Whatcom County Courthouse reversing decision to not require ID

Grapeshot · Mar 3, 2011

Lovenox said:
Well how many times have our memebers been required to show our Ids to LEO for no good reason?

I would think not ever! Consensually responding is not a requirement - it is a choice, although I suggest a poor one.

What cite do you have for a LEO being able to legally demand paper identification from a person not breaking any laws, for no good reason?
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cr...nd_ide_sta-stop-identify-statutes-states-quot

The U.S. Supreme Court held, in Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court, 542 U.S. 177 (2004), that “stop and identify” statutes are valid, but only to the limit of verbally providing the information and with RAS in accordance with Terry v. Ohio.
http://knol.google.com/k/tom-williams/stop-and-identify-laws/68gu50dopcpx/2#

Lovenox · Mar 3, 2011

GS, I am siding with YOU. I think you misterpeted.

Grapeshot · Mar 3, 2011

Lovenox said:
GS, I am siding with YOU. I think you misterpeted.

Surely did - please accept my apology.

I am somewhat sensitized when it comes to "producing paper" - one of our own in Virginia was charged with obstruction of justice for not producing driving license AND CHP while OCing on foot on public property. He'll eventually win, but it is a major PITA meanwhile 'til the worm turns.

Luke · Mar 3, 2011

amlevin said:
No, the law does not require ID but it also doesn't say that it can't be asked for.

I would like to clarify. Are you stating that it's ok for "them"(county government in this case), to require citizens to provide identifying documents when the law does not require it?

44Brent · Mar 3, 2011

sudden valley gunner said:
Previously worked a method and agreement with the screeners, not to show ID, when checking weapon.

Then a few months ago, he said he was concerned about me keeping the key, so we came to another agreement that he would write down first name and number and discard the paper when I return the key.

Let me know the next time you turn in a firearm without identifying yourself. I'll follow right on in after you, and get a free pistol by pretending to be you.

Luke · Mar 3, 2011

44Brent said:
Let me know the next time you turn in a firearm without identifying yourself. I'll follow right on in after you, and get a free pistol by pretending to be you.

How?

sudden valley gunner · Mar 3, 2011

44Brent said:
Let me know the next time you turn in a firearm without identifying yourself. I'll follow right on in after you, and get a free pistol by pretending to be you.

How are you going to get my pistol when I am in position of the key?

And yes they are not requesting ID they are demanding it, and demanding I leave my ID with them until I return.

The ID has nothing to do with the firearm in this case I personally use the key they hand me to lock it up and to retrieve no one handles the firearm but me. Even if it did I would still fight against ID requirements.

Again for you just show ID guys, Grapeshot and the majority on here get it. I am not going to court voluntarily this is not a volunteer action on my part in checking in my weapon, I will be arrested for not making a court date.

The reason I am going to court is to fight a suspension of my license, so it is in reality a useless piece of paper I am not required to have on me especially when I am not driving. I actually could not cash a check because the bank didn't consider it a valid ID since the state suspended it. My stance on this doesn't change even when my license isn't suspended, ask the city of Bellingham I fought them and forced them to follow the law.

To reiterate I value my 4th amendment rights very much, it is not up for negotiation from my perspective.

PS....you are not required to show ID to TSA either, a Washington man just won a case against that.

gogodawgs · Mar 3, 2011

44Brent said:
Let me know the next time you turn in a firearm without identifying yourself. I'll follow right on in after you, and get a free pistol by pretending to be you.

How? So you would steal a firearm?

Deleted_User · Mar 3, 2011

44Brent said:
Let me know the next time you turn in a firearm without identifying yourself. I'll follow right on in after you, and get a free pistol by pretending to be you.

View attachment 5348

Luke · Mar 3, 2011

sudden valley gunner said:
How are you going to get my pistol when I am in position of the key?

And yes they are not requesting ID they are demanding it, and demanding I leave my ID with them until I return.

The ID has nothing to do with the firearm in this case I personally use the key they hand me to lock it up and to retrieve no one handles the firearm but me. Even if it did I would still fight against ID requirements.

Again for you just show ID guys, Grapeshot and the majority on here get it. I am not going to court voluntarily this is not a volunteer action on my part in checking in my weapon, I will be arrested for not making a court date.

The reason I am going to court is to fight a suspension of my license, so it is in reality a useless piece of paper I am not required to have on me especially when I am not driving. I actually could not cash a check because the bank didn't consider it a valid ID since the state suspended it. My stance on this doesn't change even when my license isn't suspended, ask the city of Bellingham I fought them and forced them to follow the law.

To reiterate I value my 4th amendment rights very much, it is not up for negotiation from my perspective. Them

PS....you are not required to show ID to TSA either, a Washington man just won a case against that.

I didn't realize they were asking you to leave the id with them. Aren't there services inside the courthouse that require id?

sudden valley gunner · Mar 3, 2011

Luke said:
I didn't realize they were asking you to leave the id with them. Aren't there services inside the courthouse that require id?

Not that I know of, unless you are required to prove to the court you have had your license at the time of a driving without a license ticket.

I am a huge fan of the 4th amendment, and go about my life without my 'papers'. It is one reason open carry is a big attraction to me, no law requires me to carry ID or my CPL. (except in specific situations)

joeroket · Mar 3, 2011

Luke said:
I would like to clarify. Are you stating that it's ok for "them"(county government in this case), to require citizens to provide identifying documents when the law does not require it?

I gathered that he is saying it is not OK for them to require ID but there certainly is no statute prohibiting them from requesting it. If you produce upon a request then that is your business and you cannot come back and complain about a 4th violation. In SVG's case they are demanding it which certainly is a 4th violation as there is nothing that authorizes them to demand, but they certainly can ask if they please to.

sudden valley gunner · Mar 3, 2011

joeroket said:
I gathered that he is saying it is not OK for them to require ID but there certainly is no statute prohibiting them from requesting it. If you produce upon a request then that is your business and you cannot come back and complain about a 4th violation. In SVG's case they are demanding it which certainly is a 4th violation as there is nothing that authorizes them to demand, but they certainly can ask if they please to.

Yep I have no problem with anybody asking. A stranger off the street can ask me the same thing.

sharkey · Mar 3, 2011

sudden valley gunner said:
PS....you are not required to show ID to TSA either, a Washington man just won a case against that.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/01/25/passenger_acquitted/

He was acquitted of the charges. That doesn't mean someone else won't be found guilty in the same situation. A jury verdict does not make precedence unfortunately. I wish juries were required to be told of jury nullification but generally they are not allowed to be told it is an option. :banghead:

I see you were part of the discussion on it here.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...against-man-refusing-to-show-ID-at-US-airport

I think eye is the one who first stated it was an acquittal.

Actually even the TSA website says you don't have to show ID. OK, it actually says you are required but if you "do not"....

I like it when a document contradicts itself.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/acceptable_documents.shtm

Effective June 21, 2008, adult passengers (18 and over) are required to show a U.S. federal or state-issued photo ID in order to be allowed to go through the checkpoint and onto their flight.

Passengers who do not or cannot present an acceptable ID will have to provide information to the Transportation Security Officer performing Travel Document Checking duties in order to verify their identity. Passengers who are cleared through this process may be subject to additional screening. Passengers whose identity cannot be verified by TSA may not be allowed to enter the screening checkpoint or onto an airplane.

sudden valley gunner · Mar 4, 2011

Yea win might not have been the best choice of words I used. Especially when he is out so much money out of his own pocket.

END_THE_FED · Mar 4, 2011

amlevin said:
..........the ID requirement is most likely to make sure it is returned to the proper person.........

Would anyone here like to have their handgun returned to just anyone who "had the key" or claim check. What if you dropped it when getting change, etc. Without an ID requirement then the security of the firearm is flawed....

Good point. But in the example of one losing the claim ticket then I don't think the court would be responsible, because the loss wasnt due to the courts negligence.

That problem can be resolved by simply using a "code number" or "code phrase".

When someone attempts to check a weapon the clerk/guard can simply ask the person to provide a number or phrase that must be repeated before the firearm is returned.

The same can be done with a "secret question".

END_THE_FED · Mar 4, 2011

aadvark said:
Agreed..., there Exists NO Law that says that They 'May' Ask for Identification, but NO Law that says that They can not Ask for it either.

However, notwithstanding that Analysis, The Law DOES say that The Lock Boxes 'SHALL' be provided, so..., even Absent an Identification Card or Document of some sort, The Boxes MUST be provided to ALL who Lawfully Declare such Firearms or Weapons BEFORE entering such Restricted Areas of such Building.

Either way..., Washington State is NOT a Stop and Identify State, and thus, Asking for ANY Identification Document Violates The Forth Amendment Absent a Warrant.

A License to Carry a Concealed Handgun is ONLY needed in Washington State to either: 1. Carry a Concealed Pistol, OR 2. Carry a Pistol in a Motor Vehicle.

or 3. To go into a convention center, stadium etc. if the city chooses to require it.

Municipalities can place carry restrictions on those places if the person does not have a CPL

Also, This is probably what you meant but for the sake of clarity you do not need a CPL to carry in a vehicle, only to carry loaded in a vehicle.

Grapeshot · Mar 4, 2011

44Brent said:
Let me know the next time you turn in a firearm without identifying yourself. I'll follow right on in after you, and get a free pistol by pretending to be you.

Do you have a duplicate key to the lock box? Are you willing to commit a felony?

If leaving the gun not in a lock box, give your name. When picking it up, show proof of who you are to coincide with name give. That is NOT the same as being required to provide ID when gun is left. That and no record of same may be retained.

No free pistol for you today.

Next problem.

MSG Laigaie · Mar 4, 2011

Originally Posted by aadvark
Agreed..., there Exists NO Law that says that They 'May' Ask for Identification, but NO Law that says that They can not Ask for it either.

Please help me understand this part. Does not 'State preemption' mean no one can 'add too' the Law? If so, there IS a law that says They can not ask for it.

By the by SVG, if you would like company (armed, of course) the next visit you make to court, call me.

Grapeshot · Mar 4, 2011

MSG Laigaie said:
Please help me understand this part. Does not 'State preemption' mean no one can 'add too' the Law? If so, there IS a law that says They can not ask for it.

Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.290

Whatcom County Courthouse reversing decision to not require ID

Legendary Warrior

Regular Member

Legendary Warrior

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Campaign Veteran

Guest

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

Legendary Warrior

Campaign Veteran

Legendary Warrior