Open carry in a Meijer?

dougwg said:

The point being is that he did NOT read AND UNDERSTAND all the sticky threads.

If he did, he wouldn't have asked the question.

I would hate to just answer people's 1 or 2 questions and have them think they then know all that is needed to know to OC without a CPL.

On one side we MUST stress the need to know the law inside and out because the downside can have life long repercussions.

I would much rather someone think me a jerk then have them go out and unknowingly commit a felony or even a misdemeanor.

I really do care about the welfare of my fellow gun owners and carriers.

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Cheese & crackers- somebody oughta write a book on OC!:lol:

Shadow Bear said:

Cheese & crackers- somebody oughta write a book on OC!:lol:

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Don't know if you're kidding or not, but assuming you aren't, I already did.

http://www.citizensleaguesd.com/

Heres a thought MI 51% rule to establishments that sell liquor other than restruants....

dougwg said:

The point being is that he did NOT read AND UNDERSTAND all the sticky threads.

If he did, he wouldn't have asked the question.

I would hate to just answer people's 1 or 2 questions and have them think they then know all that is needed to know to OC without a CPL.

On one side we MUST stress the need to know the law inside and out because the downside can have life long repercussions.

I would much rather someone think me a jerk then have them go out and unknowingly commit a felony or even a misdemeanor.

I really do care about the welfare of my fellow gun owners and carriers.

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instead of PMing and talking to him, you berated him on a public forum

maybe he did read them, and just don't understand some or parts of what he read!

maybe he just did not see the parts he was looking for, you just can not assume he did not read the sticky threads. And yea, maybe he asked the same question more than once. So What. Maybe there is also someone out there who can use that knowledge again as well. Stickys are for easy reference but they are not easy to read or understand to those who are new. (note I am raising my hand here)

I have everything I can print on Michigan Laws sitting next to me for reference and even with it tabbed and outlined for ease, I still have trouble sometimes finding EXACTLY what I am looking for. This is not my first rodeo with researching facts.

My problem with some people on these forums is that they forget, once upon a time, they were new to OCing/CCing and ignorant of the laws regarding handguns and well too often the noobs are looked down upon and insulted for just asking questions and making statements. I has barked at in one of my first posts and had no plans of joining MOC.

I am not expert on OC matters, in fact I am often wrong on things I assume are correct, but I am not stupid, in fact I hold a Masters Degree, yet everyday I find something I don't fully understand and everyday I learn something new and sometimes even something exciting. I am at awe over some of those on this forum for not only their knowledge of the MCL Laws but in some, their elegance in relaying that knowledge in a way that everyone can understand.

I have seen some of the the most horrid letters written to anti-gun establishments that have made me cringe and then I have seem some of the most well though out letters that have amazed me.

I have belonged to several clubs before the advent of the internet and forums. When face to face, most people will hold and bite their tongue if something bugs them. By the time the next meeting came up, the incident blew over. Unfortunately when the same club went over to internet forums too often its way too easy to criticize someone IMMEDIATELY without thinking about the other persons feelings and others who who read it. The internet forums allows people who would not normally bludgeon someone with sarcastic statements to do so by hiding behind their words.

We can not expect everyone who comes to this site to be as intellectually attuned to understanding the forum and the MCL's regarding the open carry of weapons as some older members of the site, but we don't need to be so belligerent as to run them off either!

I believe you do care about the warfare of others, it shows in your posts, but we need supporters to our cause. As someone who has been on the other end of someones blast, next time PM THEM and tutor them in finding what they are looking for. If that's not in you, ignore them. They may have missed the thread, they may have misunderstood the thread, or like me, the may not even know what a sticky was until told. Our job here is to pass on our knowledge and experiences to others who are of like mind, but you can not do that by posting a remark for all the world to see that in effect berates someone for asking a question.

So you would rather I just give him the fish instead of him learning how to fish?

I was very nice in my post. I said please and welcomed him to OCDO even.

His questions (that I hear all the time asked by new people) as well as his posts in their entirety, is very telling. They tell me he hasn't read the stickies or hasn't read them enough to absorb the info. He should read them again and I was trying to stress that as much as I could.

SIGKzoo,

Welcome to the forums, and a warm welcome to OC. If you have questions ask, if you do not feel you are getting an answer you understand, or need more explaining, feel free to ask me anytime. Some of these basic laws and rights of ours are amazing when you have not been reading them for years like most of us. The stickies can be confusing and multiply rapidly. Do what you have to do to feel comfortable with the law and this forum. Do not carry unless you know what you are doing, as if questioned you need to know the law, as the police in many cases will not.

With regards to openly carrying a handgun in a PFZ, when you have acquired a CPL, this is extremely clearly spelled out in the two laws already cited, this is not a sketchy area, just plain and simple truth. Many times our legislature creates complex laws using language and wording no layman could ever understand, well, this particular case isn't one of them.

Sheldon said:

Heres a thought MI 51% rule to establishments that sell liquor other than restruants....

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What are you saying with your post?

There is no 51% in the statue, please explain.

Onnie said:

I rather see the same question asked 100 times then to have someone who does not know or understand the law get jammed up because he is afraid to ASK A DARN QUESTION because someone barked at him.

So you ago ahead and ask you questions, those who want to help will help, those who want to bark will bark!

The idea here is to educate those who want to OC not scare them away!

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WARCHILD said:

I strongly agree. I have brought this up before on more than one occasion.
In the last year or so, I have PM'd some of the newbs to the site for just this reason.
Via PM, they stated they would NOT be back to such a bunch of "grumps". They have however been in contact with me by phone or PM and "learned" their way around the site without having to "ask" anymore.
With a "strongly" worded answer, why would they bother to ask any further, much less read anything on the site.
I for one didn't know a damn thing about a "sticky" until AFTER I was repeatedly accused of being a TROLL. So I fully understand how the OP and others, feel when "greeted" in such a manner.
As stated before; these are just the lowly opinions of an old fart. Take it for what it's worth.

JMO

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+1 guys. Michigan firearms law does not immediately make itself crystal clear, and it takes some people a while to get the whole thing to gel. Admittedly, law isn't exactly my strong suit, I never graduated, comprehension skills aren't the greatest either, but Im not an idiot. As a new-b, some here treated me like one, and if I wasn't so friggin stubborn, I would have quit. I have always been a rebel, so when people opposed me, it just strengthened my resolve, most aren't made that way, they would just leave. Sometimes a question needs to be asked and answered a few times, or explained in different ways. There are some parts of the law that I still struggle with, and as Onnie has pointed out, it can be difficult to pull out a cite of a law that you know about. I have to agree with what Doug said about answering 2 questions, the guy leaves and gets screwed, but if the person leaves because he got barked at, the same thing happens.

Onnie said:

I rather see the same question asked 100 times then to have someone who does not know or understand the law get jammed up because he is afraid to ASK A DARN QUESTION because someone barked at him.

So you ago ahead and ask you questions, those who want to help will help, those who want to bark will bark!

The idea here is to educate those who want to OC not scare them away!

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+1 no need to discourage or give someone a negative image of open carry. If you are sick of getting the questions and replying to them just don't reply.

dougwg said:

So you would rather I just give him the fish instead of him learning how to fish?

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No you are correct he needs to be taught, not yelled at for asking!

I appreciate that people have come up to bat for me. Those of you who are critical... I try to explain that I have read all of the laws, I'm just one of those people that likes to "talk it out" to get everything to settle in. My whole mistake here was a shift in my thought process, I have been doing everything for my CPL and been reading those training materials and am awaiting my CPL, so that's where all of my energy was when I started OC'ing (not in a meijer, or anywhere that sells liquor by the way) while I wait for my license. This is what got me thinking about OC and how those options change when I don't have my CPL vs. when I do have it. So I caught myself off guard for a bit, that's all I think it was... really. If someone wants to quiz me on the MUST-KNOW of Michigan OC without a CPL, or to coach me if I happen to be wrong (it could happen) please feel free! My AIM ID is sbcathlon

DanM said:

It's not just consensus here, it's the law.



If the Meijer has a liquor license, that is correct. Most, if not all, do. There's a handy link posted in a comment above for checking locations *before* you OC there. If you are in a situation where you can't check, err on the side of extreme caution. Assume any place that retails beverages or sells beverages with food includes alcohol in their stock of beverages and they have a liquor license.




That sounds like the opening line to the defense attorney you hire because you got busted due to not being prepared. Avoid that by reading the material here, asking questions, and I would recommend OC'ing first at an OC gathering or with your local experienced OC'ers.

Welcome aboard!

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I believe OUR consensus is NO GUN LAWS but the 2A & ART1 SEC6!

Venator said:

What are you saying with your post?

There is no 51% in the statue, please explain.

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The exemption that applies to restaurants and other establishments that serve liquor... AKA 51% of their income must be derived from the sales of booze before it goes off limits, so why not stores, as there are liquor only stores, and then there is Meijers who's principle income is not from the sale of Acholhol....

Sheldon said:

The exemption that applies to restaurants and other establishments that serve liquor... AKA 51% of their income must be derived from the sales of booze before it goes off limits, so why not stores, as there are liquor only stores, and then there is Meijers who's principle income is not from the sale of Acholhol....

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The statute says primary source of income and does not state 51%.
Also there are two statutes involved. If you do not have a CPL you can not possess a firearm in ANY place the has any type of liquor license (unless you have permission).

You can carry concealed or open in any place that has a liquor license, but a bar, where you can carry but only OC.

I must say I've learned more from the reasoned and articulate discussions then I would have had I only pored over the legalese in the statues. Some of it may have been redundant to the more seasoned members, but I've found it interesting to see the lively and thought provoking discussions I've seen.

Surely we have much to lose if someone does not fully understand the full impact of the responsibility of OC (or even CC, for that matter). One mistake can be a major setback for us all. If we do not all hang together, we will surely hang separately.

It may be aggravating, but if we handle them with grace & dignity, we will not only win friends to the movement, but also admirers outside.

And, those who oppose us would be given pause to see a unified movement, one in mind and spirit, and realize we will not be easily dissuaded.

I doff my cap to those of you who have campaigned long and hard, at great personal sacrifice, to bring the movement this far. I am a newcomer, and my opinion counts little.

I humbly ask, on behalf of all newcomers, for patience in our inexperience, in our incessant, and perhaps inane questions, and our abundance in caution as we follow in the paths you have so ably blazed before us.

I don't think your opinion counts as little. We are a strength in numbers, and each number is counted.

Shadow Bear said:

I must say I've learned more from the reasoned and articulate discussions then I would have had I only pored over the legalese in the statues. Some of it may have been redundant to the more seasoned members, but I've found it interesting to see the lively and thought provoking discussions I've seen.

Surely we have much to lose if someone does not fully understand the full impact of the responsibility of OC (or even CC, for that matter). One mistake can be a major setback for us all. If we do not all hang together, we will surely hang separately.

It may be aggravating, but if we handle them with grace & dignity, we will not only win friends to the movement, but also admirers outside.

And, those who oppose us would be given pause to see a unified movement, one in mind and spirit, and realize we will not be easily dissuaded.

I doff my cap to those of you who have campaigned long and hard, at great personal sacrifice, to bring the movement this far. I am a newcomer, and my opinion counts little.

I humbly ask, on behalf of all newcomers, for patience in our inexperience, in our incessant, and perhaps inane questions, and our abundance in caution as we follow in the paths you have so ably blazed before us.

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Well said!

OC in place that sell alcohol with IL FOID card?

If you can OC in MI with an IL FOID (love those acronyms) , can you OC in a place that sells alcohol with the FOID? The FOID (in IL) does allow holders to technically conceal, as in a case or vehicle console. I do not believe MI law makes a distinction between loaded or unloaded as to whether a firearm is concealed.

lockman said:

If you can OC in MI with an IL FOID (love those acronyms) , can you OC in a place that sells alcohol with the FOID? The FOID (in IL) does allow holders to technically conceal, as in a case or vehicle console. I do not believe MI law makes a distinction between loaded or unloaded as to whether a firearm is concealed.

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My spin is if it is not a concealed carry license I doubt you could OC in a Bar. My understanding is that the FOID card is a license to possess firearms not to carry them concealed (In the traditional sense, as opposed to concealed unloaded in a case/trunk.)

The Michigan statute states: (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

They could OC if they had permission from owner/agent of bar.

So, you can carry concealed in Meijer's as long as you have a CPL? as well as OC, I'm confused..