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Question about SB 234 regarding LEO's
- Thread starter michigan0626
- Start date
Good to meet you too, Marc. Never was there an attempt to attack you personally or in the vernacular to "flame" you. It has always been about the content. Bear in mind that many people read these posts and will develop opinions based upon what they see here. That is the purpose of the forum rules regarding cites and why we attempt to correct faulty impressions. I repeat, it is NOT a personal thing. There is no me vs you.
OCDO is very much a forum based on the laws and citing them. With out such a requirement, everything here would be hearsay. Please read Rule #5
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
A little background may help your perception. For many years I was an instructor attached to our academy, one of my off-spring is the Senior Instructor at the State Academy so I am not entirely w/o knowledge and resources.
Your cites still do not support your premise that you qualify under LEOSA to carry in any state w/o permit. What your cites do is authorize you to "arrest" a prisoner/inmate. In our state parlance this falls under maintaining "custody and control". You do not have what is commonly called power of "statutory arrest" as a municipal LEO would have.
I do not anticipate that my points will convince you, but it is my fervent hope that you will not put yourself at risk by doing what you apparently believe is right in this case. The cost could be extreme. I also do not want anyone else to simply accept your premise.
I do look forward to Florida one day getting OC legalized and strongly encourage you to get your permit to conceal, especially if you travel out of state.
If you ever get to Virgina, I'd be most happy to share a meal with you and chat a while as friends. Just don't conceal here w/o an accepted permit.
Last edited:
michigan0626
Regular Member
Good to meet you too, Marc. Never was there an attempt to attack you personally or in the vernacular to "flame" you. It has always been about the content. Bear in mind that many people read these posts and will develop opinions based upon what they see here. That is the purpose of the forum rules regarding cites and why we attempt to correct faulty impressions. I repeat, it is NOT a personal thing. There is no me vs you.
OCDO is very much a forum based on the laws and citing them. With out such a requirement, everything here would be hearsay. Please read Rule #5
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
A little background may help your perception. For many years I was an instructor attached to our academy, one of my off-spring is the Senior Instructor at the State Academy so I am not entirely w/o knowledge and resources.
Your cites still do not support your premise that you qualify under LEOSA to carry in any state w/o permit. What your cites do is authorize you to "arrest" a prisoner/inmate. In our state parlance this falls under maintaining "custody and control". You do not have what is commonly called power of "statutory arrest" as a municipal LEO would have.
I do not anticipate that my points will convince you, but it is my fervent hope that you will not put yourself at risk by doing what you apparently believe is right in this case. The cost could be extreme. I also do not want anyone else to simply accept your premise.
I do look forward to Florida one day getting OC legalized and strongly encourage you to get your permit to conceal, especially if you travel out of state.
If you ever get to Virgina, I'd be most happy to share a meal with you and chat a while as friends. Just don't conceal here w/o an accepted permit.
First, I do have the ability to arrest citizens, not just prisoners.
Second, id like to one day come to Virginia and thank the founders of this website for starting one of the greatest movements for second amendment rights. I don't know how close you are to Petersburg, but the federal prison there is on my short list of choices for a possible transfer spot. Maybe then we can have an oc event and shoot a bit.
The Petersburg facility is about 25 miles from Richmond. It is considered a "country club" by many - good place to work from what I hear.
Always a lot going on in the area between VCDL and the OC community - both very active groups with the lobbying and social functions. VCDL has served as the model for numerous other grass roots, pro-self defense organizations. Proud to be a member.
BTW - we all have the power of arrest. It's called "citizen's arrest". :lol:
michigan0626
Regular Member
When ever I get into a discussion or argument, and I believe I am right I try to research the facts to prove I am right. But I guess the facts that I presented are not good enough. So, desperate times come to desperate messures. So now I am resorting to cheating. I emailed my institutions lawyer to try and find me all the official legal mumbo jumbo.
So, we agree to disagree.
Petersburg has two institutions. One is a low security, the other is a medium facility. I work at a Penitentiary down here. Im thinking about someday going there as a Lieutenant. Either at Petersburg, VA or Butler, NC. Ive heard great things about this places as far as a place to live. The only problem is that everyone else has heard the great things, and its difficult to get there. But, Im only 26 with a minimum of 22 years left before I can retire, so I all I have is time to wait. *tick tock, tick tock*
michigan0626
Regular Member
I know its wikipedia but I also found this.
also wiki
I read somewhere on another forum that Virginia does not consider their corrections officers leo's. It doesnt matter is Virginia recognise them as leo's or not, if they meet the federal guidelines persuint to LEOSA, then they are covered.
I know some people think CO's arent law enforcement officers, especially cops on the beat. But, if you asked every cop if they are willing to spend 8 hours a day around the people the arrested, Im sure you would get a majority that would say no. Cops are with a criminal for what, 2 hours; CO's are with a criminal 24-7 for decades. Im not saying CO's are better than cops, or that cops are better or more important than CO's. We are dependant on each other, but for cops to say they are better or more important or that we arent leo's is professional snobbery.-my 2 cents
also wiki
I read somewhere on another forum that Virginia does not consider their corrections officers leo's. It doesnt matter is Virginia recognise them as leo's or not, if they meet the federal guidelines persuint to LEOSA, then they are covered.
I know some people think CO's arent law enforcement officers, especially cops on the beat. But, if you asked every cop if they are willing to spend 8 hours a day around the people the arrested, Im sure you would get a majority that would say no. Cops are with a criminal for what, 2 hours; CO's are with a criminal 24-7 for decades. Im not saying CO's are better than cops, or that cops are better or more important than CO's. We are dependant on each other, but for cops to say they are better or more important or that we arent leo's is professional snobbery.-my 2 cents
Will be interested to see his reply, recognizing that answers are always based on how the question is posed. We do not disagree on some aspects, just how far they apply. Thanks for seeing that there is no animosity intended.
Personally, I would prefer Virgina over NC, no flames from the Tarheels please). I have lived in both states and and much more satisfied with the Virginia lifestyle. That said I would avoid both Petersburg and the City of Richmond proper in selecting a locale in which to live - the suburbs and the counties are much more attractive and driving time is minimal.
michigan0626
Regular Member
I currently live in a subdivision. Its not a suburb of Orlando, but more like the suburb of the suburb of Orlando.
I have (2) requirements for when I finally do move.
1-I will buy a minimum of at least 10, but preferably 40 acres. *waverable*
2-I will NEVER purchase a home with an HOA ever again. *non-waverable*
I have (2) requirements for when I finally do move.
1-I will buy a minimum of at least 10, but preferably 40 acres. *waverable*
2-I will NEVER purchase a home with an HOA ever again. *non-waverable*
There are a great number of cites available filled with interpretations and opinions as to whether COs are law enforcement. A preponderance of them suggest that they are not. Va. DOC and JCJS (http://www.dcjs.virginia.gov/) say they are not. My point here is not to renew that debate, but to acknowledge that there are differences in how this is viewed.
Even if your thoughts might be 100% right, I would not want to see your future jeopardized by being a test case. Better would be for congress to make the necessary changes in the laws to clarify this, one way or the other - don't see that high on their list of priorities though.
Still plenty of land (acreage) available - absolutely beautiful country, water, trees and freedom. In many areas with that size piece of land you could have your own private range - only problem being that you would likely find friends you didn't know you had.
I know what you mean about HOAs - in another previous life I was in real estate, so have distinct opinions about that also. Want my home to be my castle, not run by a committee or in accordance with covenants and restrictions.
michigan0626
Regular Member
So would you suggest areas in between the Petersburg and Richmond, ie Chester, Chesterfield. Or, would it be cheaper to buy acreage along the cities spead out south along highway 40?
I'll see if I can get Peter Nap to chime in on this - he knows more about rural Virginia than anybody I know. He is http://news.oldva.org/ and a heck of a cinematographer too - see some of rural Va in his "Virginia Spotlights."
Land is where you find it, but now is a good time to find it.
Start looking at foreclosures on acreage then see if you can arrange a short sale before it goes on the block.
The best buys are in Danville and surrounding areas but for what you're looking for, I'd look at Agricultural Counties right around Petersburg. You won't find the deals on the net, you have to get out and talk to the locals. Ask everyone you see if they know any land for sale.
The best deals will be estate properties and be prepared for a lot of wheeling by your Lawyer to get quiet possession. It takes time but is worth it.
michigan0626
Regular Member
I have done additional review in the last few days and do find this in your behalf and find it easier to consolidate my readings with this Wiki quote:
According to a January 31, 2005 memorandum from the Attorney General of the United States, certain employees of some branches of the federal Justice Department are among those covered by the LEOSA. The memo said: "The [Justice] Department considers the following components to be agencies whose current employees may qualify as LEOs for purposes of the Act: the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives; the Drug Enforcement Administration; the Federal Bureau of Investigation; the Federal Bureau of Prisons; the Office of the Inspector General; and the United States Marshals Service. Of course, any particular employee of one of these components independently must meet each of the specified statutory qualifications to qualify as an LEO under the Act.
The unfortunate thing is that the attorney's general opinion (formal or informal) are not statute law, nor do they carry the weight of case law. Personally, I would rather see this cleared up at the proper level (Congress) than see the individual officer bear the brunt of potentially dealing with this in court.
Meanwhile, it is a plus that you intend to get your permit to cover both bases (OC and CC) as there will the additional personal benefit in states willing to take you to task.
I leave it with one of my grandfather's favorite end-all lines, " You may be right."
Come see us now, ya hear.
michigan0626
Regular Member
Read that previously also - it specifically refers to limiting the power of arrest to inmates or others on the facility property.
All things considered, I found the Attorney's General "memo" more telling than anything else.
Virginia has and likely will continue to defend their position and I suspect would fight the determination as unconstitutional, a violation of state's rights. There is no doubt in my mind, that they would fight it in court all the way.
Long story made short - our lawmakers do NOT see COs as being trained the same as LEOs and will not willingly give them either statutory power of arrest beyond the specifics of their duty assignments or authorize/allow off duty CC w/o a permit.
Constitutional Carry is the answer.
michigan0626
Regular Member
I dont know. I read it at this:
Arrest Citizen or inmate
On or Off BOP property for
111 (assaulting officers)
751 (escape)
752 (assisting escape)
OR,
Arrest Citizen or inmate
only ON BOP property for
661 (theft)
1361 (depredation of property)
1363 (destruction of property)
1791 (contraband)
1792 (mutiny and riot)
1793 (trespass)
Arrest Citizen or inmate
On or Off BOP property for
111 (assaulting officers)
751 (escape)
752 (assisting escape)
OR,
Arrest Citizen or inmate
only ON BOP property for
661 (theft)
1361 (depredation of property)
1363 (destruction of property)
1791 (contraband)
1792 (mutiny and riot)
1793 (trespass)
Not disagreeing with that. In fact I think we are saying the same thing differently to that regard.