Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30

Thread: Man attacked while OC?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    SEMO, , USA
    Posts
    578

    Man attacked while OC?

    I was on another forum and asked for any example of anyone OCing being attacked for it. I expected to have the man in WI brought up and was shocked when this was brought to my attention.


    http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S...shtml?cat=500#


    Was very surprised that I hadn't seen it here first. Does anyone have any additional info?

  2. #2
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,937
    A person crazy enough or criminal enough to attack a law-abiding OC'er was a ticking time bomb who was going to be triggered by any number of things, or triggered by nothing at all, and attack SOMEONE.

    These incidents are rare but prove that, yes, there are very crazy people out there and you need to be situationally aware (no matter how you carry or even if you don't) and able to defend against them.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  3. #3
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    north mason county, Washington, USA
    Posts
    4,381

    Nooo!!!

    This IS a real gun grab!!!
    the bad guy was NOT a dea agent! he was a deranged psycho!
    the bad guy targeted the open carrier because he had an exposed gun!
    the bad guy used the ruse of being LEO to try to get the gun!

    as an aside,,, the open carrier is in trouble with the law because,
    in new mexico, you can only carry concealed with a CPL in a place
    that sells alcohol, you cannot open carry in those places!


    history,,,
    3 years ago, a forum member called anti506, a young wannabe LEO,
    wrote the he had been gun grabbed, this was never confirmed,
    he went on to kill a man in a drug buy/bust gone bad, this was confirmed!

    2 years ago, a guy reported that he had been held up,
    and his gun was stolen,
    the story fell apart and he confessed that it was all a lie,
    his gun was safely hidden at home!

    1 years ago, a guy in Wisconsin,
    got robbed at gun point, of his wallet and open carried gun,
    the story was reported by the media, but there was no corroborating witnesses,
    it was widely believed that it was a setup fake robbery,
    meant to push for concealed carry rights!
    Last edited by 1245A Defender; 03-03-2011 at 10:51 AM.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Carson City, Nevada, USA
    Posts
    344
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I don't think this counts as a true "I'm gunna get your gun cuz I want your gun" type of attack. Torres was mental according to the report....sucks for Garcia though. In this case, I will state that deep CCW should have been the rule that day for Garcia.
    And how in the world do you know that today is the day that a deranged nut is going to confront you? The answer is that you don't!

    What this story shows is a couple of things:

    1. Just because you OC doesn't mean the bad guys automatically leave you alone. You'd better have a few more options to deal with nutcases than a gun. Learn to fight, learn to physically handle yourself in a confrontation. Cops, who do open carry...who do have backup are attacked on a regular basis and there's no reason to think anyone is immune from these nuts.

    2. Get a retention holster! Here, the gun winds up on the floor!! Don't be carrying in those cheap, nylon holsters that wobble around on the belt. Get quality, (and yes it's expensive) retention capable holsters.

    And finally, situational awareness. The guy comes in and announces that he is DEA? Without flashing his creds? Cops don't do this and yet this guy allowed this nut to close with him!

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    SEMO, , USA
    Posts
    578
    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    One of the hazards of OC is that the police will unreasonably harass OCers. This will continue until OC is once again normalized.

    This does not qualify as a "gun grab" or as an OCer targeted first by a BG. What, on the surface, it qualifies as is a gross violation of an LAC's rights by a LEO. (However, if the agent did indeed have evidence of the OCer's intent to rob the restaurant (Ha!), then this could be a justifiable (yeah, right) law enforcement action.)

    If one wants to put forth the argument that OCers being harassed by LEOs is a reason not to OC, then this story would serve as a stark example. (However, that LEOs would harass citizens for a lawful activity, to me, is a reason to participate in that lawful activity, in order to bring about an end to that harassment.) But, the arguments that this anecdote is being used to support is that (1) OCers are more subject to "gun grabs" than CCers are and that (2) OC makes a person the first target of a BG trying to commit a crime in the area. The above story supports neither of those arguments.
    Not sure, but I think you probably just skimmed article Eye. The man who attacked the gentleman OC had mental problems and only claimed he was DEA.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    SEMO, , USA
    Posts
    578
    Defender, I was under the impression that attack in WI was real. How creditable are the allegations of a set-up? I would appreciate any info.

  7. #7
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    north mason county, Washington, USA
    Posts
    4,381

    well,,

    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    Defender, I was under the impression that attack in WI was real. How creditable are the allegations of a set-up? I would appreciate any info.
    no corroborating witness, and it seemed too pat.
    the OCer made a habit of showing off his gun, and walked in bad areas of town, for no good reason.
    wasnt situationally aware, and said he had to help the robber operate his holster.
    the comparisons to the fake robbery seemed too convenient.
    although, a trusted poster vouched for the robbed guy, but he would never speak up for himself!
    even if it was not a fake setup robbery,
    the guy seemed to be actively asking for just that kind of trouble.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  8. #8
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    north mason county, Washington, USA
    Posts
    4,381

    Wow!!!

    thank you SavageOne, for quoting eye95 post, i was shocked that he would delete it!
    normally he is up for a good discussion, but i guess he was wrong enough this time to quit!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    SEMO, , USA
    Posts
    578
    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    thank you SavageOne, for quoting eye95 post, i was shocked that he would delete it!
    normally he is up for a good discussion, but i guess he was wrong enough this time to quit!

    I would have to guess that his initial response was a simple mistake from simply skimming the article. I know in the past there have been times I have done the same thing. I would like to hear his and others reactions to this story, since it does seem to be a legitimate incident.

    We will only lose creditability with our detractors if we stick our heads in the sand and don't give this an honest look.

  10. #10
    Regular Member DevinWKuska's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Spanaway
    Posts
    300
    I think there are a few issues with this story.
    #1 the guy was carrying illegaly, hopefully because he was ignorant to a specific law and not out of outright disregard for the law as this could damage OC in the public eye.

    #2 like I think someone else pointed out his holster IMO had to have been sub-par for his gun to fall out. Now I do realize the two wrestled a bit so it is forseeable that if it had a retention strap it could have been un-done. or if its like the bladetech holster I have perphaps the two hit the release button. EIther way guys good reminder to make sure your firearms are "secured" at all times eh?

    RE: Eye95 comments... Eye IMO is a very detail oriented person I suspect his comment was again from skimming through the article. I dont think Eye's comment would have been posted if he had read the whole document. Eye is usually too good to make sucha mistake. Besides... he, like many ofyou is my brother from another mother... Cheers!
    "So there I was between a rock and a hard place, when it hit me... What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063
    My comment was made in error. I removed it. Simple.

  12. #12
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Yakima, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,463
    Anytime knows you are carrying be it open or concealed there is a real threat that someone may try and take it.
    We hear about it with law enforcement at times.
    In Seattle a couple of years ago where a person armed went to draw a weapon and the fight for control of the weapon ensued and a couple of people where hit by a round that was discharged. (note it appeared he should not have brought the gun into the situation but he did).
    Most accept the concept that most self defense situations are with in 21 feet and much closer, why would it not be conceivable that your gun maybe taken away and our need to take steps to prevent just that.
    I know in saying that it is hard to say that open carry prevents crimes, people prevent crimes not open display.

    While there are those that will argue this point we must ask why do we always recommend using a level 2 security holster?
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  13. #13
    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Tukwila, WA, ,
    Posts
    1,398
    Serpa lvl 2 cross draw, 15% oleoresin capisicum, legal BIRKER knife, some canine teeth, complete with titanium elbow to the face.

    Bring it on street scum!


    Been harassed by the police? Yelled at by the anti-gun neighbors? Mother doesn't approve?

    Then this is the place for you! Click here to get back at them!

  14. #14
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Franklin, VA, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    1,448
    I had read a couple years ago about a town in the western part of the country (I think) where a group of BGs were targeting people who had clip on knives. They would jump out armed front and back and shake down the victim, relieving him of his knife, wallet, and fairly often a gun. The report was that it had happened several times.

    Is this one of the faked stories?
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  15. #15
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,066
    I read this article before and thought he was the restaurant owner. lol.

    Bad situation though.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    I like how they arrested the victim.

    Real classy.

  17. #17
    Regular Member amzbrady's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Marysville, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,522
    Looks like his firearm failed as a self defense tool...
    If you voted for Obama to prove you are not a racist...
    what will you do now to prove you are not stupid?

    "The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened." - Norman Thomas

    "They who can who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve niether liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin

  18. #18
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Yakima, Washington, USA
    Posts
    3,463
    Quote Originally Posted by amzbrady View Post
    Looks like his firearm failed as a self defense tool...
    Would you expand on this concept of the firearm failed as a self defense tool? As with anything else we usually discuss or refer to it is not the gun it is the person and in this case I think it still applies.
    We need to also acknowledge the LAC (legally armed citizen) will not always come out on top even though we hope they will.

    Granted he was in violation of NM Law on open carrying in this establishment that serves alcohol but the greater part of it could be situational awareness, weapons retention, physical self defense and of course the firearm.
    Likely this guy got to close before steps were taken to prevent him from attacking.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenIsFaster View Post
    legal BIRKER knife
    Is that one you do or do not get shot for carrying?

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    This is actually why I try to avoid sitting strong-side out at a table.

    While I do maintain that OC is a deterrent, when immobile at a table one is much more vulnerable. I prefer for my gun to not be the first thing a shady person sees when he walks in.

    Walking down the street, it's a different story. If I happen to run across, while walking around, a group ready to jump out of their cars and rob me at gunpoint, I guess they get my gun. This is pretty much what it would take to disarm me while I'm on foot.

  21. #21
    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Clayton, NC
    Posts
    1,319

    Off Topic

    I was under the impression that LAC= Law Abiding Citizen. Above, LAC is referenced as "Legally Armed Citizen." What is it?
    "They don't give a damn about any trumpet playing band
    It ain't what they call rock and roll
    And the Sultans...
    Yeah the Sultans, they play Creole"

    OCDO Member
    NCGO Member

  22. #22
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Fairborn, Ohio, USA
    Posts
    13,063
    Quote Originally Posted by sultan62 View Post
    I was under the impression that LAC= Law Abiding Citizen. Above, LAC is referenced as "Legally Armed Citizen." What is it?
    LAC was "law abiding citizen" long before a few started using it for "legally armed citizen." When I see LAC, I assume the former.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    SEMO, , USA
    Posts
    578
    I was surprised at first that some many of the 4-digit worth of posts members were being so quite about this story. There are many here who don't seem to have a problem giving their opinions on any and every subject, yet they remain strangely quiet on this.

    Originally, Eye95 posted on this story. I believed his post was simply the result of just skimming the article not actually reading the facts as presented. He deleted the post and stated it had been a mistake. He gave no other opinion on this subject. I thought it strange that he didn't seem to have an opinion on this, but knowing that he and I have had rather heated debates, I assumed that he simply didn't want to discuss this since I had posted it. Imagine my shock when I find in a posting today Eye95 stating that there is a "lack of reports to date" to support this happening.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...uman-think-not!


    So, is that how the "majority" are going to deal with this? Instead of actually acknowledging it simply say these kinds of things "almost never" happen. Remain silent and ignore that it has? When we get into debates with those that oppose OC how will our creditability suffer for this?

    I believe this was an isolated incident that is not indicative of normal events for someone who choses to OC. If I, like some here seem to be want to do, remain silent and don't admit that, it has in fact happened then all my arguments in favor of OC will come off as hollow and false. I won't do that as I think it hurts us more than it helps. I hope there are a few others out there that feel the same.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Posts
    11,487
    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    I was surprised at first that some many of the 4-digit worth of posts members were being so quite about this story. There are many here who don't seem to have a problem giving their opinions on any and every subject, yet they remain strangely quiet on this.

    Originally, Eye95 posted on this story. I believed his post was simply the result of just skimming the article not actually reading the facts as presented. He deleted the post and stated it had been a mistake. He gave no other opinion on this subject. I thought it strange that he didn't seem to have an opinion on this, but knowing that he and I have had rather heated debates, I assumed that he simply didn't want to discuss this since I had posted it. Imagine my shock when I find in a posting today Eye95 stating that there is a "lack of reports to date" to support this happening.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...uman-think-not!


    So, is that how the "majority" are going to deal with this? Instead of actually acknowledging it simply say these kinds of things "almost never" happen. Remain silent and ignore that it has? When we get into debates with those that oppose OC how will our creditability suffer for this?

    I believe this was an isolated incident that is not indicative of normal events for someone who choses to OC. If I, like some here seem to be want to do, remain silent and don't admit that, it has in fact happened then all my arguments in favor of OC will come off as hollow and false. I won't do that as I think it hurts us more than it helps. I hope there are a few others out there that feel the same.
    Any computer security expert will tell you that there is no way to eliminate risk. A tightening in one area creates a relative loosening in another.

    The way to approach security is with what is known as a threat model.

    Simply put, what is your threat model?

    While there are recorded instances of criminals targeting people they suspect to be armed (doesn't seem like a career with a long future), and there is this crazy guy who, well, I don't know exactly what he was trying to do... statistically, most crime is at neither extreme: it is rarely schizophrenically spontaneous nor calculatedly well-planned and executed.

    My threat model is this: At some random time, some random criminal or criminals of average or above-average capability want to take someone's, potentially my, wallet, or break into my house and take my stuff. It's pretty clear that, for the run-of-the-mill, average criminal who wants a wallet, open carry will serve as a deterrent and, if it fails to do so, provides readier deployment. (For the home scenario it seems to make less tactical difference, and comfort factors into it more.)

    While its conceivable some other, harder criminal might be partly incentivized by the presence of a gun, he still has a very serious consideration to make with regard to a cocked and locked 1911 in a quick-draw level II+ retention holster. A criminal who isn't afraid of that won't go long before learning why he ought to be, the hard way. Is it safe to bet that guy doesn't practice ultra-fast point shooting after a quick-draw? Or that he isn't a pro who can make aimed fire just as fast as the point shooter? Those are crappy bets to make, considering the stakes. Criminals are opportunists, not heroes of arch-villianry.

    If you're a spy, or your heroic tacticool fantasy revolves around obscure and unlikely contingencies, well, then you may decide otherwise.


    Edit: By the way, this is eye95 you're talking about. I would venture that he has, in general, less rather than more respect amongst the rest of the "four digit post counters". I consider him a sophist of the highest order, and say so freely.
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-06-2011 at 11:17 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Whatcom County
    Posts
    17,338
    The guys was batspit crazy!!!

    Still rarely going to happen. Other than that it still is rarely ever going to happen. And shouldn't have here. The man at the table might have mistaken the guy who announced himself as an LEO as an LEO. That might have been the cause of the hesitation. Who knows I wasn't there and the details are a little sketchy.

    Type of criminals:

    Casual, career, psychopath this seems to be the later and is a rarity both casual or career criminals have an inherit desire to preserve life and are more than likely to ever be cautious about approaching armed "victims".
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •