority. LEOSA give my arrest authority the ability to cc without a ccw permit.

    There, its sited. Get off my back. We want the same thing, OC, yet you complain I didn't site facts to what I claim I can or cannot do. Last I checked this wasn't a legal or law forum. Not everyone here has a background in law. I just wanted a little clarification, not an effing ******* match over semantix.

    You've on this forum a long time. You probably have done a lot more research than I have and have vast amounts of knowledge on the subject. I'm hoping I can gain some of that knowledge from you. ******* people off on their first thread while trying to ask for help isn't a good way of keeping members. That hurts the cause rather than helps it.

    So, starting over.

    I'm Marc, nice to meet you.
    Last edited by michigan0626; 02-26-2011 at 12:54 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by michigan0626 View Post
    Title 18, United States Code is my authority. LEOSA give my arrest authority the ability to cc without a ccw permit.

    There, its sited. Get off my back. We want the same thing, OC, yet you complain I didn't site facts to what I claim I can or cannot do. Last I checked this wasn't a legal or law forum. Not everyone here has a background in law. I just wanted a little clarification, not an effing ******* match over semantix.

    You've on this forum a long time. You probably have done a lot more research than I have and have vast amounts of knowledge on the subject. I'm hoping I can gain some of that knowledge from you. ******* people off on their first thread while trying to ask for help isn't a good way of keeping members. That hurts the cause rather than helps it.

    So, starting over.

    I'm Marc, nice to meet you.
    Been a while since I read LEOSA. If I remember it correctly (and as you "CITED" above) it would cover you but it does not cover OC. Unless they changed since I last read it. Just go by what your department's policy says and you should be fine.
    IMO some of the above may be jealous.
    However I still would recommend you get Florida's CCW license.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dtom View Post
    Been a while since I read LEOSA. If I remember it correctly (and as you "CITED" above) it would cover you but it does not cover OC. Unless they changed since I last read it. Just go by what your department's policy says and you should be fine.
    IMO some of the above may be jealous.
    However I still would recommend you get Florida's CCW license.
    I am going to take the plung and get the cwp. But, with the pending Federal government work stopage, I need to make sure I keep as much funds as possible. Last time it happened, other BOP CO's told me they didnt get paychecks for 12 weeks. So, paying $300 for classes and permit fees for me and the wife can wait a little bit.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by michigan0626 View Post
    I am going to take the plung and get the cwp. But, with the pending Federal government work stopage, I need to make sure I keep as much funds as possible. Last time it happened, other BOP CO's told me they didnt get paychecks for 12 weeks. So, paying $300 for classes and permit fees for me and the wife can wait a little bit.
    You shouldn't need to take a class. Click here.

  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michigan0626 View Post
    tle 18, United States Code § 3050. Bureau of Prisons employees’ powers An officer or employee of the Bureau of Prisons may— 1) make arrests on or off of Bureau of Prisons property without warrant for violations of the following provisions regardless of where the violation may occur: sections 111 assaulting officers), 751 (escape), and 752 (assisting escape) of title 18, Unite States States Code, and section 1826 (c) (escape) of title 28, United States Code; 2) make arrests on Bureau of Prisons premises or reservation land of a penal detention, or correctional facility without warrant for violations occurring thereon of the following provisions: sections 661 (theft), 1361 (depredation of property), 1363 (destruction of property), 1791 (contraband), 1792 (mutiny and riot), and 1793 (trespass) of title 18, United States Code; and 3) arrest without warrant for any other offense described in title 18 or 21 of the United States Code, if committed on the premises or reservation of a penal or correctional facility of the Bureau of Prisons if necessary to safeguard security, good order or government property; f such officer or employee has reasonable grounds to believe that the arrested person is guilty of such offense, and if there is likelihood of such person’s escaping before an arrest warrant can be arrest warrant can be obtained. If the arrested person is a fugitive from custody, such prisoner shal be returned to custody. Officers and employees of the said Bureau of Prisons may carry firearms under such rules and regulations as the Attorney General may prescribe.
    Quote Originally Posted by michigan0626 View Post
    Title 18, United States Code is my authority. LEOSA give my arrest authority the ability to cc without a ccw permit.

    There, its sited. Get off my back. We want the same thing, OC, yet you complain I didn't site facts to what I claim I can or cannot do. Last I checked this wasn't a legal or law forum. Not everyone here has a background in law. I just wanted a little clarification, not an effing ******* match over semantix.

    You've on this forum a long time. You probably have done a lot more research than I have and have vast amounts of knowledge on the subject. I'm hoping I can gain some of that knowledge from you. ******* people off on their first thread while trying to ask for help isn't a good way of keeping members. That hurts the cause rather than helps it.

    So, starting over.

    I'm Marc, nice to meet you.
    Good to meet you too, Marc. Never was there an attempt to attack you personally or in the vernacular to "flame" you. It has always been about the content. Bear in mind that many people read these posts and will develop opinions based upon what they see here. That is the purpose of the forum rules regarding cites and why we attempt to correct faulty impressions. I repeat, it is NOT a personal thing. There is no me vs you.

    OCDO is very much a forum based on the laws and citing them. With out such a requirement, everything here would be hearsay. Please read Rule #5
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

    A little background may help your perception. For many years I was an instructor attached to our academy, one of my off-spring is the Senior Instructor at the State Academy so I am not entirely w/o knowledge and resources.

    Your cites still do not support your premise that you qualify under LEOSA to carry in any state w/o permit. What your cites do is authorize you to "arrest" a prisoner/inmate. In our state parlance this falls under maintaining "custody and control". You do not have what is commonly called power of "statutory arrest" as a municipal LEO would have.

    I do not anticipate that my points will convince you, but it is my fervent hope that you will not put yourself at risk by doing what you apparently believe is right in this case. The cost could be extreme. I also do not want anyone else to simply accept your premise.

    I do look forward to Florida one day getting OC legalized and strongly encourage you to get your permit to conceal, especially if you travel out of state.

    If you ever get to Virgina, I'd be most happy to share a meal with you and chat a while as friends. Just don't conceal here w/o an accepted permit.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-26-2011 at 06:32 PM. Reason: fixed it
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Murphy's first law of online statutory debate:

    You will never resolve in a few posts that which the federal, state, or local government has had years to muddle and will likewise take the courts years to decide.
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  24. #24
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    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Good to meet you too, Marc. Never was there an attempt to attack you personally or in the vernacular to "flame" you. It has always been about the content. Bear in mind that many people read these posts and will develop opinions based upon what they see here. That is the purpose of the forum rules regarding cites and why we attempt to correct faulty impressions. I repeat, it is NOT a personal thing. There is no me vs you.

    OCDO is very much a forum based on the laws and citing them. With out such a requirement, everything here would be hearsay. Please read Rule #5
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

    A little background may help your perception. For many years I was an instructor attached to our academy, one of my off-spring is the Senior Instructor at the State Academy so I am not entirely w/o knowledge and resources.

    Your cites still do not support your premise that you qualify under LEOSA to carry in any state w/o permit. What your cites do is authorize you to "arrest" a prisoner/inmate. In our state parlance this falls under maintaining "custody and control". You do not have what is commonly called power of "statutory arrest" as a municipal LEO would have.

    I do not anticipate that my points will convince you, but it is my fervent hope that you will not put yourself at risk by doing what you apparently believe is right in this case. The cost could be extreme. I also do not want anyone else to simply accept your premise.

    I do look forward to Florida one day getting OC legalized and strongly encourage you to get your permit to conceal, especially if you travel out of state.

    If you ever get to Virgina, I'd be most happy to share a meal with you and chat a while as friends. Just don't conceal here w/o an accepted permit.
    First, I do have the ability to arrest citizens, not just prisoners.
    Second, id like to one day come to Virginia and thank the founders of this website for starting one of the greatest movements for second amendment rights. I don't know how close you are to Petersburg, but the federal prison there is on my short list of choices for a possible transfer spot. Maybe then we can have an oc event and shoot a bit.

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michigan0626 View Post
    First, I do have the ability to arrest citizens, not just prisoners.
    Second, id like to one day come to Virginia and thank the founders of this website for starting one of the greatest movements for second amendment rights. I don't know how close you are to Petersburg, but the federal prison there is on my short list of choices for a possible transfer spot. Maybe then we can have an oc event and shoot a bit.
    The Petersburg facility is about 25 miles from Richmond. It is considered a "country club" by many - good place to work from what I hear.

    Always a lot going on in the area between VCDL and the OC community - both very active groups with the lobbying and social functions. VCDL has served as the model for numerous other grass roots, pro-self defense organizations. Proud to be a member.

    BTW - we all have the power of arrest. It's called "citizen's arrest".
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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