I have lost count how many times in this post you actually proved my point and disproved your own. Wow, you might want to re-read what you posted and do a major edit job "sparky"
Thank you for letting me play (and win)
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Business owners rights
- Thread starter hrdware
- Start date
I have lost count how many times in this post you actually proved my point and disproved your own. Wow, you might want to re-read what you posted and do a major edit job "sparky"
Thank you for letting me play (and win)
Private Property = Private
Business Property = Business
With me so far?
Let me tell you a story about Joe Blow...mmmmk?
Joe Blow owns a house on 2 acres just outside of town..... This is his PRIVATE property....... Here, he can allow or even dis-allow whomever he wants onto this PRIVATE property. There are no Laws about whether he can or cannot say or post a sign saying "no African-Americans allowed here"
Joe Blow also owns a BUSINESS property in town....... This is his BUSINESS property....... Here, He has to abide by certain LAWS AND REGULATIONS in order to operate a BUSINESS in this particular town, in this particular state, and in this particular country.... (are you still here? GOOD!) Now, lets say Joe Blowputs up a sign on the door of that BUSINESS that states "No African Americans Allowed" Hmmmmm, wonder what is gonna happen to Joe Blow and his BUSINESS??????? Well, he will probably almost immediatly get a notice that he is NOT ALLOWED TO DO THAT......
I wonder why that doesnt happen when he does the same type of thing EXACTLY on his PRIVATE property???? Maybe because they are NOT THE SAME????
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, say it isnt so!!!!!!!!!!
*GASP* I thought that business property is Private property.............., That is what someone on here keeps trying to tell me......, Isn't it??????????
*****
--Moderator Warning--
Personal attacks and insults will NOT be tolerated.
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Relax dude, you win.
Arguing with a bucket of half-dried paint has never been my strong point. Grab a beer, sit back, and revel in your victory.
I'm no match for your agonizingly superior intellect. In fact, it hurts my feelings a little.
Arguing with a bucket of half-dried paint has never been my strong point. Grab a beer, sit back, and revel in your victory.
I'm no match for your agonizingly superior intellect. In fact, it hurts my feelings a little.
wrightme
Regular Member
Your "right" to stand on the soles of your feet upon property that belongs to another is subservient to the rights of the owner of the property your feet are standing upon.
A business owner does not need a sign to say you are not welcome. He can walk up to you, tell you that "you are not welcome in my store," and tell you to depart. If you do not, he is well within his rights to call law enforcement to have you removed, as once you refused to depart, you are trespassing on his property.
It is of note that I presented all of this information to you without once resorting to insulting sentences.
Depending upon the specific statute in the state where such business is located, a sign indicating "no guns allowed" may either a) be notice of trespass that can result in arrest if violated or b) not worth the paper it is printed upon. But, barring that, trespass law should always be followed; whether you are of ethnic persuasion of ANY kind, holstering a firearm, wearing a t-shirt that says "I'm with stupid," or simply minding your own business. It is the business owners job to mind HIS business as he sees fit.
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wrightme
Regular Member
The simple fact is this (as I see it).
If a business owner says "I don't allow guns in here," you have a choice. Either remain in the store and discuss this with him until he tells you to depart (trespassing you), or simply depart without the hoopla, and no longer provide him with your custom.
If a business owner says "you are not welcome in my store as long as you are carrying a firearm," you now only have one legal course of action; depart. To reenter, you would need to disarm or be subject to LE contact due to violation of trespass law.
wrightme
Regular Member
What does the ORC say about trespass? Does it make distinction between business property and private domicile?
And, from someone who is more "in the know" than either you or I:
http://www.forums.opencarry.org/for...-Us-Boycott.&p=1355162&viewfull=1#post1355162
That was from the "Toy's r Us" boycott thread that you also partook in. You should remember this post from that thread.
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wrightme
Regular Member
In theory, I agree with your "Rights" point. But the niggle in this instance is in what constitutes discrimination. For this specific, it is based upon "equal rights," meaning civil rights. Until RKBA is designated such, it is fair game, where discrimination based upon such items as race, creed, or color isn't.
Businesses cannot prevent entry based upon race, creed, or color. Other than that, they typically can "reserve the right to refuse service" to you or me. No reason needed to emply that tool. If that involves telling the carrying public they are not welcome, absent statute preventing it, they can.
lockman
State Researcher
The property owners rights extend to prohibiting the exercise of your rights while on his property while violating his terms of entry. The government exercises its powers to create "protected classifications" that trump the property owners rights. Currently persons lacking shirts, shoes and bearing guns are not among these protected classes.
In addition to being extremely brash with your opinions, you are wrong on the law.
Generically, the are two classes of property: Government (at whatever level) and private property which is simply non-government owned or leased.
Sears, Wal-Mart or a ma 'n pa grocery store are all unequivocally private property. The fact that different laws may apply than to a home is an invalid argument. There are different codes and regulations for individual homes than multi-family, but both are still real estate - the same laws do not unilaterally effect them both.
What makes a business different in the context of what you are trying to discuss is a term called "protected classes" under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 amongst others.
You may as an individual home owner exclude anyone you chose from these two groups linked above. As a business you may not; however, as a business owner you may exclude anyone wearing a red shirt, a blue hat or carrying a gun - none of these are protected classes on your private property/business.
Suggest that you read up on these laws and be more cognizant of their application. If knowledge is power, then the lack of it must be a weak sister. Also, when you engage in a discussion here do so from a basis of fact, not ranting what you think something is or should be and attempting to sell it as fact. I fear you are gaining a negative image and that is unfortunate - It would seem you have attracted at least one moderator.
Try saying, "Thank you for the information. I'll look into that."
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This is the type of answer I was looking for.
Didn't mean to get a big huge "discussion" going about exactly where rights got into conflict of each other.
eye95
Well-known member
Even a non-business is not allowed to discriminate against protected classes. Try not selling your house to a member of a protected class and watch what happens!
The argument you are making is even stronger when it is pointed out that it is not the imagined distinction between "business property" and private property that matters. It is whether one is refusing to do business with a protected class that will get a business owner (or a private property owner) into trouble.
Oh, and two extra free pennies: I don't want carriers to become a protected class. And I wish they'd do away with all other protected classes. It is antithetical to Liberty to provide additional privileges to folks just because they belong to some group that the government feels the need to infantilize by protecting them.
wrightme
Regular Member
eye, that is a good distinction to point out. It is the business aspect of property that matters where protected classes are concerned.
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Actually as an individual owner I may discriminate legally in any manner I choose if I am willing to do all of the paper work etc myself - a broker may not discriminate.
What Housing Is Covered?
The Fair Housing Act covers most housing. In some circumstances, the Act exempts owner-occupied buildings with no more than four units, single-family housing sold or rented without the use of a broker, and housing operated by organizations and private clubs that limit occupancy to members.
http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/FHLaws/yourrights
So, my pre-existing Right to bear arms... disappears the moment I step foot onto a property that has invited me (public) there? So sad that you think that way, it truly is.... Anything that belongs to me within my personal space is of NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS as long as I dont cause you or others harm with it..... The mere fact that I have it in my possession is irrelevant to you or your property.... It is doing NOTHING to you!
No-one, anywhere on this rock spinning in space has the legal (true, actual) power OR authority to disarm me against my will without one or both of us dying in the process.......
Until YOU (everyone reading this) get that serious about your inalienable rights as a human..... there will be arguments (discussions) like the one we are having (had) , and the liberals will keep backing you down and chipping away at your rights (not mine, I retain ALL of mine, ALWAYS) and pretty soon, you will have no-where left to back up to, or nothing left to compromise, because it will all be gone... and you will have fallen over the cliff backwards.....
May your chains rest lightly.........
No-one, anywhere on this rock spinning in space has the legal (true, actual) power OR authority to disarm me against my will without one or both of us dying in the process.......
Until YOU (everyone reading this) get that serious about your inalienable rights as a human..... there will be arguments (discussions) like the one we are having (had) , and the liberals will keep backing you down and chipping away at your rights (not mine, I retain ALL of mine, ALWAYS) and pretty soon, you will have no-where left to back up to, or nothing left to compromise, because it will all be gone... and you will have fallen over the cliff backwards.....
May your chains rest lightly.........
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wrightme
Regular Member
Nope. That Right still exists. But it is not absolute once you step foot onto the property of another. They CAN tell you to leave for any reason. If that reason is because you choose to go armed, they can still tell you to leave. Once informed that you are "no longer invited in," trespass law takes effect. If you still desire to be armed as your 2nd Amendment Right does not prevent, you can do so......somewhere else.
So, what Ohio Statute covering trespass law separates private and business property?
Your Rights do not trump those of others. They exist beside them. Where theirs would deny yours, stay beside their property all you want; but not on property where you have been trespassed from.
For Ohio: State v. Keegan
Being told to leave is sufficient in Ohio to revoke your privilege of entry into public property. You do not have your Right to Bear Arms infringed upon. Instead, it is that your Privilege of entering the property of a business gets revoked.
Ohio has some good online reference for statute, and Criminal Trespass.
Further, you may want to brush up on the relevant statute, 2911.21, before you run afoul of this statute that allows a business owner to trespass you.
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You are invited if you accept their rules, if not you are not welcome/permitted - simple you may keep your rights and go elsewhere. Your rights end precisely where mine begin. When in your house, I must abide by your rules - I doubt you would have it any other way.
A concern exists as to the motive behind your straw arguments and red herrings.
Of even greater dismay are your words "one or both of us dying in the process...."
That, sir, IMO constitutes a threat of violence and a serious breach of OCDO rules and principles.
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eye95
Well-known member
The HUD charged a couple, not the RE agents, for failing to sell their home to a black couple. http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal...-sell-house-to-george-willborn_100411176.html
JamesCanby
Activist Member
You are woefully lacking in your knowledge of the law. A patron who enters a business that is open to the public is legally termed a "business invitee." That is, the proprietor has "invited" you to enter his business, but that "invitation" can be revoked for any reason whatsoever unless the law forbids specific discrimination, i.e., discrimination against the "protected classes" is not allowed. The right to bear arms is not a "protected class," so if a businessperson does not want anyone in his/her store to be carrying a firearm or other weapon, he has every right to exclude that person.
The 2nd Amendment, like all of the other amendments in the Bill of Rights, exists to prevent the *government* from treating its citizens unfairly. One cannot invoke the 2nd Amendment to force a private business owner to give up his property rights, e.g., the right to control who enters his establishment.
Chap
Regular Member
I'm sorry but I have to admit I enjoyed this dialogue.
Yes it was heated at times. I learn a lot from hearing both sides of an issue. Especially when both sides are passionate about their perception.
Thanks for the insight from ALL those involved.
Chap
Yes it was heated at times. I learn a lot from hearing both sides of an issue. Especially when both sides are passionate about their perception.
Thanks for the insight from ALL those involved.
Chap