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Seattle Attorney doesn't like the way laws punish people

marshaul

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Fairfax County, Virginia
When they come into our country without permission, and try their darnest to turn it into THEIR contry, that IS aggression.
I might agree if you changed "country" to "property". But I also believe we disagree on the nature and extent of an individual's proprietary claim on "his" country.

"Turning our country into their country" also isn't aggression, so long as their country doesn't do aggressive things to its citizens (like deprive them of their rights).

While it is possible to vote to use our government for aggression, most illegals do not vote, and so most government aggression-according-to-vote is accomplished by citizens.

I am also, as it happens, in favor of an extensive naturalization process before immigrants may take advantage of any privileges offered by our government, such as that of voting for representation in it.

I didn't call Rand Paul and his posse nuts, I merely said I disagree with them, specifically on matters of foreign policy :p
Quite right!

And I think you know as well as I, Democrats are just as much in support of driver licences in general as Republicans are.
Of course. I certainly didn't intend to suggest otherwise. I was merely noting the irony in your claim that it was Democrats (as though, to the exclusion of Republicans) who wish to restrict driving.

The core issue of this thread really has nothing to do with driver licences at all, it's an immigration issue.

Criminals are people too.
I agree with both statements, of course.

However, it would be nothing new for me to argue against the moral justifiability, or compatibility with right, of any enforcement of malum prohibitum laws.

Guess which category I place the illegality of immigrating without "permission" into? :p
 

sudden valley gunner

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Dec 13, 2008
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16,674
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Whatcom County
I am assuming that your tickets were received while in WA State.


How many times do I have to state my suspension wasn't due to tickets?

We discussed this before and I explicitly explained some of the circumstances no need to go into it again.

Now if the statist will quit dodging and insinuating and answer straight forward questions, other than competency cite why it is a privilege and not a right? I
 

sudden valley gunner

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Messages
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Whatcom County
Guess which category I place the illegality of immigrating without "permission" into? :p

I think if our government got rid of much of it's ridiculous laws against its "natural" born and "legal" immigrants such as mal prohibitum you mentioned and tax obligations this would uncloud this issue and we would find out how much of it really has to do with nationalization and xenophobia.
 

marshaul

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Messages
11,188
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Fairfax County, Virginia
I think if our government got rid of much of it's ridiculous laws against its "natural" born and "legal" immigrants such as mal prohibitum you mentioned and tax obligations this would uncloud this issue and we would find out how much of it really has to do with nationalization and xenophobia.

I suspect you're right.

I suspect this is also a reason that libertarians are more fervently opposed to the specific issue of handouts for illegals, while many Republican prefer to ignore this and focus on the general issue of immigration itself. At least a few of those Republicans recognize that ideological consistency would eventually undermine any perceived need for a strong response to "immigration". And this is unacceptable, since, while the tangible issues of crime and expense would be solved, it would do nothing about those... other fears. This way they can have their cake and eat it too.

The libertarian tends to make few cultural judgements not pertaining to respect of rights.
 
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sudden valley gunner

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Joined
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Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
To be fair, amlevin did concede driving to be a right, although we still have yet to reach consensus on what exactly that entails. :lol:

My bad, not meaning to specifically pick on Amlevin, sorry Amlevin if it seamed so.

Subject does touch a little at home for me lately since being forced to deal with it a lot and frustrated that every time I jump through all the hoops they want me too and think I am all good just to get slammed with it again.:banghead:
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
I suspect you're right.

I suspect this is also a reason that libertarians are more fervently opposed to the specific issue of handouts for illegals, while many Republican prefer to ignore this and focus on the general issue of immigration itself. At least a few of those Republicans recognize that ideological consistency would eventually undermine any perceived need for a strong response to "immigration". And this is unacceptable, since, while the tangible issues of crime and expense would be solved, it would do nothing about those... other fears. This way they can have their cake and eat it too.

The libertarian tends to make few cultural judgements not pertaining to respect of rights.

I suppose it really is why I like libertarians, I tend not to want to be connected to any party but those guys say more stuff I agree with than any other party. I am actually thinking of registering and voting this next election for the first time in my life and doing what MetalHead said.
 

Ruby

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Joined
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Messages
1,201
Location
Renton, Washington, USA
While we are on the subject of politics, of Republicans and Democrats and rights, let's not forget that it was the Republicans who brought us the Patriot Act, which gave the government the power to seriously violate our rights. I have no use for either party and lean towards Libertarian myself. We no longer have a government "of the people, by the people, for the people" and haven't had for a very long time. It is a government of the elite, by the elite, for the elite.

As for illegal aliens, I am for deporting them all. If they return, put them in jail or prison. I do not believe that a person begins their journey toward citizenship in another country by violating that country's laws. They have no rights, they are NOT CITIZENS. I am sick and tired of people coming into this country illegally, being supported by the citizens' tax dollars, and getting benefits that I, as a natural born citizen who has paid taxes all my life, cannot get. We do not allow people of other countries to come here illegally, why do we allow people who are south of the border come here simply because their country is adjacent to ours? Do you think Mexico would allow that kind of immigration from the U.S.? I think not.
 

Metalhead47

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
2,800
Location
South Whidbey, Washington, USA
As for illegal aliens, I am for deporting them all. If they return, put them in jail or prison. I do not believe that a person begins their journey toward citizenship in another country by violating that country's laws. They have no rights, they are NOT CITIZENS. I am sick and tired of people coming into this country illegally, being supported by the citizens' tax dollars, and getting benefits that I, as a natural born citizen who has paid taxes all my life, cannot get. We do not allow people of other countries to come here illegally, why do we allow people who are south of the border come here simply because their country is adjacent to ours? Do you think Mexico would allow that kind of immigration from the U.S.? I think not.

+1

When Americans (or any other nationality) move into another country without permission and start telling them how to do things, it's generally called what it is: Invasion & Occupation. :lol:
 

SavageOne

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
577
Location
SEMO, , USA
Sorry, I reject this distinction. You are free to keep it.

While I accept that government may exert some degree of control over our borders, I see no justification for the mere existence of a person (absent aggression) being "illegal". Yeah, I'm one of those Ron Paul nuts. :p

Your political analysis is no doubt correct, but it doesn't change the fact that y'all (Republicans) are telling people whether and how they can drive, whereas at least one Democrat is not, and nor would I. "Illegal aliens" are still people, whatever else they may be.


Could you perhaps clarify your position, in simplistic terms, for those of us who aren't SVG.

What term would you use to describe someone who chooses not to follow the prescribed route for citizenship or residency and chooses instead to simply come here and avail themselves the privileges available here? To what degree do you believe the government may exert control over our borders?
 

amlevin

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
Location
North of Seattle, Washington, USA
, let's not forget that it was the Republicans who brought us the Patriot Act, which gave the government the power to seriously violate our rights

Here's some facts on WHO gave us the Patriot Act.

98 Senators, Republican and Democrat, voted for the act. In the House, 60% of the Dem's voted for it. The Patriot act was bi-partisan.

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/patriotact20012006senatevote.shtml

It was reauthorized in 2006, again with enough Democrats voting in favor.

Wonder if we still would have had a "Patriot Act" if the Dem's were in control on 9/11? I'm going to guess that we still would have.
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
Notice Marshaul how none of the statist will ever prove or support why it isn't a right? Just that it isn't in their opinion. And then they retort to Brady campaign like tactics of attack when shown that it really isn't.

BigDave is famous for turning to personal attacks.

P.S. Most people with 1/2 a brain could tell you weren't twisting anybody's words just pointing out the fallacy in his reasoning.

The statists believe that there are no rights. The State grants privileges to whomever it chooses to do so. Rights cannot be revoked, modified or ignored. "Privileges" can and are. The Nazis withdrew privileges from the Jews. The Soviets from the White Russians and Ukraine. Oboobacare withdraws the 'privilege' of choice to all of us. Makes it very simple in the final analysis.
 

marshaul

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Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Could you perhaps clarify your position, in simplistic terms, for those of us who aren't SVG.

What term would you use to describe someone who chooses not to follow the prescribed route for citizenship or residency and chooses instead to simply come here and avail themselves the privileges available here? To what degree do you believe the government may exert control over our borders?

I don't see why I the question must be asked in terms which imply that EVERY illegal is a freeloader.

Statistically, a minority of illegal immigrants avail themselves of privileges offered by our government, as they are generally not eligible.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. The solution to these exceptions is to eliminate any means by which non-citizens may avail themselves to privileges. End handouts. You wouldn't propose punishing a citizen for accepting handouts, would you? My guess is you'd be content to simply end the handouts.

To whatever extent the government is taking my money and giving it to illegals, I blame the government for aggressing against my wallet, not an illegal for taking a buck (who wouldn't take free money?).

While I do not believe it is appropriate for government to deport people for the crime of simply "being" somewhere without permission, I would maintain naturalization processes.

This would mean that people who fail to follow procedure would stop being "illegal", they would simply have no claim to any government privileges. I can even see requiring them to pay upfront before utilizing government-subsidized services, like taking an action to civil court.

There is a strong tendency to take the factual wrongs of a tiny minority of illegals, and project them on every illegal.

Fact is, most illegals aren't freeloaders, they work hard for low pay (although some folks don't like that either, admittedly).

So, I say: if an illegal gets handouts, end them. If he commits a crime, jail or deport him. If he wishes to avail himself of privileges afforded by government, give him a naturalization procedure.

I fail to see how the entirely non-aggressive act of being in a place constitutes a malum in se offense.

Each malum in se offense argued as resulting from illegal immigration is something which illegal immigrants only may do, and is something which only a fraction of illegals commit, and as usual I refuse to concede to the moral justifiability of punishing the many for the crimes of the few.

You'll notice that every attempt to suggest illegal immigration is aggressive follows the following pattern: "I consider it aggression when illegals come here and..."

Well, whatever comes after than "and" very well might be aggression, but the fact that you need an "and" to reach the level of aggression should suggest that whatever precedes the "and" (i.e., merely coming here) is not itself an act of aggression.

To any who commit a "and", throw the book at them.

To answer your second question, I am inclined to allow government a presence at major border crossings. Noncitizens should be allowed to cross after a thorough search and identity check, and citizens should be allowed to cross unhindered, absent probable cause. I would have no ethical qualm with presence along remote parts of the border, although I question its practical utility.


By the way, in response to something someone said earlier: Mexico has sensible immigration policy, unlike the U.S.

They have a procedure with red tape, but most everyone who is willing to go through the tape will be allowed in. It's kind of akin to shall-issue licensure. There are very few illegals in Mexico since anyone who isn't already a criminal can immigrate legally, so being an illegal is, in Mexico, a damn good indicator that you're up to something illegal.

It works pretty well, but it's dependent on making the procure doable for those who wish to accomplish it.

The U.S., on the other hand, has notoriously hard-to-meet immigration standards. With the result that being "illegal" really, truly doesn't imply a thing about the suitability of a person for our society.


Not to mention that the very system of creating second-class people out of illegals disincentivizes assimilation, and incentivizes organized criminal activity (did you know MS -- and a slew of other hispanic gangs -- were started by Salvadoran ex-combatants who wanted to provide mutual security for each other against indigenous gangs? Is it surprising when young illegals, who are victimized by local gangs with no chance of legal backing, turn to starting their own gangs, and as a result eventually become radically anti-societal?)

Like nearly every instance of regulating malum prohibitum behavior, our immigration laws create a self-fulfilling prophecy of criminality.
 
Last edited:

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Here's some facts on WHO gave us the Patriot Act.

98 Senators, Republican and Democrat, voted for the act. In the House, 60% of the Dem's voted for it. The Patriot act was bi-partisan.

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/patriotact20012006senatevote.shtml

It was reauthorized in 2006, again with enough Democrats voting in favor.

Wonder if we still would have had a "Patriot Act" if the Dem's were in control on 9/11? I'm going to guess that we still would have.

Of course. This is why I'm not a democrat.

eye95 would say "moving on" now. :p
 

Guido

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
46
Location
Wilder, Idaho, USA
$10 wow you got lucky, I had one, paid $120 and no revoking of license, I guess because I paid for what I did.

Yeah the no seatbelt ticket is cheap at $10 but it would have been nice to know I was suspended before I had an interaction with a city police officer while I had a flat by the side of the road, luckily I wasn't behind the wheel when he stopped or the driving while suspended ticket and jail time would have really sucked.
 

Ruby

Regular Member
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
1,201
Location
Renton, Washington, USA
I don't see why I the question must be asked in terms which imply that EVERY illegal is a freeloader.

Statistically, a minority of illegal immigrants avail themselves of privileges offered by our government, as they are generally not eligible.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. The solution to these exceptions is to eliminate any means by which non-citizens may avail themselves to privileges. End handouts. You wouldn't propose punishing a citizen for accepting handouts, would you? My guess is you'd be content to simply end the handouts.

To whatever extent the government is taking my money and giving it to illegals, I blame the government for aggressing against my wallet, not an illegal for taking a buck (who wouldn't take free money?).

While I do not believe it is appropriate for government to deport people for the crime of simply "being" somewhere without permission, I would maintain naturalization processes.

This would mean that people who fail to follow procedure would stop being "illegal", they would simply have no claim to any government privileges. I can even see requiring them to pay upfront before utilizing government-subsidized services, like taking an action to civil court.

There is a strong tendency to take the factual wrongs of a tiny minority of illegals, and project them on every illegal.

Fact is, most illegals aren't freeloaders, they work hard for low pay (although some folks don't like that either, admittedly).

So, I say: if an illegal gets handouts, end them. If he commits a crime, jail or deport him. If he wishes to avail himself of privileges afforded by government, give him a naturalization procedure.

I fail to see how the entirely non-aggressive act of being in a place constitutes a malum in se offense.

Each malum in se offense argued as resulting from illegal immigration is something which illegal immigrants only may do, and is something which only a fraction of illegals commit, and as usual I refuse to concede to the moral justifiability of punishing the many for the crimes of the few.

You'll notice that every attempt to suggest illegal immigration is aggressive follows the following pattern: "I consider it aggression when illegals come here and..."

Well, whatever comes after than "and" very well might be aggression, but the fact that you need an "and" to reach the level of aggression should suggest that whatever precedes the "and" (i.e., merely coming here) is not itself an act of aggression.

To any who commit a "and", throw the book at them.

To answer your second question, I am inclined to allow government a presence at major border crossings. Noncitizens should be allowed to cross after a thorough search and identity check, and citizens should be allowed to cross unhindered, absent probable cause. I would have no ethical qualm with presence along remote parts of the border, although I question its practical utility.


By the way, in response to something someone said earlier: Mexico has sensible immigration policy, unlike the U.S.

They have a procedure with red tape, but most everyone who is willing to go through the tape will be allowed in. It's kind of akin to shall-issue licensure. There are very few illegals in Mexico since anyone who isn't already a criminal can immigrate legally, so being an illegal is, in Mexico, a damn good indicator that you're up to something illegal.

It works pretty well, but it's dependent on making the procure doable for those who wish to accomplish it.

The U.S., on the other hand, has notoriously hard-to-meet immigration standards. With the result that being "illegal" really, truly doesn't imply a thing about the suitability of a person for our society.


Not to mention that the very system of creating second-class people out of illegals disincentivizes assimilation, and incentivizes organized criminal activity (did you know MS -- and a slew of other hispanic gangs -- were started by Salvadoran ex-combatants who wanted to provide mutual security for each other against indigenous gangs? Is it surprising when young illegals, who are victimized by local gangs with no chance of legal backing, turn to starting their own gangs, and as a result eventually become radically anti-societal?)

Like nearly every instance of regulating malum prohibitum behavior, our immigration laws create a self-fulfilling prophecy of criminality.


We already have a naturalization process in place. Say whatever you want, however you want, but an illegal alien is an illegal alien and has no right to be in this country. What is the point of having an immigration system in place if we make exceptions for a certain group of people? What value is US citizenship if everyone has to follow the rules except for a certain group of people? Kind of makes the citizenship process for those outside the certain group of people rather meaningless, doesn't it? Sounds like selective rights, selective democracy to me. The Constitution I have read and believe in extends rights and priviledges and democracy to all, not just a selected group of people. The process by which one becomes a citizen is (should be) the same for everyone.

This is just one of many reasons we find ourselves in our current situation. When you make so many exceptions to the rule, after a while what is the point of having a rule in the first place? The fabic of society has been rent asunder, the "justice" system is a joke since justice is for sale, and morals are non existent. Some have managed to maintain some integrity; I can't tell you the people I have had just lately suggest that I do something, cheat a little, to gain a temporary financial advantage. Our society being what it is, we have the government we deserve, believe it or not. The government is corrupt because the society in which it exists is corrupt. Not everybody is corrupt and not everyone in government is corrupt, but there are enough to have made one hell of an impact. There is a day of reckoning approaching; it's obvious to me that things can't go on the way they have been. Perhaps the uprisings in the middle east are just the beginning. The desire for freedom and justice (fairness) are inherent in almost all human beings. I hope we can bring back our republic.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
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Fairfax County, Virginia
We already have a naturalization process in place. Say whatever you want, however you want, but an illegal alien is an illegal alien and has no right to be in this country. What is the point of having an immigration system in place if we make exceptions for a certain group of people? What value is US citizenship if everyone has to follow the rules except for a certain group of people? Kind of makes the citizenship process for those outside the certain group of people rather meaningless, doesn't it? Sounds like selective rights, selective democracy to me. The Constitution I have read and believe in extends rights and priviledges and democracy to all, not just a selected group of people. The process by which one becomes a citizen is (should be) the same for everyone.

Man, I never said anything about certain groups of people. Read my post again, or something.
 

Gunslinger

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
Messages
3,853
Location
Free, Colorado, USA
I don't see why I the question must be asked in terms which imply that EVERY illegal is a freeloader.

Statistically, a minority of illegal immigrants avail themselves of privileges offered by our government, as they are generally not eligible.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. The solution to these exceptions is to eliminate any means by which non-citizens may avail themselves to privileges. End handouts. You wouldn't propose punishing a citizen for accepting handouts, would you? My guess is you'd be content to simply end the handouts.

To whatever extent the government is taking my money and giving it to illegals, I blame the government for aggressing against my wallet, not an illegal for taking a buck (who wouldn't take free money?).

While I do not believe it is appropriate for government to deport people for the crime of simply "being" somewhere without permission, I would maintain naturalization processes.

This would mean that people who fail to follow procedure would stop being "illegal", they would simply have no claim to any government privileges. I can even see requiring them to pay upfront before utilizing government-subsidized services, like taking an action to civil court.

There is a strong tendency to take the factual wrongs of a tiny minority of illegals, and project them on every illegal.

Fact is, most illegals aren't freeloaders, they work hard for low pay (although some folks don't like that either, admittedly).

So, I say: if an illegal gets handouts, end them. If he commits a crime, jail or deport him. If he wishes to avail himself of privileges afforded by government, give him a naturalization procedure.

I fail to see how the entirely non-aggressive act of being in a place constitutes a malum in se offense.

Each malum in se offense argued as resulting from illegal immigration is something which illegal immigrants only may do, and is something which only a fraction of illegals commit, and as usual I refuse to concede to the moral justifiability of punishing the many for the crimes of the few.

You'll notice that every attempt to suggest illegal immigration is aggressive follows the following pattern: "I consider it aggression when illegals come here and..."

Well, whatever comes after than "and" very well might be aggression, but the fact that you need an "and" to reach the level of aggression should suggest that whatever precedes the "and" (i.e., merely coming here) is not itself an act of aggression.

To any who commit a "and", throw the book at them.

To answer your second question, I am inclined to allow government a presence at major border crossings. Noncitizens should be allowed to cross after a thorough search and identity check, and citizens should be allowed to cross unhindered, absent probable cause. I would have no ethical qualm with presence along remote parts of the border, although I question its practical utility.


By the way, in response to something someone said earlier: Mexico has sensible immigration policy, unlike the U.S.

They have a procedure with red tape, but most everyone who is willing to go through the tape will be allowed in. It's kind of akin to shall-issue licensure. There are very few illegals in Mexico since anyone who isn't already a criminal can immigrate legally, so being an illegal is, in Mexico, a damn good indicator that you're up to something illegal.

It works pretty well, but it's dependent on making the procure doable for those who wish to accomplish it.

The U.S., on the other hand, has notoriously hard-to-meet immigration standards. With the result that being "illegal" really, truly doesn't imply a thing about the suitability of a person for our society.


Not to mention that the very system of creating second-class people out of illegals disincentivizes assimilation, and incentivizes organized criminal activity (did you know MS -- and a slew of other hispanic gangs -- were started by Salvadoran ex-combatants who wanted to provide mutual security for each other against indigenous gangs? Is it surprising when young illegals, who are victimized by local gangs with no chance of legal backing, turn to starting their own gangs, and as a result eventually become radically anti-societal?)

Like nearly every instance of regulating malum prohibitum behavior, our immigration laws create a self-fulfilling prophecy of criminality.

While I don't agree completely on all points, one of the best overall assessments of the illegal immigrant situation I've read.

"To whatever extent the government is taking my money and giving it to illegals, I blame the government for aggressing against my wallet, not an illegal for taking a buck (who wouldn't take free money?)."

100% on target.
 
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