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Thread: Key Arena Policy

  1. #1
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Key Arena Policy

    Hey all,

    I am going to the Clapton concert tonight....

    Looking for an update on anyone there recently and carry (most likely concealed) and information.

    Seattle city code: (hasn't this been upended?)
    SMC 12A.14.083

    Weapons in public places.

    A. It is unlawful to knowingly carry or shoot any spring gun, air gun, sling
    or slingshot in, upon or onto any public place.

    B. For purposes of this section, "public place" means an area generally open
    to the public, regardless of whether it is privately owned, and includes,
    but is not limited to, streets, sidewalks, bridges, alleys, plazas, parks,
    parking lots, transit stations, transit vehicles and buildings.

    (Ord. 123191 , Section 9, 2009; Ord. 119010 Section 10, 1998:
    Ord. 117569 Section 123, 1995: Ord. 90047 Section 42, 1961.)

    Key Center rules:
    18. “Weapon” means any firearm or any instrument designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind, or any knife having a blade of three inches or more, or any straight-edge razor, spring stick, metal knuckles, blackjack, bat, club or other bludgeon-type instrument, or any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, such as nun chahkas, nunchakus or shurikens, or chains, or whips, or stars, or darts, or stun gun, or taser, or any disc having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled.
    19. “Weapon violation” means possession or use of a weapon in violation of Chapter 9.41 of the Revised Code of Washington, Chapter 12A.14 of the Seattle Municipal Code or other applicable statute or ordinance.


    I don't care so much about the arena, it's just getting back and forth to my vehicle after the gig is over...


    jt59
    Last edited by jt59; 02-26-2011 at 01:32 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Conceal.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Conceal.
    Ditto!

    Unless they are "patting down", or using scanners, just conceal (with CPL of course).

    Something to consider is that the facility is being "leased" by the promoter and he gets to make the rules. If the concert was promoted by the City, different situation.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member NavyMike's Avatar
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    just don't carry a spring gun, air gun, sling or slingshot and you are not in violation of Seattle City Code.

    Rcw 9.41.300 would exempt you from any ban on carrying a pistol at key arena IF you have a CPL.

    Qoute para 2 part b:

    **** (b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, except that such restrictions shall not apply to:

    **** (i) Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070 or exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060; or
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyMike View Post
    just don't carry a spring gun, air gun, sling or slingshot and you are not in violation of Seattle City Code.

    Rcw 9.41.300 would exempt you from any ban on carrying a pistol at key arena IF you have a CPL.

    Qoute para 2 part b:

    **** (b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, except that such restrictions shall not apply to:

    **** (i) Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070 or exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060; or
    This is true only if the city is actually operating the arena for the venue. Once it is leased to someone the lessee is now considered to be the operator and can restrict firearms.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Regular Member NavyMike's Avatar
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    They have weapon lockers

    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post

    I don't care so much about the arena, it's just getting back and forth to my vehicle after the gig is over...


    jt59
    if that's the case, they have lockers. From their web site:


    Weapons Prohibited
    Guests, including law enforcement personnel not present in an official capacity, are prohibited from bringing weapons into the arena. KeyArena does provide weapon lockers. See any KeyArena Admissions staff member to check your weapon. Weapons include, but are not limited to, the following: firearms, explosives, stun guns, handcuffs, brass knuckles, sticks, clubs, batons, martial arts instruments, pepper spray, tear gas, knives, etc. Guests found in possession of the above-mentioned items will be asked to remove the item from the arena or dispose of it. Guests who refuse to comply will be ejected from the arena and may be subject to arrest.
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Ditto!

    Unless they are "patting down", or using scanners, just conceal (with CPL of course).

    Something to consider is that the facility is being "leased" by the promoter and he gets to make the rules. If the concert was promoted by the City, different situation.
    Reminds me...

    In December 2001 (yes that 2001) I was in Portland going to a Blazer game. They have hand scanners and were 'wanding' everyone. I was carrying my BUG (Keltec P32) in my rear pocket. I stood and watched for a bit and they were all doing a pretty good job of wanding the rear end. However, they were missing something. I excused myself from my buddy and walked across the way to the nearby restaurant and went into the bathroom. I took my BUG out of my pants pocket and put it on the inside pocket of my leather jacket. I went back out and joined him and took my jacket off. When it was my turn to be wanded I simply held my jacket out to my side as requested while the 'security' wanded my person. It was a great game. Not so good for personal security....(except mine)
    Live Free or Die!

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    It does not appear, from the various links and regulations posted above, that the ban on weapons has anything to do with the promoter. It seems to be a regulation of Key Arena itself, and that means that it is preempted by the State. Therefore, you can carry your firearm so long as you have a CPL. That being said, I would probably just conceal and take advantage of the lockers if the issue comes up. You can always wait to see if they notice your gun (ie search) and then say "Yes, I will need a locker for that please". You certainly don't want to miss your concert over the issue.

    So how do you guys deal with concealing large firearms in a situation where you don't want it to be an issue, or do you just take a smaller gun to those? I went to a Silvertips game in Everett with my 45 on my hip. Had a hockey jersey over it but it just seemed to me to be printing. Might have been my imagination and maybe I just need a better hockey jersey made of thicker material but I was pretty uncomfortable the whole evening because I didn't want to deal with the discussion if someone made an issue of it. The next time I just locked it in my car which wouldn't have been my first choice.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heresolong View Post
    It does not appear, from the various links and regulations posted above, that the ban on weapons has anything to do with the promoter. It seems to be a regulation of Key Arena itself, and that means that it is preempted by the State. Therefore, you can carry your firearm so long as you have a CPL. That being said, I would probably just conceal and take advantage of the lockers if the issue comes up. You can always wait to see if they notice your gun (ie search) and then say "Yes, I will need a locker for that please". You certainly don't want to miss your concert over the issue.

    So how do you guys deal with concealing large firearms in a situation where you don't want it to be an issue, or do you just take a smaller gun to those? I went to a Silvertips game in Everett with my 45 on my hip. Had a hockey jersey over it but it just seemed to me to be printing. Might have been my imagination and maybe I just need a better hockey jersey made of thicker material but I was pretty uncomfortable the whole evening because I didn't want to deal with the discussion if someone made an issue of it. The next time I just locked it in my car which wouldn't have been my first choice.
    Those rules are "standing rules". A promoter can impose their own rules in addition. Most privately promoted events also have to provide their own insurance and the underwriter can impose even more "rules".
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    Hey all,

    I am going to the Clapton concert tonight....

    jt59
    Great Show last night eh? myself and my other half were there on the floor. i thought it was a little dissapointing that he left out some key hits...but great none the less...

  11. #11
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FedwyCC View Post
    Great Show last night eh? myself and my other half were there on the floor. i thought it was a little dissapointing that he left out some key hits...but great none the less...
    At least Clapton isn't like some of the older stars that don't do their old hits because they can't remember the words anymore. Too much "excess" to go with their "success".
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member Aryk45XD's Avatar
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    I wondered about this a little. I got patted down at the Paramount for Tool and they touched my XD, but let me through without a word. Same thing when I was wearing the PF9 to Key Arena for Mike Epps. Niether security officer asked for CCL. I've been patted down a couple of other places too, but they never even touched the gun at the normal position.

    ETA: At 140lbs, there's not a lot of places for me to "hide" a gun especially as big as a full size XD. Gotta love that Crossbreed.
    Last edited by Aryk45XD; 02-28-2011 at 11:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aryk45XD View Post
    I wondered about this a little. I got patted down at the Paramount for Tool and they touched my XD, but let me through without a word. Same thing when I was wearing the PF9 to Key Arena for Mike Epps. Niether security officer asked for CCL. So much for the illusion of safety. I've been patted down a couple of other places too, but they never even touched the gun at the normal 4O'clock position.

    ETA: At 140lbs, there's not a lot of places for me to "hide" a gun especially as big as a full size XD. Gotta love that Crossbreed.
    It might feel lighter when it's load with a snappy, so they might not have given it a second thought

    My soon to be Kel-Tec P3AT will deal with that above problem for me. I doubt a Fullsized Beretta would make it, but the little one fits pretty much anywhere.

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Whoa!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    It might feel lighter when it's load with a snappy, so they might not have given it a second thought

    My soon to be Kel-Tec P3AT will deal with that above problem for me. I doubt a Fullsized Beretta would make it, but the little one fits pretty much anywhere.
    geez! goose, i could hide your beretta!
    you should be able to hide a howitzer!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Those rules are "standing rules". A promoter can impose their own rules in addition. Most privately promoted events also have to provide their own insurance and the underwriter can impose even more "rules".
    True but, that doesn't make the standing rules legal if they conflict with state preemption.

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Chased down the answer

    The part of the story that didn't get told, was the conversation I had with an unknown security officer at Key Arena....he got pretty hostile when I asked him about the policy, that I was confused since what he was telling me was inconsistent with the information on the website and his indication that no weapons were allowed period, and that I would be thrown out if found with one....and then went on to (incorrectly) rationalize his position by stating that all Seattle City owned public building were exempt, etc. etc, and that since he was a retired SPDO, that I should just accept that.

    So, I am waiting for a phone call with Edi Birk, the Key Center, manager, but in the meantime spoke with "Lt. Tony Lucero", head of Seattle Center Security for Key Center.

    He advised me that his officer, came immediately to him and advised that he was "less professional than he should have been" with a caller and to expect a my call.

    He also said that he did not advise me correctly on their policy and availabilty of lock boxes.

    So, Here's the deal:

    Lt. Lucero was very professional and supportive of gun rights. He indicated that Seattle is pretty weird right now and that we go from 0 to 60 with the 3 inch knives and the rest of the prohibited weapons list, straight to forcing people the only option of carrying a gun for self protection and that the Mayor, depending on some court case in Kitsap, has implemented the policy that recognizes the state pre-emption, but in their use contracts with promoters of Key Arena (and others), require that they not allow firearms at their event....A clever means to get around the law until challenged....but I digress.

    He said that they have firearms lockers in his office and the procedure is:

    Advise the ticket taker (at the door) that you need to "check" a firearm with security.
    Security will escort you to the office where they will have you put your (loaded) firearm in a box.

    They do not clear the firearm when it is put away and there is only 1 key, so don't lose it.

    They will take basic information of name, address and phone, but after your gone, so is the info...they don't keep it.

    ......they have had issues in the past with people at events, forgetting their property after too much adult beverage, but after the event you can return, pick up you firearm, stick it in the holster and head home.

    I will talk with Edi Birk and ask her to update and upgrade the information on the website regarding weapons to include the lock box reference and procedures.
    Last edited by jt59; 02-28-2011 at 03:49 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Any relation to former SPD "Shooter Birk"?

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trigger Dr View Post
    Any relation to former SPD "Shooter Birk"?
    That would be a little wierd too, but hey, it's Seattle so anything is possible....I don't think I'm interested enough to ask.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heresolong View Post
    True but, that doesn't make the standing rules legal if they conflict with state preemption.
    Only time that's an issue is when they are enforced. Until then ??? If it's the promoter enforcing HIS rules, they aren't subject to preemption.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  20. #20
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    The part of the story that didn't get told, was the conversation I had with an unknown security officer at Key Arena....he got pretty hostile when I asked him about the policy, that I was confused since what he was telling me was inconsistent with the information on the website and his indication that no weapons were allowed period, and that I would be thrown out if found with one....and then went on to (incorrectly) rationalize his position by stating that all Seattle City owned public building were exempt, etc. etc, and that since he was a retired SPDO, that I should just accept that.

    So, I am waiting for a phone call with Edi Birk, the Key Center, manager, but in the meantime spoke with "Lt. Tony Lucero", head of Seattle Center Security for Key Center.

    He advised me that his officer, came immediately to him and advised that he was "less professional than he should have been" with a caller and to expect a my call.

    He also said that he did not advise me correctly on their policy and availabilty of lock boxes.

    So, Here's the deal:

    Lt. Lucero was very professional and supportive of gun rights. He indicated that Seattle is pretty weird right now and that we go from 0 to 60 with the 3 inch knives and the rest of the prohibited weapons list, straight to forcing people the only option of carrying a gun for self protection and that the Mayor, depending on some court case in Kitsap, has implemented the policy that recognizes the state pre-emption, but in their use contracts with promoters of Key Arena (and others), require that they not allow firearms at their event....A clever means to get around the law until challenged....but I digress.

    He said that they have firearms lockers in his office and the procedure is:

    Advise the ticket taker (at the door) that you need to "check" a firearm with security.
    Security will escort you to the office where they will have you put your (loaded) firearm in a box.

    They do not clear the firearm when it is put away and there is only 1 key, so don't lose it.

    They will take basic information of name, address and phone, but after your gone, so is the info...they don't keep it.

    ......they have had issues in the past with people at events, forgetting their property after too much adult beverage, but after the event you can return, pick up you firearm, stick it in the holster and head home.

    I will talk with Edi Birk and ask her to update and upgrade the information on the website regarding weapons to include the lock box reference and procedures.
    Wouldn't be "funny" if about 100 people had to use the storage lockers and they only had about a dozen available? Would also keep a good portion of their security people tied up in escort duty.
    Last edited by amlevin; 02-28-2011 at 04:06 PM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Wouldn't be "funny" if about 100 people had to use the storage lockers and they only had about a dozen available? Would also keep a good portion of their security people tied up in escort duty.
    overwhelming, actually
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    overwhelming, actually
    Having a little insight into the mentality, they'd probably just deny admittance unless the party decided to go lock it in their vehicle.

    Maybe someone could start up a "valet service" for firearms. Give them the firearm, they give you a claim check and the service retrieves it for you when you leave. They could provide the lockers and the service would probably be quicker than anything provided by the "City".
    Last edited by amlevin; 02-28-2011 at 04:52 PM.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Having a little insight into the mentality, they'd probably just deny admittance unless the party decided to go lock it in their vehicle.

    Maybe someone could start up a "valet service" for firearms. Give them the firearm, they give you a claim check and the service retrieves it for you when you leave. They could provide the lockers and the service would probably be quicker than anything provided by the "City".

    Yeah, yeah, Ok, Yeah, that's the ticket....maybe, like, we could buy out some street vendor roach coach, and then like, take out the fry daddy and cotton candy maker and replace it with some, like, bowling ball lockers (I have a source) and then like, park it in the NW corner public parking lot from Key Center for like, $15.00 and charge like, $4.00/hour, max $15.00 for the night.....call it something like "Meals on Wheels"..........wait, I got it!

    .... "Gun Runners Inc."

    Unclaimed firearms after 24 hours will be sold for unclaimed tickets....we'll check their LCCP, and hold their drivers license, sign a pre-authorized release.....although, there must be, like, some federal license involved or at a minimum, maybe like, a license for a short term pawn shop operation, and then........... imagine 6,000 people exiting the arena after a concert and some drinking, and a SPD report of VWG (Van with Guns)....and them sending out a SWAT team to investigate.....

    I wonder what the vehicle insurance would cost?...maybe we could get US Bank to finance the rig....well, maybe not, its probl'y better as a "cash and carry" (sorry) operation.


    I just wanted to get my wife five blocks back to the car, from the arena after the concert at 11:00 pm with a little cover in this crime infested town.
    Last edited by jt59; 02-28-2011 at 06:21 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Very nice job...

    JT!

    Did they have metal detecors/wands for all entrants?
    Live Free or Die!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    in their use contracts with promoters of Key Arena (and others), require that they not allow firearms at their event....
    They're trying to use Cherry, which means they still haven't bothered to read the decision, specifically where it says that the only reason the preemption doesn't apply is because it's not a limitation that applies to the general population.
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