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Thread: Open carry in a Meijer?

  1. #1
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    Unhappy Open carry in a Meijer?

    So I was reading about, and it seems to me the consensus here is that without a CPL, you may NOT carry anywhere that sells any kind of alcohol, so I can't legally open carry in Meijer without having a CPL? If this is true, it sucks. I plan to open carry a fair bit, but I sure hope I get my CPL soon. I do some OC right now, but I didn't realize I was on such a short leash, I thought the same PFZs applied to OC ad to concealed. Is there a resource listing all of the "OC PFZs"?

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGKzoo View Post
    Is there a resource listing all of the "OC PFZs"?
    MCL 750.234d

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.


    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    You not only cannot carry it in Meijer but you cannot carry it anywhere on their property. You cannot walk across the parking lot or cut across the lawn of any of the places listed above. There is some spirited debate on that but I tend to interpret grey areas in the law conservatively.

    Oh, and they do not have to actually sell alcohol; they only need a license to do so.

    You can use this link http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/ to do a county search of all liquor licenses.

    So without a CPL your only choice is to seek permission from any place you frequent that would be included on the above list. I'd suggest getting any permissions in writing.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 02-26-2011 at 02:11 AM.
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    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Bronson is correct.

    Something else that may help you is the Open Carry Guide Project stickied at the top of the forum.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Welcome.

    This should help.

    Stickies are your friend!

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...y-Pocket-Cards
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    Regular Member quarter horseman's Avatar
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    Welcome to ocdo! carry on!

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGKzoo View Post
    So I was reading about, and it seems to me the consensus here is that without a CPL, you may NOT carry anywhere that sells any kind of alcohol
    It's not just consensus here, it's the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIGKzoo
    . . . so I can't legally open carry in Meijer without having a CPL?
    If the Meijer has a liquor license, that is correct. Most, if not all, do. There's a handy link posted in a comment above for checking locations *before* you OC there. If you are in a situation where you can't check, err on the side of extreme caution. Assume any place that retails beverages or sells beverages with food includes alcohol in their stock of beverages and they have a liquor license.


    Quote Originally Posted by SIGKzoo
    I didn't realize I was on such a short leash, I thought . . .
    That sounds like the opening line to the defense attorney you hire because you got busted due to not being prepared. Avoid that by reading the material here, asking questions, and I would recommend OC'ing first at an OC gathering or with your local experienced OC'ers.

    Welcome aboard!
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Lightbulb Yeah, my bad...

    I even had this law bookmarked on the MSL website, I went head-first into my cpl so I had been looking at those laws lately and forgot about this one. I am such a blond sometimes. Here's hoping I get my cpl soon, though I'll still open carry. Thank you all for the warm welcomes.

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    Exclamation Wait!!!!

    According to the chart above posted by stainless, a CPL holder can open carry in the typical pistol free zones? This can't be right... Can it? Can someone link me to a Michigan law that backs this up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGKzoo View Post
    According to the chart above posted by stainless, a CPL holder can open carry in the typical pistol free zones? This can't be right... Can it? Can someone link me to a Michigan law that backs this up?
    A CPL holder can Open Carry in some of these zones. Look at the MSP update and there are two Attorney General opinions to back this up.

    MCL 750.234d exempts a CPL from the places listed in .234d. They just have to OC.

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

    Sec. 234d.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
    Last edited by Venator; 02-25-2011 at 12:10 PM.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  11. #11
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGKzoo View Post
    According to the chart above posted by stainless, a CPL holder can open carry in the typical pistol free zones? This can't be right... Can it? Can someone link me to a Michigan law that backs this up?
    Please

    Stop asking VERY basic questions that are answered in the sticky threads and GO READ THE STICKY THREADS....then read them again, and again.

    Do your research first. Members of Michigan Open Carry and Open Carry Dot Org have made it very easy if you if you just ready the stickies.

    Welcome to OCDO hope to meet you at one of the many gatherings we have.

  12. #12
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGKzoo View Post
    According to the chart above posted by stainless, a CPL holder can open carry in the typical pistol free zones? This can't be right...
    Dude, seriously, it seems like it might be just a matter of time before you get yourself jammed up. You are OC'ing without a CPL, and you are demonstrating some significant lack of knowledge or misunderstandings of laws.

    I'll reiterate my earlier suggestion, with more urgency: OC with a local OC gathering or experienced OC'er before you OC by yourself. I'll add a suggestion: ask those OC'ers you get with to let you know when they think you're good to go to OC solo.
    Last edited by DanM; 02-25-2011 at 12:57 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    I would suggest meeting up with one of us in person to go over this with you. Doug can be abrasive, but he knows what he's talking about, and Dan is right, you need to learn a bit more about OC laws. Stay away from places that sell alcohol, stay out of pistol free areas, transport properly, and when in doubt, ASK.

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    Exclamation Ok...

    Ok, so I'm sorry for coming across as a noob here. I promise I'm not really an idiot. I have read tons of info on the Michigan state police website and on the Michigan legislature website, and have many pages bookmarked, I have also completed my course required for my cpl. I have read plenty of conflicting info from official sources regarding cpl holders and "pistol free zones" I think it's a sketchy spot in the written law. I did skim through the stickied topics but none of the titles popped out to me for this, I suppose I should re-check them all each time I have a new question before posting it. I do plan on attending the dinner in Kalamazoo march 22, I think it is. I hope to meet some of you there.
    Last edited by SIGKzoo; 02-25-2011 at 01:59 PM.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Hey SIGKzoo... Welcome!

    Please don't be discouraged. We all started out dumber than a box of rocks about OC and had to learn all the ins and outs. But one thing we did learn really quickly is that the smallest goof up and the littlest misunderstanding of the law would have extremely serious consequences. And so we, just as you are now, read everything we could get our eyes on and asked as many questions as we could think of and didn't let nay sayers or grumpy folks keep us from keepin' on.

    Again... Welcome!
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGKzoo View Post
    Ok, so I'm sorry for coming across as a noob here. I promise I'm not really an idiot. I have read tons of info on the Michigan state police website and on the Michigan legislature website, and have many pages bookmarked, I have also completed my course required for my cpl. I have read plenty of conflicting info from official sources regarding cpl holders and "pistol free zones" I think it's a sketchy spot in the written law. I did skim through the stickied topics but none of the titles popped out to me for this, I suppose I should re-check them all each time I have a new question before posting it. I do plan on attending the dinner in Kalamazoo march 22, I think it is. I hope to meet some of you there.
    Well, we have been OCing in those sketchy spots for over three years. While many areas of law are open to interpretation, the consensus of many legal groups (Attorney General, MSP, Several PD around the state) is that you can OC in the places listed in .234d with a CPL.

    Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002 in part… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

    AG opinion 7113 in part

    ...This language is significantly broader than that employed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act. By its express terms, section 234d(1) of the Penal Code applies to firearms generally, not merely to pistols, and applies to firearms whether concealed or not. Subsection (2) of this provision creates several specific exceptions to this prohibition, two of which are germane to your inquiry. It provides, in pertinent part that:

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    Similarly, section 237a(4) of the Penal Code prohibits possession of a firearm in a weapon free school zone, a term defined in section 237a(6)(d) as "school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property." Like section 234d(2), the prohibition against possessing firearms in a school zone does not apply to a peace officer or to a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon. Section 237a(5).

    If a reserve officer qualifies as a peace officer, then the officer is exempt from the prohibition contained in sections 234d(1) and 237a(4) of the Penal Code concerning the possession of firearms on specified premises. If not, sections 234d(2)(c) and 237a(5)(c) of the Penal Code also exempt "[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon." A license issued by a county concealed weapon licensing board under section 5b(7) of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act clearly satisfies the latter exemption. Thus, possession of such a license would enable a reserve police officer to carry an exposed, holstered pistol in the "gun free zones" described in sections 234d and 237a of the Penal Code.

    It is my opinion, therefore, that a uniformed reserve police officer acting as an unpaid volunteer for a local police agency may carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act; and if the officer is either a fully authorized "peace officer" or, alternatively, possesses a valid concealed pistol license issued under the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act, he or she may also carry an exposed, holstered pistol within the gun-free zones established by the Michigan Penal Code.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    I rather see the same question asked 100 times then to have someone who does not know or understand the law get jammed up because he is afraid to ASK A DARN QUESTION because someone barked at him.

    So you ago ahead and ask you questions, those who want to help will help, those who want to bark will bark!

    The idea here is to educate those who want to OC not scare them away!
    Last edited by Onnie; 02-25-2011 at 03:49 PM.
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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    I rather see the same question asked 100 times then to have someone who does not know or understand the law get jammed up because he is afraid to ASK A DARN QUESTION because someone barked at him.

    So you ago ahead and ask you questions, those who want to help will help, those who want to bark will bark!

    The idea here is to educate those who want to OC not scare them away!
    The point being is that he did NOT read AND UNDERSTAND all the sticky threads.

    If he did, he wouldn't have asked the question.

    I would hate to just answer people's 1 or 2 questions and have them think they then know all that is needed to know to OC without a CPL.

    On one side we MUST stress the need to know the law inside and out because the downside can have life long repercussions.

    I would much rather someone think me a jerk then have them go out and unknowingly commit a felony or even a misdemeanor.

    I really do care about the welfare of my fellow gun owners and carriers.
    Last edited by dougwg; 02-25-2011 at 04:15 PM.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onnie View Post
    I rather see the same question asked 100 times then to have someone who does not know or understand the law get jammed up because he is afraid to ASK A DARN QUESTION because someone barked at him.

    So you ago ahead and ask you questions, those who want to help will help, those who want to bark will bark!

    The idea here is to educate those who want to OC not scare them away!
    I strongly agree. I have brought this up before on more than one occasion.
    In the last year or so, I have PM'd some of the newbs to the site for just this reason.
    Via PM, they stated they would NOT be back to such a bunch of "grumps". They have however been in contact with me by phone or PM and "learned" their way around the site without having to "ask" anymore.
    With a "strongly" worded answer, why would they bother to ask any further, much less read anything on the site.
    I for one didn't know a damn thing about a "sticky" until AFTER I was repeatedly accused of being a TROLL. So I fully understand how the OP and others, feel when "greeted" in such a manner.
    As stated before; these are just the lowly opinions of an old fart. Take it for what it's worth.

    JMO

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    The point being is that he did NOT read AND UNDERSTAND all the sticky threads.

    If he did, he wouldn't have asked the question.

    I would hate to just answer people's 1 or 2 questions and have them think they then know all that is needed to know to OC without a CPL.

    On one side we MUST stress the need to know the law inside and out because the downside can have life long repercussions.

    I would much rather someone think me a jerk then have them go out and unknowingly commit a felony or even a misdemeanor.

    I really do care about the welfare of my fellow gun owners and carriers.
    Cheese & crackers- somebody oughta write a book on OC!
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Cheese & crackers- somebody oughta write a book on OC!
    Don't know if you're kidding or not, but assuming you aren't, I already did.

    http://www.citizensleaguesd.com/
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    Question

    Heres a thought MI 51% rule to establishments that sell liquor other than restruants....

  24. #24
    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougwg View Post
    The point being is that he did NOT read AND UNDERSTAND all the sticky threads.

    If he did, he wouldn't have asked the question.

    I would hate to just answer people's 1 or 2 questions and have them think they then know all that is needed to know to OC without a CPL.

    On one side we MUST stress the need to know the law inside and out because the downside can have life long repercussions.

    I would much rather someone think me a jerk then have them go out and unknowingly commit a felony or even a misdemeanor.

    I really do care about the welfare of my fellow gun owners and carriers.
    instead of PMing and talking to him, you berated him on a public forum

    maybe he did read them, and just don't understand some or parts of what he read!

    maybe he just did not see the parts he was looking for, you just can not assume he did not read the sticky threads. And yea, maybe he asked the same question more than once. So What. Maybe there is also someone out there who can use that knowledge again as well. Stickys are for easy reference but they are not easy to read or understand to those who are new. (note I am raising my hand here)

    I have everything I can print on Michigan Laws sitting next to me for reference and even with it tabbed and outlined for ease, I still have trouble sometimes finding EXACTLY what I am looking for. This is not my first rodeo with researching facts.

    My problem with some people on these forums is that they forget, once upon a time, they were new to OCing/CCing and ignorant of the laws regarding handguns and well too often the noobs are looked down upon and insulted for just asking questions and making statements. I has barked at in one of my first posts and had no plans of joining MOC.

    I am not expert on OC matters, in fact I am often wrong on things I assume are correct, but I am not stupid, in fact I hold a Masters Degree, yet everyday I find something I don't fully understand and everyday I learn something new and sometimes even something exciting. I am at awe over some of those on this forum for not only their knowledge of the MCL Laws but in some, their elegance in relaying that knowledge in a way that everyone can understand.

    I have seen some of the the most horrid letters written to anti-gun establishments that have made me cringe and then I have seem some of the most well though out letters that have amazed me.

    I have belonged to several clubs before the advent of the internet and forums. When face to face, most people will hold and bite their tongue if something bugs them. By the time the next meeting came up, the incident blew over. Unfortunately when the same club went over to internet forums too often its way too easy to criticize someone IMMEDIATELY without thinking about the other persons feelings and others who who read it. The internet forums allows people who would not normally bludgeon someone with sarcastic statements to do so by hiding behind their words.

    We can not expect everyone who comes to this site to be as intellectually attuned to understanding the forum and the MCL's regarding the open carry of weapons as some older members of the site, but we don't need to be so belligerent as to run them off either!

    I believe you do care about the warfare of others, it shows in your posts, but we need supporters to our cause. As someone who has been on the other end of someones blast, next time PM THEM and tutor them in finding what they are looking for. If that's not in you, ignore them. They may have missed the thread, they may have misunderstood the thread, or like me, the may not even know what a sticky was until told. Our job here is to pass on our knowledge and experiences to others who are of like mind, but you can not do that by posting a remark for all the world to see that in effect berates someone for asking a question.
    Last edited by Onnie; 02-25-2011 at 11:26 PM.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    So you would rather I just give him the fish instead of him learning how to fish?

    I was very nice in my post. I said please and welcomed him to OCDO even.

    His questions (that I hear all the time asked by new people) as well as his posts in their entirety, is very telling. They tell me he hasn't read the stickies or hasn't read them enough to absorb the info. He should read them again and I was trying to stress that as much as I could.
    Last edited by dougwg; 02-25-2011 at 08:28 PM.

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