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Thread: help me with the law

  1. #1
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    help me with the law

    Utah code 76-10-523 in part states: Section 76-10-505 does not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued. Section 76-10-505 in part states: A person may not carry a loaded firearm in a posted prohibited area. If I am reading this correctly, a concealed firearm permit authorizes me to carry a loaded firearm in a posted prohibited area. Yes? or NO?
    Last edited by sjmarsing; 03-04-2011 at 03:14 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjmarsing View Post
    Utah code 76-10-523 in part states: Section 76-10-505 does not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued. Section 76-10-505 in part states: A person may not carry a loaded firearm in a posted prohibited area. If I am reading this correctly, a concealed firearm permit authorizes me to carry a loaded firearm in a posted prohibited area. Yes? or NO?
    NO.

    You need to view them in proper context beginning with Utah Code Title 76Chapter10 Section 500, pay particular attention to 504.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    the way I read it 523 explains that 504 (1) and (2) and the entire section of 505 don't apply to holders of a concealed weapons permit

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    I guess what I'm wondering is why does the permit allow carry in a vehicle or on a street but NOT in a posted prohibited area. ALL of those places are specifically mentioned in 505 which doesn't apply to anyone with a concealed weapons permit.
    Last edited by sjmarsing; 03-04-2011 at 04:32 PM.

  5. #5
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjmarsing View Post
    the way I read it 523 explains that 504 (1) and (2) and the entire section of 505 don't apply to holders of a concealed weapons permit
    You need to sit down with someone face to face if you wish to have all of the law interpreted for you or take a class. Unfortunately, this is not such a classroom setting suited to training on how the read the entire law.

    I will take one line of one section as an example for you - 505

    " (ii) the person is carrying the loaded firearm in a vehicle with the consent of the person lawfully in possession of the vehicle"

    You say that with a permit this section does NOT apply to you?

    Get into a vehicle with a loaded handgun w/o the permission of the driver (at least implied) and see where you end up. The car/truck is their's; the permit is yours - They do NOT have to allow the two together. It is a private vehicle - simple enough.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Section 523 says 505 doesn't apply. Doesn't specify which parts do and don't.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjmarsing View Post
    Section 523 says 505 doesn't apply. Doesn't specify which parts do and don't.
    I cannot help you with reading comprehension and do not wish to be demeaning.

    Suggest you pick one of these:
    http://www.utahconcealedcarry.com/fo...pic.php?t=1364
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    All I'm asking for is to see a law that prohibits carry in prohibited areas for cwp holders. Rumors and hearsay are not law. I've read posts on this forum from members who have taken classes and were given false information such as: "YOU MUST HAVE YOUR FIREARM CONCEALED" which is not true. I have contacted Utah BCI about my question based on their FAQ page and they have not given me a response.
    Last edited by sjmarsing; 03-04-2011 at 07:18 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjmarsing View Post
    Utah code 76-10-523 in part states: Section 76-10-505 does not apply to any person to whom a permit to carry a concealed firearm has been issued. Section 76-10-505 in part states: A person may not carry a loaded firearm in a posted prohibited area. If I am reading this correctly, a concealed firearm permit authorizes me to carry a loaded firearm in a posted prohibited area. Yes? or NO?
    As the statute is written. ONLY IF YOU ARE IN A VEHICLE!

  10. #10
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
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    I think what the OP and Grapeshot are missing here is the definition of "prohibited area".


    76-10-501. Definitions.
    As used in this part:
    ...
    (14) "Prohibited area" means a place where it is unlawful to discharge a firearm.
    I posted about this very topic a few fears ago, and here is my opinion. I grew up in the city of Lehi, Utah. Lehi has an ordinance making it unlawful to discharge a firearm in the city. If the city were to POST this prohibition, say near the signs that say "Welcome to Lehi", then openly carrying a loaded firearm would be unlawful in Lehi without a permit.

    Please keep in mind that loaded open carry is not unlawful in Utah, unless in a vehicle without consent, or on a public street. I am also of the opinion that 76-10-505 does not exist at all for permit holders. What I am saying here is that consent from the person in possession of a vehicle is not required when one has a permit from any State or County. Sure, the person in possession may make whatever rule they wish, but carrying without consent is not a violation of 76-10-505 if the person is permitted.

    Again, going on the definition provided above, I believe this was written to prohibit loaded carry in places where discharge is prohibited, which could be a lot of places. If the OP thought that "prohibited area" meant places like courtrooms, secure areas, and so forth, then I am certain he is mistaken.

    ...my opinion.


    Welcome to OCDO, sjmarsing!
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

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    Thanks!

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Cool Trying to be helpful

    You asked to see law and not rumors or opinions. The attached link will take you to the Utah Department of Public Safety, Bureau of Criminal Identification website showing the required course materials for the State of Utah Concealed Carry Permit Course. This course CAN NOT be taught online and I AM NOT attempting to do so. I am simply providing you with a link so that you can do your own research and to satisfy your request for copies of Utah Firearms Law.

    Link:http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/doc...TC01032011.pdf

    If, after reading the law you still have questions or concerns, PM one of us who is a BCI Certified Instructor and we will be happy to discuss it with you. Our goal on this forum is to attempt to provide not just our opinions and share our experiences, but to provide "competent" references for participants to study for themselves.

    Best of luck to you. And, if you have not already done so, I recommend you take the Utah Concealed Firearm Permit course. You will learn (or review) basic firearm safety, learn administrative procedures associated with the permit, and then study Utah and Federal Firearms Laws. This course is taught in person since reading a lot of legal language can be difficult for those who do not have a legal background or education and the instructor is there to make sense of it all for the students. And, having a copy of the course materials ahead of time allows you to prepare your questions in advance of the course.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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