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Muslim shop owner has no problem with my open carry

gogodawgs

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As he usually does gogodawgs is making a very good point here, and I'm going to steal it View attachment 5568

The "failures" of faith in general, and organized religion, that are so often brought up by these agnostics and atheists, are not failures of these things themselves but of individuals who are taken to the same kind of "spiritual laziness" that gogo just mentioned. Whatever their professed religious ideas (and atheism is a religion in this sense), they have formulated them not through personal reflection and examination of the world around them, but because it's what their family has always done, it's what everyone else does, or in simple rebellion to these two, none of which are enlightened, well thought out ways to formulate one's spiritual identity. That make sense?

Such people, who are probably the majority, are also the easiest ones for crafty "spiritual leaders" (bin laden, Madelin Murray o'Hare, crusader kings, & such) to subvert and drive into actions that are contrary to their professed religious ideals.

Now the thing about deism that doesn't make sense to me, is that a Creator who would crate such an amazing universe, and then top it off with an incredible creature like Man, would desire no interaction with His creation and creations...

Thanks.

As to your last not-a-question question...

You espouse arrogance with this question. Not personal arrogance but a selfish arrogance that is man. Are we the only creation? Who said there is no interaction, only religions say so....
 

1911er

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Good point! I would say that I refuse to believe in God without something resembling proof (or concrete evidence), and that I incline towards disbelief in the absence of such (the same way one may be disinclined towards belief in, say, leprechauns). However, I do not, as an article of faith, assert categorically that God doesn't exist. Such an entity may well be. As with leprechauns, I would accept proof were it to become available. In the meantime...



Yes, I am familiar with the kind of person to whom you refer. I cannot speak for others, of course. I suspect that much of what you see is a manifestation of feelings of disgust and resentment towards the actions, general and specific, of the agents and followers of organized religion.




In my own case, what animosity I hold is exclusively for the politicization of faith. I view individual faith as nothing more than a curiosity, one of what are undoubtedly many disagreements of fact between myself and the other. It may be, however, that my animosity towards such organization comes across, in some cases, to some, as animosity towards individual faith itself, which it is not.




Fair enough. It's reasonable to admit that such a high standard is difficult to maintain with perfection. Not especiallly hypocritical if you accept the same from others, also.



I hope so. In my view, the absolute do-not-cross line of morality is dictated by the Principle of Non-aggression. I certainly hope that I have not aggressed in my adulthood. If I have done so, it is assuredly by mistake.

While I also consider it good karma to be good and charitable towards others, and to do as little harm as possible (where aggression is absent), I would punish no one, including myself, for failure in this regard. It is not mandatory, merely best practice. I hope my own failures are minor and irregular, but I suppose I do not consider them hypocrisy since I consider them allowable.



Oh, certainly not. I hope I didn't come across as suggesting otherwise!

Personally, as a member of the "faithless", I am inclined to credit such moral consistency to an internal drive found in a certain personality, regardless of faith or lack thereof, which is merely attributed to faith (or lack thereof) by those with a self-confirming interest in seeing it so.



This may be true. In my own case, I make no claims of asceticism, or guruhood, or anything of the sort. I would say that my ability to maintain internal consistency of morality is possible simple due to having a simple and clear standard, which is easy in compliance and inexcusable in failure.




I do not disagree.



I understand this perspective. In my view, humanity is evidently imperfect, incredible though we may be. It is therefore not unreasonable to credit it to the imperfect but continually-optimizing process of evolution.



That's not especially hypocritical.

I myself am an advocate of the teachings of Jesus (minus the hocus-pocus attributed to him by later admirers). I have a copy of the Jefferson Bible readily at hand. I simply find it to be a moral framework not requiring a belief in a deity, although that was a most convenient vehicle for dissemination of the framework the time and place of its inception.

I laddy be cerful how you be talkin about the wee people
 

Metalhead47

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Thanks.

As to your last not-a-question question...

You espouse arrogance with this question. Not personal arrogance but a selfish arrogance that is man. Are we the only creation? Who said there is no interaction, only religions say so....

I believe I said CreationS in the plural ;) And the lack of interaction (intervention) was from your own quote...

I'm assuming you meant, "religions say there is no interaction with the Creator outside of their narrow view. If that statement is correct, I think you'll find quite a bit of disagreement on that subject, not only amongst religionS but within any given religion its self.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Thanks, as I respect atheists/agnostics who have taken time to formulate their opinions.

Yea I know many who claim to be agnostic, but really just shrug off any thinking about the universe or our part in it.

I have gave great thought to it and the definition of agnostic fits me best.

I find errors in scientific dogma and religious dogma.

Looks like a 12 year old boy is on track to redo much scientific thinking maybe even disprove the big bang theory.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/03/26/12-year-old-genius-expands-einsteins-theory-of-relativity/

An interesting theory I heard of why our universe and us are here is that it is simply easier than there being nothing.......and to me that actually is the most logical explanation so far.
 

Tawnos

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And just when I thought the thread couldn't get any better after Deros dropped the sharia BS so early on. Deros, the only people I see lobbying for anything similar to Sharia law is the Christians of this country, trying to pass laws preventing gay marriage, keeping religious texts such as the 10 commandments outside of courtrooms, preventing women the right to choose their own medical options, limiting access to birth control, opposing the right of an adult to ingest intoxicants in the privacy of their own home, et cetera. What was it that the character of Jesus said about specks and planks?

Metalhead47, you have a lot of reading to do before you can make claims about atheism, agnosticism, etc. You quote wikipedia, yet only focus on the parts that specifically agree with your own ideas, ignoring evidence to the contrary. Confirmation bias in action. Stating that there are no "true atheists" is simply a form of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, and it indicates that you don't know the difference between "the" and "gno" as the roots they represent. A "theist" is one who believes in a god or gods, while an atheist is the none state of that - one who does not believe in any god or gods. The meaning you ascribe to "atheist" is better suited to "antitheist", which is one who actively opposes any theism. Now, certainly, I am antitheistic towards certain types of theistic, but I am merely atheistic towards many others, and overall I'm agnostic to the concept of god or gods. What this means, practically, is that I acknowledge you could define god in such a way that I could not find logical flaw or disproof inherent in the presented concept, but such a being would for all intents and purposes have no impact on my life, so belief or non-belief would not matter.

The problem of theodicy is not so easily brushed aside, despite your claim that it's "the old", as if it were somehow answered since first posited and now. You claim that preventing anything bad from happening would eliminate free will, but you fail to address why such a potential would ever exist if a perfect creator of infinite power (a presumption I'm making on your belief, feel free to correct it as you wish) designed and shaped the universe. Moreover, you fail to make the case that preventing needless suffering eliminates free will. In fact, I'd claim that it allows for freer will, as it provides the framework for mankind to engage in ventures that would otherwise be too risky due to fear of pain or death.

When you state
Yes, I do think one lives a deprived existence who must have everything empirically proven beyond a doubt to them. I do not think such people are (necessarily) damned in the afterlife, but they certainly are in this one, in a sense. To refuse to step out of that box one has created for one's self, to deny the search, to maintain such a rigid psyche that one is unable to admit even the possibility of something greater than one's self, is to deny a crucial part of one's self, and to close off a piece of humanity that is as critical to living as breathing or eating. Living, not merely existing. It's like constantly being at "red alert" in terms of situational awareness. If you don't relax that guard at some point, you will do damage to your mental state. One who maintains a similar state of psychological "awareness," who cannot, at some point, in some way, relax and just believe, is doing damage to their psyche and spirit.
I cannot help but be reminded of the girl's claim in panel 1:
beauty.png


I have not yet seen you post evidence of a god. You've posted things you find difficult to comprehend, perhaps, but all those things: love, irrational belief, miraculous healings, survival against impossible odds, etc... all of them are naturalistic to my worldview. Love is the response you have to a series of chemical pathways being excited, that leads to a formed neurological chain of learned actions. Irrational beliefs are those held despite rigorous examination showing they are nothing more than statistics. Miraculous healings and survival against improbable odds are merely manifestations of those statistics in a physical sense. None are divine in nature.
 

marshaul

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Metalhead47, you have a lot of reading to do before you can make claims about atheism, agnosticism, etc. You quote wikipedia, yet only focus on the parts that specifically agree with your own ideas, ignoring evidence to the contrary. Confirmation bias in action. Stating that there are no "true atheists" is simply a form of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, and it indicates that you don't know the difference between "the" and "gno" as the roots they represent. A "theist" is one who believes in a god or gods, while an atheist is the none state of that - one who does not believe in any god or gods. The meaning you ascribe to "atheist" is better suited to "antitheist", which is one who actively opposes any theism. Now, certainly, I am antitheistic towards certain types of theistic, but I am merely atheistic towards many others, and overall I'm agnostic to the concept of god or gods. What this means, practically, is that I acknowledge you could define god in such a way that I could not find logical flaw or disproof inherent in the presented concept, but such a being would for all intents and purposes have no impact on my life, so belief or non-belief would not matter.

Precisely. Very well said, if I might add. I frequently refer to myself as an atheist-agnostic. I believe I've done so in this thread.
 

Metalhead47

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... keeping religious texts such as the 10 commandments outside of courtrooms...

As usual, don't have time for a long reply, but I don't think you completely read what I've posted either. But I do have to hit back at this. The First Amendment protects, not prohibits, religious expression, specifically in public (ie government) places like courthouses. The 10 Commandments, Koran, Bhagavad Gita, whatever the local community wants to put in there as a religious expression that is not a "law reflecting the establishment of religion."

And yes I still have alot of reading to do. Don't you? Don't think I'll ever read or learn everything I'd like to. However there's nothing out there that's going to convince me that the past and present experiences of my heart and psyche are mere chemical reactions, or that human life has no more purpose than that of an ant.
 
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Tawnos

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As usual, don't have time for a long reply, but I don't think you completely read what I've posted either. But I do have to hit back at this. The First Amendment protects, not prohibits, religious expression, specifically in public (ie government) places like courthouses. The 10 Commandments, Koran, Bhagavad Gita, whatever the local community wants to put in there as a religious expression that is not a "law reflecting the establishment of religion."
The law acts to protect and prohibit, depending on context. A courtroom that has something such as the 10 commandments posted may not do so without allowing all other comers to post their own "religious" text of choice. Thus, it prohibits any form of unilateral religious expressionism by a government entity, which protects other systems of belief or nonbelief from having a different religion established in a favored position. As I said, though, Christians are the ones who try to shut down other forms of expression. In fact, it seems that rather than allow a competing message, Christians have voted to shut down all messages from being displayed. These are only a couple of many examples where that has happened time and again, and it reinforces what I said earlier: the only ones seeking anything similar to Sharia law in this country are Christians. It reminds me of a comic (that I wish I could find right now). Two people are talking, and the dialog goes something like this: "I can't believe how they've taken god out of this country" "yep" "promoting the homosexual agenda" "right on" "eliminating public prayer" "so wrong" "not following the holy laws" "preach it" "yeah, it's time we bring Allah back to the head of our country" "yea...wait, what?"

And yes I still have alot of reading to do. Don't you? Don't think I'll ever read or learn everything I'd like to. However there's nothing out there that's going to convince me that the past and present experiences of my heart and psyche are mere chemical reactions, or that human life has no more purpose than that of an ant.
That's fine, you and the alot can remain unconvinced, even when evidence shows these feelings not not only be chemical, but to be malleable. For example, your moral code can be altered using magnets, and love is a chemical reaction. It's not scary to know the truth, and it's infinitely more interesting to me to be able to understand and study in depth how such a system works, than to believe stories that predate any knowledge of neuroscience, biology, physics, or any of the other sciences.
 

Metalhead47

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You're painting all Christians with a might broad brush there my friend. Now weren't you just condemning others for exactly the same thing towards Muslims earlier in this threAd?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Tawnos

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You're painting all Christians with a might broad brush there my friend. Now weren't you just condemning others for exactly the same thing towards Muslims earlier in this threAd?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Am I painting all Christians? I thought I said that I only see Christians acting a certain way in governmental affairs of this country. I never said that all Christians act this way (in fact, many are apolitical or even oppose such strides). However, I will say Christians have carved themselves a special status in this country from the 50s revivalism through the 90s that is finally being reversed towards the secular basis of our government. In fighting against loss of that special status, many Christians are engaging in acts that they would turn around and call wrong should said acts come from any other group.

Now, are you ceding the points on your misunderstanding of theism vs atheism vs antitheism and gnosticism vs agnosticism vs antignosticism, as well as those related to what the first amendment guarantees, the evidence-based approach towards emotion as a complex chemical reaction, the nature of so-called "miracles" as applied statistics, and the problem of theodicy? Or can I expect a more fully formed answer to these propositions and problems than "nothing will convince me" of the truth. That's the opposite of taking an open-minded, skeptical approach to the world. If the evidence leads me somewhere uncomfortable, I change my opinion... In fact, here's a handy guide:

600px-Science-vs-religion.jpg
 

gsx1138

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Yea I know many who claim to be agnostic, but really just shrug off any thinking about the universe or our part in it.

I have gave great thought to it and the definition of agnostic fits me best.

I find errors in scientific dogma and religious dogma.

Looks like a 12 year old boy is on track to redo much scientific thinking maybe even disprove the big bang theory.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/03/26/12-year-old-genius-expands-einsteins-theory-of-relativity/

An interesting theory I heard of why our universe and us are here is that it is simply easier than there being nothing.......and to me that actually is the most logical explanation so far.

There are several alternate theories to the big bang (which is a bad description because it wasn't an actual bang). But so far theoretical physicists are stuck with our current evidence. The evidence for the big bang is physical and real and measurable but how it happened is not. That is what is up for debate. I find it all very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-4PCKRwmZ0&feature=player_embedded#at=23

I should say I also have a special place in my heart for Deists because I was one for awhile. And since it's more likely that Thomas Jefferson was Deist and not Atheist I have to like anyone who's like my hero. :)
 
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marshaul

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As usual, don't have time for a long reply, but I don't think you completely read what I've posted either. But I do have to hit back at this. The First Amendment protects, not prohibits, religious expression, specifically in public (ie government) places like courthouses. The 10 Commandments, Koran, Bhagavad Gita, whatever the local community wants to put in there as a religious expression that is not a "law reflecting the establishment of religion."

And yes I still have alot of reading to do. Don't you? Don't think I'll ever read or learn everything I'd like to. However there's nothing out there that's going to convince me that the past and present experiences of my heart and psyche are mere chemical reactions, or that human life has no more purpose than that of an ant.

The 10 commandments are, by their own claim, "laws". Placing them outside courtrooms, which are also devoted to law, creates all kinds of wrong messages.

And there is no community in the US which could decide to post the 10 commandments without some members of that community being misrepresented.
 

Metalhead47

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Am I painting all Christians?

Christians are the ones...
Christians have voted...
...the only ones seeking anything similar to Sharia law in this country are Christians


Notice the lack of modifiers? No "most," no "some," no "many," etc. Looks like painting to me. :D

See, now this is why I was reluctant to get into this discussion in "public" in the first place. I was having a nice two-way conversation with marshaul until you came along with your superior attitude, cutesy cartoons, and borderline bigotry towards Christians (I have avoided espousing any particular religion for the purposes of this discussion, until now). Y'know, it's ironic. Change some of the words around and you argue just like some of the Evangelicals I've traded words with from time to time.

So no, just based on your attitude I cede nothing at this point.icon_mrgreen.gif From my perspective, the existence of a Supreme Being (God, Supreme Architect, Creator, whatever you wish to call it) is as blindingly obvious and undeniable as the sun in the sky. Now, a crafty debating might get me to change my thinking on the nature of that sun, but to convince me that it does not exist when it's just plainly THERE is going to take an L of alot more "evidence" than you have presented here. You'd have to overrule the evidence of my own spiritual and mental experiences on the matter, which you'll have a very difficult time in doing, since you're not me and have not experienced as I have. And just for the record, nowhere did I deny that such things do not involve chemical reactions, they are not mere reactions, but are merely the vehicle for something Greater.

See, the thing here is you and I are actually the same. We are both convinced of the superiority of our own ideas, and damn stubborn on the matter. I assure you I have already gone through my own "open-minded, skeptical approach" to the evidence at hand, and being that I have come to exactly the opposite conclusion on the matter as you, should serve to demonstrate exactly how inconclusive and ambiguous your "evidence" really is.
 

Metalhead47

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The 10 commandments are, by their own claim, "laws". Placing them outside courtrooms, which are also devoted to law, creates all kinds of wrong messages.

And there is no community in the US which could decide to post the 10 commandments without some members of that community being misrepresented.

Yes, they are laws, that along with other historical codes are a part of the basis of our legal system.

America was, and still is, a majority Christian nation. It only stands to reason that the majority of such public expressions will also be Christian. Freedom of expression is not based on all groups being equally represented. If that "misrepresented" group wishes to make their own public expression, they have that right too.

And which set of 10 commandments? There are two different sets of 10 commandments in the Bible. The very first commandment is the very opposite of what America stands for.

Check your Scripture. The Ten Commandments may appear twice in the Old Testament, but the substance of the text is identical.
 

marshaul

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Yes, they are laws, that along with other historical codes are a part of the basis of our legal system.

That's a tad disingenuous.

Only three of the ten commandments have analogs in the common law, or in the laws of most states:

You shall not murder.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness.

The first two exist in nearly every society (all of them if you're willing to define "murder" loosely enough). The third is an obvious necessity for any court system.

The totality hardly seems to confirm the notion that the ten commandments are the "basis of our legal system".

Also, if you trace the common law back far enough, you'll see that it originates in pagan Anglo-Saxon law.
 

Tawnos

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Check your Scripture. The Ten Commandments may appear twice in the Old Testament, but the substance of the text is identical.
Different religious groups have different 10 commandments. Even Muslims have 10 commandments:
wikipedia said:
1. "There is no other god beside Allah." (Qur'an 47:19)
2. "My Lord, make this a peaceful land, and protect me and my children from worshiping idols." (Qur'an 14:35)
3. "And make not Allah's (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth all things." (Qur'an 2:224) This quranic verse is not entirely analogous to the Old Testament's "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God..." Verse 2:224 is explained by the Prophet Muhammad as: "If anyone takes a solemn oath [that he would do or refrain from doing such-and such a thing], and thereupon realizes that something else would be a more righteous course, then let him do that which is more righteous, and let him break his oath and then atone for it" (Bukhari and Muslim; and other variants of the same Tradition in other compilations).
4. "O you who believe, when the Congregational Prayer (Salat Al-Jumu`ah) is announced on Friday, you shall hasten to the commemoration of GOD, and drop all business." (Qur'an 62:9) According to the teachings of Islam, the Sabbath was abrogated by the revelation for Muhammed. Furthermore, the Sabbath was only decreed for the Jews. (Qur'an 16:124) God, however, ordered Muslims to make every effort to drop all business to attend the congregational (Friday) prayer. Believers are permitted to go about their affairs during the rest of the day.
5. "....and your parents shall be honoured. As long as one or both of them live, you shall never (even) say to them, "Uff" (the slightest gesture of annoyance), nor shall you shout at them; you shall treat them amicably." (Qur'an 17:23)
6. "....anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people." (Qur'an 5:32)
7. "You shall not commit adultery; it is a gross sin, and an evil behaviour." (Qur'an 17:32)
8. "They shall not steal." (Al-Mumtahanah 60: 12) and "The thief, male or female, you shall cut off their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from God. God is Almighty, Most Wise." (Qur'an 5:38)
9. "Do not withhold any testimony by concealing what you had witnessed. Anyone who withholds a testimony is sinful at heart." (Qur'an 2:283)
10. "And do not covet what we bestowed upon any other people. Such are temporary ornaments of this life, whereby we put them to the test. What your Lord provides for you is far better, and everlasting." (Qur'an 20:131)

I think gsx was confusing the repetition of the 10 commandments with the repetition of the creation myth, where the order is changed around.
 

Metalhead47

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That's a tad disingenuous.

Only three of the ten commandments have analogs in the common law, or in the laws of most states:

The first two exist in nearly every society (all of them if you're willing to define "murder" loosely enough). The third is an obvious necessity for any court system.

The totality hardly seems to confirm the notion that the ten commandments are the "basis of our legal system".

Also, if you trace the common law back far enough, you'll see that it originates in pagan Anglo-Saxon law.


I said
along with other historical codes are a part of the basi
. Hammurabi, Roman & Greek law, etc. The 10 Commandments were one of the first written legal codes, and therefore are a part of our legal history.
 

gsx1138

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Which Ten Commandments?

First Tables of Stone (Exodus 20)
("which Moses didst break")



Second Tables of Stone (Exodus 34)
("the words that were on the first")


1. I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me.



1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).


2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image. You shall not bow down to them or serve them.



2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.


3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.



3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.


4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.



4. All the first-born are mine.


5. Honor your father and your mother.



5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.


6. You shall not kill.



6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.


7. You shall not commit adultery.



7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.


8. You shall not steal.



8. The fat of my feast shall not remain all night until the morning.


9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.



9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.


10. You shall not covet.



10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk.


Adapted from Microsoft Bookshelf 98



K. Budde, History of Ancient Hebrew Literature


So do you not work on the Sabbath or boil a goat in its mothers milk? I've actually read the Bible, the entire bible. And two versions of it. I was even in process of being a Minister. I know the apologist arguments because I used to make them. There are two different sets of 10 commandments because, of the suspected 5 writers of the old testament, each writer wrote over and modified what was previously written. The apologist view is that these people were trying to write the same thing but wrote different version of the same thing. Which certainly throws out the inerrant viewpoint.
 

Metalhead47

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Different religious groups have different 10 commandments. Even Muslims have 10 commandments:


I think gsx was confusing the repetition of the 10 commandments with the repetition of the creation myth, where the order is changed around.


Those commandments are virtual identical, of course, to the Hebrew commandments. When one mentiones "The Ten Commandments," they are almost universally refer erring to those of the Hebrew scriptures.
 
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