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Thread: MSU Carry = Felony?

  1. #1
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    MSU Carry = Felony?

    I spoke with an MSU student who said that even possessing a gun in your car is a felony, I didn't think so, but thought I would ask.

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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    Nope, MSU Ordinance 18.01 goes with preemption,and even if you were to violate..its a very minor misdemeanor

    http://trustees.msu.edu/ordinances/o...ces_sec18.html
    01 Except as permitted by state law regulating firearms, no person shall possess any firearm or weapon anywhere upon property governed by the Board. Persons residing on property governed by the Board shall store any and all firearms and weapons with the Department of Police and Public Safety.


    A few of us have been on campus w/o issue...just make sure you DON'T have any non firearm type weapon(i.e. knife),as they are strictly enforced according to a few of my friends that attend the school.
    Last edited by lil_freak_66; 03-01-2011 at 10:34 PM.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    Thanks, that's more like what I thought.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    A Sargent with MSU Public Safety has told me they will enforce their Ordinance on anyone who is in a campus building. Including those carrying firearms. Those traversing campus on a public road would not be charged.

    It is a misdemeanor, not a felony. It may be a misdemeanor that would bar a CPL?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    I don't think U of M is as relaxed as MSU on the subject of guns. It isn't a felony though.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I spoke with an MSU student who said that even possessing a gun in your car is a felony, I didn't think so, but thought I would ask.
    Local municipalities like a college can not make felony ordinances only misdemeanors. They can arrest for state and federal felonies, but can't enact a felonious ordinance.
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    Regular Member lil_freak_66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    A Sargent with MSU Public Safety has told me they will enforce their Ordinance on anyone who is in a campus building. Including those carrying firearms. Those traversing campus on a public road would not be charged.

    It is a misdemeanor, not a felony. It may be a misdemeanor that would bar a CPL?

    they could charge all they want,but the way it is written i dont think it would hold up in court
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


  8. #8
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    A Sargent with MSU Public Safety has told me they will enforce their Ordinance on anyone who is in a campus building. Including those carrying firearms. Those traversing campus on a public road would not be charged.

    It is a misdemeanor, not a felony. It may be a misdemeanor that would bar a CPL?
    MCL 28.425o provides that a person with a valid
    CPL shall not carry a concealed pistol in a pistolfree zone.
    First offense is a state civil infraction.
    The following is a list of the premises (excluding
    parking lots) included in the statute:
    * School or school property, except a parent or
    legal guardian who is dropping off or picking up a
    child and the pistol is kept in the vehicle
    * Public or private day care center
    * Sports arena or stadium
    * A bar or tavern where sale and consumption of
    liquor by the glass is the primary source of
    income (does not apply to owner or employee of
    the business).
    * Any property or facility owned or operated by a
    church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other
    place of worship, unless authorized by the
    presiding official
    * An entertainment facility that has a seating
    capacity of 2,500 or more
    * A hospital
    *A dormitory or classroom of a community college,
    college, or university
    *A casino (R 432.1212, MCL 432.202)

    If they truly want to follow state law, then they would ONLY charge a CPL holder carrying concealed with a Civil Infraction and ONLY if they were cc in a dorm or classroom (as underlined above). My guess is that they would charge a CPL holder with a misdemeanor. I don't think one could be charged with both a misdemeanor and a Civil Infraction for the same event (Double Jeopardy??). However, I believe that they could not charge someone who is OC in these areas, as that is allowed by state law, but I could be wrong (IANAL).
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Valid point, but what if they were OC? What would they charge them with, just their ordinance?

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Valid point, but what if they were OC? What would they charge them with, just their ordinance?
    As I said in the last line if my post, I don't know. Maybe someone reading here knows.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  11. #11
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    As I said, MSU Public Safety is of the opinion preemption doesn't apply to them. (I won't state if I agree or disagree, that'd be interjecting my opinion. I'm just stating the facts here).

    I was told by Public Safety anyone (CPL or not) in a Campus Building would be brought up on a misdemeanor charge for violating their ordinance. You would be tried in the local District Court (54B District Court of Michigan).

    Want to test what would happen if you OC'd in an MSU building (with a CPL or otherwise)? ...it'd be an interesting court case.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    I really have no reason to go there. When someone told me that it could resuly in a felony charge it got my !, and my ?.

    The only educational facility that I'm personally interested in is Waterford Schools.

  13. #13
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    As I said, MSU Public Safety is of the opinion preemption doesn't apply to them. (I won't state if I agree or disagree, that'd be interjecting my opinion. I'm just stating the facts here).

    I was told by Public Safety anyone in a Campus Building would be brought up on a misdemeanor charge for violating their ordinance. You would be tried in the local District Court (54B District Court of Michigan).

    Want to test what would happen if you OC'd in an MSU building (with a CPL or otherwise)? ...it'd be an interesting court case.
    The preemption law really is not an issue... their ordinance states "Except as permitted by state law...". If that is true, then OC by a CPL holder/ non-holder would be allowed everywhere on campus, except if it falls under a prohibition listed in Michigan law. But, if the officer feels that part of the ordinance is just 'extra', then the Leos are writing their own laws. The ordinance clearly says a person is not in violation if he or she is following state law; why does this officer think the ordinance does not allow carry in a building?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Same reason you can't carry ad CADL, I can't carry in Waterford schools, and LilFreak cant get an LTP.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Same reason you can't carry ad CADL, I can't carry in Waterford schools, and LilFreak cant get an LTP.
    Apples and oranges:
    CADL- the reason I can't carry there is a TRO.
    Waterford Schools- can't carry there because schools are not covered under preemption
    MSU- can't carry there because a cop thinks we can't. It appears that his bosses, the MSU board, think otherwise.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Apples and oranges:
    CADL- the reason I can't carry there is a TRO.
    Waterford Schools- can't carry there because schools are not covered under preemption
    MSU- can't carry there because a cop thinks we can't. It appears that his bosses, the MSU board, think otherwise.
    How are public schools not under preemption?
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    How are public schools not under preemption?
    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.

    Sec. 5o.

    (1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    How are public schools not under preemption?
    because mcl 123.1101 defines "a local unit of government" and it does not include school districts.

    a) “Local unit of government” means a city, village, township, or county.
    http://legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28xw1...e=mcl-123-1101

    it is still lawful to cc in the parking areas of school property, or in your vehicle while picking up/dropping your child even if not technically in a 'parking area". It is also ok to oc with cpl anywhere you are allowed to be while at a school. If asked to leave by the correct person and you refuse you may face a trespassing charge. Are schools allowed to make rules regarding possession of firearms? It is difficult to say, but they do not appear to be covered by preemption under mcl 123.1102.
    Last edited by lapeer20m; 03-05-2011 at 11:34 AM.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

  19. #19
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapeer20m View Post
    because mcl 123.1101 defines "a local unit of government" and it does not include school districts.



    http://legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28xw1...e=mcl-123-1101

    it is still lawful to cc in the parking areas of school property, or in your vehicle while picking up/dropping your child even if not technically in a 'parking area". It is also ok to oc with cpl anywhere you are allowed to be while at a school. If asked to leave by the correct person and you refuse you may face a trespassing charge. Are schools allowed to make rules regarding possession of firearms? It is difficult to say, but they do not appear to be covered by preemption under mcl 123.1102.
    If that's the case, I don't see MOC winning their court case.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    If that's the case, I don't see MOC winning their court case.
    The Library is an Authority formed by 2 local governments, the City of Lansing and the County of Ingham. The Municipal Authority act says an Authority can only exercise powers that each local unit can exercise individually. Please read the numerous threads on this topic. This point gas been brought up many times. Please educate yourself before publicizing an opinion that's already been shot down.

    ETA: A school is NOT an Authority.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    What I meant, re. apples and apples, was that one person cannot do what others are doing freely, ie getting an LTP, carrying at school, and so on.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    The Library is an Authority formed by 2 local governments, the City of Lansing and the County of Ingham. The Municipal Authority act says an Authority can only exercise powers that each local unit can exercise individually. Please read the numerous threads on this topic. This point gas been brought up many times. Please educate yourself before publicizing an opinion that's already been shot down.

    ETA: A school is NOT an Authority.
    Sorry that I don't read every single thing posted on this forum just trying to get clarification as to why.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  23. #23
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Sorry that I don't read every single thing posted on this forum just trying to get clarification as to why.
    Its not the point that you "don't read every single thing posted on this forum". The point is that you made a very directed statement, and presented it as an intellectual opinion (intellectual opinion is one formed from insight to a particular subject), and not as a question. Or an open statement looking for clarification. That is why you got jumped on.

    Some on this site (myself included quite often) get tired of people making such statements without first knowing the facts. If you don't know the facts you have a few different options, either do the research, ask questions, or make open ended statements inquiring about the topic. If you decide to just make a direct statement obviously not knowing the facts, then yeah you have a good chance to get jumped on.

    But you will learn young grass hopper, I know at a certain age some (not all) people think they know everything without actually knowing much of anything. I am not saying this about you, you obviously do not fall into this category or else you would not be here. This site is for learning, and gaining knowledge. But being in the age group your in does put you at a disadvantage of human nature, that you must fight against. Stay strong, and make sure to keep away from any cocky attitude that most your age have.

    Stick around, learn the edicate, and you will learn more on firearm laws, as well as the rest of the Constitution then you would ever think possible. Good luck!
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 03-05-2011 at 08:07 PM.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    ^^^^^ What eastmeyers said ^^^^^
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  25. #25
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    ^^^^^ What eastmeyers said ^^^^^
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 03-05-2011 at 11:45 PM.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

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