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Thread: Study help needed, workign on ending useless suitability

  1. #1
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Study help needed, workign on ending useless suitability

    Hello all,

    I am working on a few fronts to end the suitability requirement here in CT. I'm working with a few people on a few issues and compiling data for every town (yep, 169 of 'em) in CT. At least as many as possible.

    I can use help from people here on one front.

    If you attend CCDL meetings or you are willing to snail mail me, it could help me considerably.

    All I need is for people to go down to their local PD or first selectman and ask for a copy of the paperwork needed to obtain a pistol permit.

    There are several towns that are asking for extra information above and beyond statutory requirement. We'd like to compile as much of this data as possible going forward.

    If you have a scanner and can scan a high quality scan, you can email them to me as well jonathan@ctgunsafety.com

    Snail mail address available via PM.

    Thanx in advance for any help in this matter, 169 towns is a lot and I need as much help as I can get!

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  2. #2
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    So far, Goshen, Middletown and I'll hit a few tomorrow.

    I really need the 'Stavens (New, East, North). Problems in all three too!

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  3. #3
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    I have to pick up paperwork for my fiance. Ill grab an extra set for you. Town of montville.

    David

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    Do you want Norwalk? When I got mine they didn't ask for anything extra but I'll get it if you want.
    I dont check here every but you can e-mail me at ken.prince@snet.net if I'm not around.

    Regards,

    Ken.

  5. #5
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Yep, even if they don't ask for anything extra, the data is useful.

    it helps me balance out data based on ALL towns. I prefer to construct an argument based on real data. the anti's way is easier, but, factually deficient.

    Thanx!

    Again, they can be emailed to be at jonathan@ctgunsafety.com

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  6. #6
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Middletown and New Britain added.

    Only about 160 to go!

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  7. #7
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    I can get Milford and Shelton

  8. #8
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Please do!

    I want to make sure I don't do what the "anti's" do and make sure at least my data is factually sound.

    Thanx,

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  9. #9
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    I have spare North Haven forms somewhere in my office. I'll contact you as soon as I find it.

  10. #10
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    Just sent you forms I had from last year when I went through this same exercise. Don't know if they'll help, but you can decide.

  11. #11
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    KIX,
    I have the ablility to scan and send them to you in email, or do you prefer the snail mail option?
    JimmyD

  12. #12
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Midnight, scanned copies are just fine.

    Gluegun - thanx. I'll use them to fill in any gaps if needed. Also, they have one added benefit.

    Curious if a few of those towns ever took into effect last years January 20 letter to the towns and first selectman.

    Any idea when you acquired them? How far did you get on your exercise? What was your purpose? Just curious. My study is two pronged. One for the need for suitability and the other to track towns that are doing extra stuff that isn't required, but being used to deny a permit (that only gets approved by the board anyway).

    The preliminary data is interesting. All the towns where issuing authorities ask for additional information are exactly the towns with issues.

    Sad that one area, a State LEO is asking for extra information. A statie is not following the states own guidelines!

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  13. #13
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    Jonathan
    North Haven forms have been emailed to you.

    JimmD

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    Berlin Permit Application

    The town of Berlin in their instruction's still ask for 3 reference's, even after the Board Of Firearms Permit Examiners declairatory ruleing was pointed out to the Chief & the Police Commision!

  15. #15
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    I read the BFPE ruling as......

    "this is what the law states, we can't stop you from asking for other material, but if you use other material as the basis for denial of a permit, we'll overturn it".

    Maybe others can comment on that further.

    From the few hearings I've attended, they have seemed very fair to the appellant. Further reason to get this suitability crap done and over with. Many towns didn't like the fact that the legislature was looking at even removing the town from the equation. No surprise, the problem towns seemed to be the only ones that testified!

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    Gluegun - thanx. I'll use them to fill in any gaps if needed. Also, they have one added benefit.

    Curious if a few of those towns ever took into effect last years January 20 letter to the towns and first selectman.

    Any idea when you acquired them? How far did you get on your exercise? What was your purpose? Just curious. My study is two pronged. One for the need for suitability and the other to track towns that are doing extra stuff that isn't required, but being used to deny a permit (that only gets approved by the board anyway).
    We started collecting information to find out what towns were requiring extra information. What I sent you was about the extent of it. Not many people were willing to participate by sending information.

    I'm not sure when I received them, but the scanned copies were dated in Feb. of 2010. I'm assuming that all the applications/extra requirements were written prior to the Jan. 20th ruling.

  17. #17
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    QUOTE: I read the BFPE ruling as......

    "this is what the law states, we can't stop you from asking for other material, but if you require other information without cause and use it as the basis for denial of a permit, we'll overturn it".

    Maybe others can comment on that further.
    /QUOTE

    They stated that police COULD ask for additional information if what they saw on the application warranted further investigation. They could not require that additional information be provided up front.

  18. #18
    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    I read the BFPE ruling as......

    "this is what the law states, we can't stop you from asking for other material, but if you use other material as the basis for denial of a permit, we'll overturn it".

    Jonathan
    The way I read it I understood it to mean that if an applicant refuses to provide this additional information at the time of initial application submission that the issuing authority could not use that refusal as a reason to not process the application or issue a denial. If during their "investigation" into "suitability" something arises that raises questions they can ask for additional information.

  19. #19
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    BRK913 brings up something I'm noticing on forms this week.

    Some towns like Middletown was chastised for the way they did their permitting and extra information. Now, they put the word "optional" in front of the request. I just received a Waterbury application from a few months ago that does not mention the word "option". would be nice to see if they deny a person for not having them.

    I want to see if they get denied or hold indefinitely the permit until they get their wishes fulfilled.

    Methinks I want to follow up on some Waterbury cases and investigate.

    I wish I could think of a way for people having issues that don't go to CCDL meetings to notify me so I can assist them with all this BS. I'm finding too many people at gun shops having issues. I like to help, but man..... I think I'm going to make a web site devoted to permitting issues and this study.

    Domain name ideas????

    Jonathan
    dL
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  20. #20
    Regular Member ZechariahS's Avatar
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    I should be at the Bozrah town hall within the next month or so. I will try to remember to get you copies of their paperwork.

  21. #21
    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KIX View Post
    BRK913 brings up something I'm noticing on forms this week.

    Some towns like Middletown was chastised for the way they did their permitting and extra information. Now, they put the word "optional" in front of the request. I just received a Waterbury application from a few months ago that does not mention the word "option". would be nice to see if they deny a person for not having them.

    I want to see if they get denied or hold indefinitely the permit until they get their wishes fulfilled.

    Methinks I want to follow up on some Waterbury cases and investigate.

    I wish I could think of a way for people having issues that don't go to CCDL meetings to notify me so I can assist them with all this BS. I'm finding too many people at gun shops having issues. I like to help, but man..... I think I'm going to make a web site devoted to permitting issues and this study.

    Domain name ideas????

    Jonathan
    dL
    I am an instructor and have asked my students to let me know of any problems they have at different departments. Waterbury still will not take the application without the letters of reference, at least as of about 2 months ago. In fact the woman behind the glass who takes the applications walked away and turned her back to my student and when he tried to ask her questions and she would not even look up at him, she just ignored him till he went away.

    I am going to ask my students to pick up a copy af the application from their towns ahead of time and I will try to take copies for you. How about www.ctpermitproblems.com or www.ctpistolpermitissues.com

  22. #22
    Regular Member KIX's Avatar
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    Thanx for the Waterbury notice.

    May be time to register a complaint, but we need the actual permit holders that had issues (I think) to help make the complaint (at least it would help).

    I like the domain name ideas. I might just use one of them.

    As far as copies, please do. I think I have an older version of Waterbury that I'm working from at the moment.

    I'm finding many have interesting notary issues (more since I last posted on the topic).

    I'll inquire about how we can raise the issue about refusal to accept the paperwork at the next BFPE hearing. I sometimes engage in informal dialogue during break time and that might be a good time to present the issue.

    Thanx for letting me know about this one, that is a serious issue indeed.

    Jonathan
    www.ctpistolpermitissues.com - tracking all the local issuing authority, DPS and other insanity with permit issues
    www.ctgunsafety.com - my blog and growing list of links useful to gun owners (especially in Connecticut).

    Rich B: My favorite argument against OC being legal in CT is "I have never seen someone OC in CT".
    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

  23. #23
    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    I have another issue as well, I cannot remember the department, I will have to go through my emails but they are telling applicants that they cannot get in for their fingerprtinting and "interview" until mid May, I think that's ridiculous but wht can be done about it? I told him to get all his paperwork together and submit it via registerd mail, I believe the 8 weeks starts the day they sign for it. I told him that at the 8 week point if he cannot get an answer he should file an immediate appeal to the board....I think it was Derby but don't hold me to that, I will find the email and verify the town.

    Also, I am sure you know about this one, Hartford will not give out an applicaiton until person has taken the class, a clear violation of 29-28.

  24. #24
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    Applications are not required to be submitted in person. I recommend submitting the application via Certified US Mail with Return Receipt Requested. Someone has to sign for the letter indicating it has been received and therefore accepted. Any refusal to process the application thereafter is grounds for immediate appeal.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post
    I have another issue as well, I cannot remember the department, I will have to go through my emails but they are telling applicants that they cannot get in for their fingerprtinting and "interview" until mid May, I think that's ridiculous but wht can be done about it? I told him to get all his paperwork together and submit it via registerd mail, I believe the 8 weeks starts the day they sign for it. I told him that at the 8 week point if he cannot get an answer he should file an immediate appeal to the board....I think it was Derby but don't hold me to that, I will find the email and verify the town.

    Also, I am sure you know about this one, Hartford will not give out an applicaiton until person has taken the class, a clear violation of 29-28.
    You do not have to go to the town of application to get your finger prints taken. You can go to ANY town willing to do finger prints. DPS does them for $15 I think, on the new electronic scanners.

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