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Thread: New London City Council To Review Ordinance 14-11 ( Concealed Carry Ban)

  1. #1
    Regular Member romma's Avatar
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    New London City Council To Review Ordinance 14-11 ( Concealed Carry Ban)

    I have submitted the following email, and I spoke to the City Manager. This ordinance has been submitted for a review.

    To: drose@ci.new-london.ct.us, gmckissick@ci.new-london.ct.us


    To Subject (Thread Messages) Date Size

    Honorable City Manager of New London:
    Denise M. Rose



    Good Day to you Denise,

    My name is Scott D. Wilson Sr. I am a native of New London, and nearly a life long resident as well. I would also like to mention that I am a strong supporter and advocate for 2nd Amendment rights, and the President of the an organization entitled the "Connecticut Citizens Defense League". Our organization was founded and based on 2A principles. We are involved with the legislative process in Hartford, as well as introducing public enlightenment to people not aware of Firearms Rights and Laws here in Connecticut.

    As a New London resident, I wish to see crime the rate go down, and the people that live and work here feel safe in their comings and goings. I would also like to see our city thrive and prosper. At the same time, I would like law abiding citizens to be able to exercise their Rights as well. Currently it is very difficult to do so with the following City Ordinance on the books in New London:

    >>Sec. 14-11. Carrying concealed weapons, discharging firearms.
    No person shall carry any concealed weapon in said city nor shall any person discharge any species of firearms in any street of said city, without authority of the council.
    (Ord. of 3-5-45, 9)<<

    In Connecticut there are currently 158,000+ holders of Permits To Carry Firearms. And in order to move about the State and in certain towns in an inconspicuous manner, most choose to conceal their firearms. Therefore the only way to lawfully carry a firearm in New London is to do so openly (exposed). I assure you most people that lawfully carry a firearm do not wish to carry in this manner, although there are some residents in CT that do so on principle. Please keep in mind that openly carrying a firearm Is not illegal in this State.

    Therefore, I would like to make a suggestion to the language of this ordinance for the City council to consider as a change to allow citizens to conceal their firearm:

    >>Sec. 14-11. Carrying concealed weapons, discharging firearms.
    No person shall carry any concealed weapon in said city nor shall any person discharge any species of firearms in any street of said city, without authority of the council or without a valid State Permit to Carry Pistols or Revolvers .
    (Ord. of 3-5-45, 9)<<

    I respectfully request there to be careful consideration to my proposal for a language change, and I would be happy to reply to any questions regarding this proposal, or other firearms related matters that affect citizens of New London and Connecticut.

    Please also be aware that there is (Raised) Legislation drafted regarding Preemption Firearms Laws in Connecticut to protect law abiding citizens this session:

    H.B. No. 6377 (RAISED) PUBLIC SAFETY AND SECURITY. 'AN ACT CONCERNING FIREARMS PREEMPTION', to preempt municipal regulation of firearms. REF. PUBLIC SAFETY AND SECURITY.

    Thank you for taking time to work on this matter, and I will await your reply.

    Best Regards,

    Scott Wilson Sr.
    President
    CCDL, Inc.
    www.ccdl.us

    __________________________________________________ ________________________________________


    REPLY BACK:

    Good evening Mr.. Wilson:
    Thank you for your e-mail and telephone call concerning your request to change a city ordinance.

    I will refer your request to the Administration Committee for review.

    Generally the process for amending ordinances is as follows:
    The request is received by the Administration Committee who may refer it to the coordinator for the code of ordinances.
    The coordinator researches the matter and circulates the research and proposed change(s) to affected department directors.
    The coordinator develops a report and recommendation which is submitted to the Administration Committee.
    The Committee reviews the report and staff recommendations.
    The Committee may take one of several actions which include but are not limited to:
    Vote to recommend an amendment to the City Council
    Vote to refer the matter back to staff for more research, or
    Take no action

    This process usually takes three- to six-months.

    Please feel free to contact me should you have any questions.

    Denise Rose
    Last edited by romma; 06-01-2011 at 02:45 PM. Reason: Update

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    My name is Kyle and this is my 1st post on opencarry.org. I have been reading hundreds of threads on this website for the last month or 2. While I do not have my CT permit yet I have been thinking about it for a year. Finally got my fiance on board and we will take our class together and get the ball rolling.
    I would like to thank Scott for sending that letter to the city manager . I have thought about the New London ordinance for awhile. I work in New London, frequent the local businesses, and sail out of New London. With the October stabbing of Matt Chew and other violence I think it is important in New London to have the choice whether to conceal or open carry. The LEO's I have asked about the ordinance did not even know about it or thought maybe it was on the books but unenforceable. I was not aware of open carry 4 months ago when I asked them about it.
    It seems most of the OCers on here are not in NL county and would like to here any experiences about anybody OCing around here. I do remeember one member talking about OC at BJ's in waterford and about No Guns Allowed signs in Toys R US.
    I have already joined CCDL and hopefully can make it to a meeting at some point. I also hope to email Melissa Olson to oppose the bill proposed regarding "high capacity" magazines.
    I have learned a lot in the last month reading all thesse threads from around the country. I am excited to take my class and buy my first firearm. Peace and godspeed.

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    Thumbs up

    hobie16 welcome to movement.and CARRY ON SOON! CCDL MEMBER ALEX. EAST HARTFORD.
    Last edited by Alex.EastHartford.; 03-02-2011 at 01:58 AM.

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    Will be interesting to see how this progresses.

    I inquired about this to a member of the BFPE and was told that given preemption status, that it doesn't matter what the town does (as far as our permit goes). Don't know about if you are a resident of the town and what goes along with that (taxes, vehicle taxes and reporting to DMV, etc)....

    Would be interesting to see the response.

    My stepson is an Explorer in New Britain, most cops don't know the ordinance exists there either. They told him if they saw me open carry, then they will drop a breach of peace charge.

    Interesting...... I've been testing those waters - but haven't gotten caught yet!!!

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    First post as well,

    I live near and work in New London. I am in the city 6 days a week. I also exercise my rights guaranteed to me by the 2A. I will not walk around town after sunset (including going out to dinner on or around bank street), I will not stop in for a coffee at the bean and leaf, and I will not attend shows at the Garde Arts Center; even though I would like too. New London has improved a lot in years past, but it still is not 100% safe -- nowhere is. Until I am 100% safe, I will bear arms. If I cannot legally do so in New London, I wont spend my time or money there outside of work obligations.

    What is the consequence for violation of Sec. 14-11 anyway?
    Last edited by CCCT; 03-19-2011 at 09:56 AM.

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    sent an email

    I just sent an email to the police secretary for NL. She used to work at the company I work for and her retired NLPD father works with me. Here is the text of it minus my intro paragraph saying Hi.


    "I bought a house in Norwich last year with my wife-to-be and am now in the process of getting my pistol permit. I am following gun rights/ control bills in the state and had a question for you. New London and New Britain are the only towns in CT that have have a city ordinance that say it is illegal to conceal a weapon in the city. NL Sec. 14-11. The president of Connecticut Citizens Defense League is a lifelong resident of New London and he contacted the City Manager to ask that they change the language to "conceal a weapon without a valid state permit" She sent it to the Administration Committee who may refer it to the coordinator for the code of ordinances.
    I have asked an officer about this when he was down at the ferry and he was unsure about it. So I was wondering if you ever have a free second can you ask a senior officer about it and find out it is enforceable or on the books but not enforceable?
    I am interested to know, I would guess that with recent violence in New London you would be seeing more permit applications. The thing is, in CT, it is not illegal to openly carry a firearm with a permit. So if somebody wants to carry in NL then they must carry open because you can't carry concealed. People across CT are carrying their firearm openly but it hasn't really come up in New London County yet. I guess I would also like to know if the NLPD realizes that is is legal to openly carry.
    If this is too much to ask (I am sure you are a busy girl) let me know and I will come up and ask myself, but you work there and may be able to get better info. Thanks!!"

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    I received a quick response regarding this ordinance:

    "I have come across this question before, and I checked my answer with
    one of the Captains before I sent this out.

    Our ordinance reads: "No person shall carry any concealed weapon in said
    city nor shall any person discharge any species of firearms in any
    street of said city, without authority of the council." (Sec. 14-11,
    City of New London Code of Ordinances)

    Persons with permit under C.G.S. 29-28 can carry a concealed weapon in
    the city, as when there is a conflict between two sets of laws the
    higher authority prevails (state over city, federal over state, etc). A
    person with a State Permit to carry would not need council approval, as
    the permit is issued on the State level.

    However, it should be noted that the ordinance reads "concealed weapon,"
    not specifically firearms. The carrying of other weapons may be
    enforced as applicable by state statute.

    Firing of weapons, under the same ordinance, IS enforced.

    As for carrying openly: The permit to carry handguns allows people to
    carry them openly or concealed, but mature judgment, says the State
    Board of Firearm Permit Examiners, dictates that (1) "every effort
    should be made to ensure that no gun is exposed to view or carried in
    any manner that would tend to alarm people who see it... [and] (2) no
    handgun should be carried unless carrying the gun at the time and place
    involved is prudent and proper in the circumstances. " So, for the most
    part, carrying openly tends to be frowned upon by the State. You may
    wish to consult an attorney or the State's Attorney's Office regarding
    the open carry of a firearm.

    For now this is the best answer I can provide. If the ordinance needs
    changing or updating, that is a matter for the Council and committees,
    as the police department merely enforces laws and ordinances rather than
    actively reworking them.

    If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me."

  8. #8
    Regular Member romma's Avatar
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    hobie,

    is this an official email from the City with a valid authorized email?

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    This is an email between me an kerry. I was on nlpds website and she is who you contact to get your perrmit there. I happen to know her. I sent an email to her work nlpd email she is a police secretary. I asked her to ask a leo about it instead of me asking. As for whether its offcial or not I wouldn't say its law

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    Pro-tip: Cops are not law. A Judge and Jury of peers is.

    It is good to know however that what the cops got out of the law is that your permit entitles you to be allowed to carry (Yet not discharge) your firearm, so maybe I'll carry at work now: I'm not the kind of guy who open carries or gets searched by police ever so the problem even coming up would be a long shot. I would talk to an attorney though, the wording really does need to be made clear.

    I was pretty sure that the state statute meant that the cities and private property owners were allowed to make their own laws regarding this issue. I don't think that state statute necessarily trumps the city ordinance as she proposed.

    As for carrying openly: The permit to carry handguns allows people to
    carry them openly or concealed, but mature judgment, says the State
    Board of Firearm Permit Examiners, dictates that (1) "every effort
    should be made to ensure that no gun is exposed to view or carried in
    any manner that would tend to alarm people who see it... [and] (2) no
    handgun should be carried unless carrying the gun at the time and place
    involved is prudent and proper in the circumstances. " So, for the most
    part, carrying openly tends to be frowned upon by the State. You may
    wish to consult an attorney or the State's Attorney's Office regarding
    the open carry of a firearm.
    Wise words here.
    Last edited by CCCT; 03-18-2011 at 08:39 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobie16 View Post
    As for carrying openly: The permit to carry handguns allows people to
    carry them openly or concealed, but mature judgment, says the State
    Board of Firearm Permit Examiners, dictates that (1) "every effort
    should be made to ensure that no gun is exposed to view or carried in
    any manner that would tend to alarm people who see it... [and] (2) no
    handgun should be carried unless carrying the gun at the time and place
    involved is prudent and proper in the circumstances. " So, for the most
    part, carrying openly tends to be frowned upon by the State. You may
    wish to consult an attorney or the State's Attorney's Office regarding
    the open carry of a firearm.
    Good to see PDs still citing things that have been confirmed to be based purely on personal opinions and not on the law.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCT View Post
    so maybe I'll carry at work now
    Nothing said in this thread would protect you in the case of being discovered carrying at work if your employer prohibits carrying on premises.

    I would talk to an attorney though, the wording really does need to be made clear.
    What wording is unclear?

    I was pretty sure that the state statute meant that the cities and private property owners were allowed to make their own laws regarding this issue.
    Nothing in this thread has said that private property owners do not have the right to make their own rules. Private property owners have the right to not honor your RKBA on their property.

    I don't think that state statute necessarily trumps the city ordinance as she proposed.
    Based on what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Rules
    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    Wise words here.
    What is wise about someone's opinion on where and when it is prudent to carry and in what manner? This has no bearing on the law, nor does it make sense to carry only when and where you think 'you might need it' or other such nonsense.

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    Yes I'm new here. My quick post left much to be desired:

    Nothing said in this thread would protect you in the case of being discovered carrying at work if your employer prohibits carrying on premises.
    My employer has no policy against it, and know I have a permit and regularly carry. Small Business Employer, family like atmosphere it would be allowed. I didn't carry because during the course of my workday I often find myself downtown doing pickups and drop offs for the office.

    What wording is unclear?
    The ordinance does not give the exemption clause of state permit holders. Having it would clear up a lot of confusion.

    Based on what?
    http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/rpt/2011-R-0137.htm :

    Connecticut courts have not considered whether the legislature has demonstrated the intent to occupy areas of firearm regulation besides hunting and firearm sales. Given the extent of state firearm regulation in Connecticut, a court may decide that the legislature has manifested the intent to occupy the entire field of firearm regulation. But a court may also decide that, absent a direct conflict with state law, towns, under the municipal powers statutes, may enact firearm ordinances to protect the public health, safety, and welfare of their citizens.

    From this analysis it can go either way. It is a gray area. Because they do not have a pre-emption clause, it would appear as if local ordinance is not enforceable. However, do you want to be the one who tries that out?

    Why I think those are wise words:

    While there is a right to carry (guaranteed by the 2A), there is generally much more legal risk with carrying open in CT. Culture in CT does not dictate open carry. Law does not specify. Law men often decide initially, and I don't like confrontation with the law. Those who feel this way are wise to conceal. I am young, I'm still in college, I'm starting a family, and I don't need a court case for disturbing the peace or worse hanging over my head. The only time I leave my 1911 at home is when I go to NL. IWB, I run the risk of flashing someone and I'm not out looking for trouble. I often carry a pocket .380 to work with me however. I carry as a policy of being prepared, something I learned as a scout that has served me well so far; not just "when I might need it" as you say.

    I appreciate that some people (and many on this forum obviously) open carry in CT. This helps continue the debate and seems to be done with utmost civility. "A right not exercised is a right soon lost" comes to mind, those who OC are fully exercising their right. I guess what it boils down to is people who OC in CT are pushing the limits of what is "accepted" (Not a legal term) in CT. This may have consequences and the folks who do it are well aware of this. It is their right, and I support them in that. I am not someone who pushes boundaries, call me what you will but I'm not that kind of guy.
    Last edited by CCCT; 03-18-2011 at 02:10 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCT View Post
    The ordinance does not give the exemption clause of state permit holders. Having it would clear up a lot of confusion.
    Why bother? Just get rid of the ordinance to begin with. It is nothing but redundant.

    While there is a right to carry (guaranteed by the 2A), there is generally much more legal risk with carrying open in CT.
    Such as what? When has anyone in CT been convicted of any crime for open carry?

    Culture in CT does not dictate open carry.
    BS. I do it all the time, rarely an issue.

    Law does not specify.
    Of course it does. It says very clearly that you may carry a firearm if you have a permit and makes no regulation about in what manner you choose to carry. That is how laws work. If there is no law against it, it is legal.

    Law men often decide initially, and I don't like confrontation with the law. Those who feel this way are wise to conceal.
    By all means, don't OC then. Open carry is not for everyone. It does on a rare occasion get you more attention than you might desire, but it is even more rarely negative attention. Some people like to fade into the shadows and hide their beliefs, others don't mind people knowing they carry a firearm. Some even appreciate the deterrent effect it has on crime happening local to them.

    As for me, I have met and continue to meet lots of nice, open minded people while OCing. I learn a lot from those people, and I like to think they learn something from me.

    I am young, I'm still in college, I'm starting a family, and I don't need a court case for disturbing the peace or worse hanging over my head.
    Where in CT law do you see a provision for anyone to levy a charge of 'disturbing the peace' against someone who is openly carrying?

    IWB, I run the risk of flashing someone and I'm not out looking for trouble.
    I carry a Glock 23 and two spare mags with no cover garment. Does this mean I am out looking for trouble?

    I guess what it boils down to is people who OC in CT are pushing the limits of what is "accepted" (Not a legal term) in CT.
    Do you have a citation for this? I find the majority of the people I OC around either don't notice or don't care. Just the way I want it. Panic? Never. Alarmist folk who want to cause a problem because of their views? Twice in a year's time.

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    Why bother? Just get rid of the ordinance to begin with. It is nothing but redundant.
    Agreed, but if they feel the need to stress the issue at least make it cut and dry.

    Such as what? When has anyone in CT been convicted of any crime for open carry?
    Legal risk to me involves potential legal battles, which cost a lot of time and money if you are not a lawyer.

    BS. I do it all the time, rarely an issue. (Open Cary)
    Just because you do it doesn't mean it CT culture. In 20+ years here I only have seen someone OC once. If it was the culture, 60%+ of people would do it. Right now CT has a population of over 3.5 Million (http://www.webcitation.org/5mr524oZs). The best estimate I could find for Pistol Permits was around 145,000 (reference from this forum) . THIS MEANS: a little over 4% of CT residents have pistol permits. How many people who have permits carry, how many of those choose to open carry? OC is not the norm.

    As for me, I have met and continue to meet lots of nice, open minded people while OCing. I learn a lot from those people, and I like to think they learn something from me.
    I don't doubt that in the least. I just like to avoid the situations with those who are not like minded.

    Where in CT law do you see a provision for anyone to levy a charge of 'disturbing the peace' against someone who is openly carrying?
    My mistake, should be breach of peace. The wording of "or recklessly creating a risk thereof" in regard to "inconvenience, annoyance or alarm" is where you enter a danger zone. I'm sure you read the "creates a public and hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act which such person is not licensed or privileged to do" part as covered by your permit. I do too, but a jury of my peers may see otherwise. (http://www.cga.ct.gov/2005/pub/Chap952.htm) There is basis here for leverage of the charge, conviction with a good lawyer may be suspect as we have seen these cases thrown out.

    I carry a Glock 23 and two spare mags with no cover garment. Does this mean I am out looking for trouble?
    You can play dumb, you are aware you could have a conversation with the police if some sheep had a cow over it. You are OK with this, your choice, nothing wrong with that.

    There is a difference between OC and having a gun flash that is CC. People in New London are not as receptive to concealed weapons when say, I drop my Twinkies while in line at 7-eleven and bend over to pick them up. I witnessed it first hand a few years ago while getting gas on broad street. Clerk threatened to call cops when the gentleman, opened his jacket to grab a wallet and a shoulder holster became visible. This was one case and I have not ran a city wide survey, but due to the types of crimes that have happened lately around here -- people tend to play it safe.

    Do you have a citation for this? I find the majority of the people I OC around either don't notice or don't care. Just the way I want it. Panic? Never. Alarmist folk who want to cause a problem because of their views? Twice in a year's time.
    Two people "had a problem". That's two more than I'll have when I CC. You are within your right and I respect your opinion. I like to avoid conflict, whether justified by law or not.

    At this point we are getting off topic, no need to hijack this thread. Feel free to message me if you would like.
    Last edited by CCCT; 03-19-2011 at 09:53 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCT View Post
    Legal risk to me involves potential legal battles, which cost a lot of time and money if you are not a lawyer.
    When was the last time someone spent considerable time and money to get charges dropped for OCing?

    Just because you do it doesn't mean it CT culture. In 20+ years here I only have seen someone OC once. If it was the culture, 60%+ of people would do it. Right now CT has a population of over 3.5 Million (http://www.webcitation.org/5mr524oZs). The best estimate I could find for Pistol Permits was around 145,000 (reference from this forum) . THIS MEANS: a little over 4% of CT residents have pistol permits. How many people who have permits carry, how many of those choose to open carry? OC is not the norm.
    What difference does any of that make? OC does not need to be the norm. In states like AZ, VT and Alaska OC is not the norm either. I imagine carrying is not the norm either, but it might be closer than CT.

    You are mistaking popularity for acceptance.

    I don't doubt that in the least. I just like to avoid the situations with those who are not like minded.
    As I have said, don't OC then. That doesn't make the choice of the people who do OC any less valid.


    My mistake, should be breach of peace. The wording of "or recklessly creating a risk thereof" in regard to "inconvenience, annoyance or alarm" is where you enter a danger zone. I'm sure you read the "creates a public and hazardous or physically offensive condition by any act which such person is not licensed or privileged to do" part as covered by your permit. I do too, but a jury of my peers may see otherwise.
    I don't see how you can possibly interpret the breach of peace statute to include lawfully carried firearms. Even the police in this state that don't like OC are realizing this is not a valid charge to apply to OC. And state's attorneys don't seem to be willing to touch it either since the Goldberg case.

    You can play dumb, you are aware you could have a conversation with the police if some sheep had a cow over it. You are OK with this, your choice, nothing wrong with that.
    I could likewise have a conversation with the police over someone 'having a cow' over what it says on my t-shirt or for being the 'wrong color' in the 'wrong part of town'. Having been largely free of those issues while carrying all over the state, I am not all that worried about it. When you are doing nothing illegal, talking to the police shouldn't scare you. Then again, as I have learned, it is not a great idea to engage them in their requests for conversation anyway.

    There is a difference between OC and having a gun flash that is CC. People in New London are not as receptive to concealed weapons when say, I drop my Twinkies while in line at 7-eleven and bend over to pick them up. I witnessed it first hand a few years ago while getting gas on broad street. Clerk threatened to call cops when the gentleman, opened his jacket to grab a wallet and a shoulder holster became visible. This was one case and I have not ran a city wide survey, but due to the types of crimes that have happened lately around here -- people tend to play it safe.
    You are right. That is why I OC. Then I don't have to worry about that kind of thing.

    Two people "had a problem". That's two more than I'll have when I CC.
    Unless your shirt blows open or you 'drop your twinkies'.

    You are within your right and I respect your opinion. I like to avoid conflict, whether justified by law or not.
    But then why come to a forum devoted strictly to OC and comment on OC not being a good idea? I can't think of a better way to welcome conflict.

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    Thumbs up

    Man! This is Good stuff! you guys are bringing it. DON'T STOP! this is the kind of topic i like. CARRY ON! GENTLEMEN.
    Last edited by Alex.EastHartford.; 03-20-2011 at 12:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    But then why come to a forum devoted strictly to OC and comment on OC not being a good idea? I can't think of a better way to welcome conflict.
    I've not once been asked to leave a starbucks. But then again we don't have too many up my way .

    Good Idea for you, yeah sure. Me? Too risk adverse. That is all I'm saying.

    Conflict on an internet forum is different than in person. Conflicting arguments can and should be used to strengthen your argument (your doing a good (read: better) job!).

    Carry on, my friend.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCT View Post
    I've not once been asked to leave a starbucks.
    Nor are you likely to ever be asked to leave even if you print or OC now. The district manager has promised to inform the stores regarding the legalities of carry in CT since my experience.

    That is something that simply wouldn't have happened if we all concealed.

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    That and I only use the Drive-through....

  21. #21
    Regular Member Rich B's Avatar
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    Oct 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCCT View Post
    That and I only use the Drive-through....
    Then you should really have no fear of OCing.

  22. #22
    Regular Member romma's Avatar
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    Jun 2008
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    I just sent a request for a progress update. It has been three months. Granted, they stated it could take three to six months, but it is three months to the day.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
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    Good...keep us updated

  24. #24
    Regular Member
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    Jun 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich B View Post
    Good to see PDs still citing things that have been confirmed to be based purely on personal opinions and not on the law.
    Where did that come from? I thought that '...mature judgement...' crap was dead and buried.

    Hobie: listen to what Rich B. has to say. He's a fountain of accurate information.

    Carry on (no pun intended!)

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