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Thread: Permission to carry on prohibited premises

  1. #1
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Permission to carry on prohibited premises

    I'm looking to draft a "permission slip" to allow me to open carry on a prohibited premises (I have no CPL). Just wondering how you guys think it should be worded. I know there was gonna be an open carry event at a bowling alley that had a liquor license and that they were giving permission slips to those who did not have a CPL, if anyone knew how they had it written it would be appreciated. Thanks everyone, carry on!
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    I would suggest it have a signature of a owner / property manager and clearly state that you John Smith are given permission to carry a properly holstered pistol on said property. Also be aware that if the business leases their store front from a landlord you may also need their permission also.

    Good luck on this, keep us informed as things move forward. My personal experience is most businesses are a little squeamish unless they really, really, know you well when it comes down to putting something in writing.

  3. #3
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    You can use this as a template, I am just typing this on the fly... So process it on Microsoft Word or other...

    To Whom It May Concern,

    I John Smith, Owner (or an agent of the owner, such as a General Manager), of General Store XXX give permission for Joseph Smith to Openly Carry a holstered pistol or revolver on this property at 123 Main St, Capital City, USA.

    As permitted by MCL 750.234d
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (d) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    I Joseph Smith will obey all State and Federal Firearm laws, while both on this property and abroad. My pistol or revolver will not leave its holster while in public unless imminent threat of loss of life, limb, or sexual penetration is presented against myself or someone within my immediate area. As described by state law. MCL 780.951. Adding also to this contract I will always be on best behavior, and be courteous while on the property.

    This contract shall keep legal force for Three (3) years from the date it is signed, or until either participating party has decided to void this contract. If either participating party decides to void this contract before it expires that party shall notify the other party of this contract as soon as possible.

    John Smith
    Property Land Line (555) 555-5555
    123 Main St.
    Capital City, USA

    X_____________________________ 05 March 2011

    Joseph Smith
    Best Contact # (555) 555-1212
    123 Fake St
    Capital City, USA
    DL# S 123 456 789 101

    X______________________________ 05 March 2011

    I hope this helps!!! Anyone feel free to use it! Unless you can make money off of it, I want 60%
    ETA
    ***IANAL*** (I Am Not A Lawyer)
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 03-06-2011 at 04:40 AM.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  4. #4
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    You can use this as a template, I am just typing this on the fly... So process it on Microsoft Word or other...

    To Whom It May Concern,

    I John Smith, Owner (or an agent of the owner, such as a General Manager), of General Store XXX give permission for Joseph Smith to Openly Carry a holstered pistol or revolver on this property at 123 Main St, Capital City, USA.

    As permitted by MCL 750.234d
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (d) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    I Joseph Smith will obey all State and Federal Firearm laws, while both on this property and abroad. My pistol or revolver will not leave its holster while in public unless imminent threat of loss of life, limb, or sexual penetration is presented against myself or someone within my immediate area. As described by state law. MCL 780.951. Adding also to this contract I will always be on best behavior, and be courteous while on the property.

    This contract shall keep legal force for Three (3) years from the date it is signed, or until either participating party has decided to void this contract. If either participating party decides to void this contract before it expires that party shall notify the other party of this contract as soon as possible.

    John Smith
    Property Land Line (555) 555-5555
    123 Main St.
    Capital City, USA

    X_____________________________ 05 March 2011

    Joseph Smith
    Best Contact # (555) 555-1212
    123 Fake St
    Capital City, USA
    DL# S 123 456 789 101

    X______________________________ 05 March 2011


    I hope this helps!!! Anyone feel free to use it! Unless you can make money off of it, I want 60%
    Oh and yes I would type it up. I would first print off a copy of this template, and use it to bring up your talking points. Ask to speak to the owner, or someone whom is authorized to speak on his behalf. Show them the template. Ask them what concerns they may have. Then ask for their permission. Also ask if there is anything specifics they would like added to the contract. Then take their information, as well as a business card. If they do not have a business card make sure you write down all information that you will need to put on the contract. Point out that none of there personal information will be on the contract, only there name, business phone number, and address, which are all public information. But you ARE providing them with some personal information of your own for their peace of mind. You can even leave them with a copy of it.

    Also let them know you will only be patronizing places that respect your 2A rights. Make sure to set up a date/time with them to sign the actual contract. Make sure you fill out every detail of the contract perfectly. Even type the date on them, so all your i's are dotted and t's crossed. And make two copies, one for you and one for them. Also let them know IF THEY WANT, you will post that their business is pro 2A, and friendly, and spread the word, so to help their sales, and their bottom line.

    Again I hope this helps!

    ETA
    ***IANAL*** (I Am Not A Lawyer)
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 03-06-2011 at 04:39 AM.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  5. #5
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    Oh and yes I would type it up. I would first print off a copy of this template, and use it to bring up your talking points. Ask to speak to the owner, or someone whom is authorized to speak on his behalf. Show them the template. Ask them what concerns they may have. Then ask for their permission. Also ask if there is anything specifics they would like added to the contract. Then take their information, as well as a business card. If they do not have a business card make sure you write down all information that you will need to put on the contract. Point out that none of there personal information will be on the contract, only there name, business phone number, and address, which are all public information. But you ARE providing them with some personal information of your own for their peace of mind. You can even leave them with a copy of it.

    Also let them know you will only be patronizing places that respect your 2A rights. Make sure to set up a date/time with them to sign the actual contract. Make sure you fill out every detail of the contract perfectly. Even type the date on them, so all your i's are dotted and t's crossed. And make two copies, one for you and one for them. Also let them know IF THEY WANT, you will post that their business is pro 2A, and friendly, and spread the word, so to help their sales, and their bottom line.

    Again I hope this helps!
    Thank you, I plan on changing some of it but I do like it a lot.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  6. #6
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    To Whom It May Concern,

    I John Smith, Owner (or an agent of the owner, such as a General Manager), of General Store XXX give permission for Joseph Smith to possess and carry a firearm on this premises at 123 Main St, Capital City, USA.

    As permitted by MCL 750.234d
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (d) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    I Joseph Smith will obey all State and Federal Firearm laws, while both on this property. My firearm will not leave its holster unless allowed by MCL 780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions. Adding also to this contract, I will always be kind, and courteous while on the premises.

    This contract shall keep legal force for Three (3) years from the date it is signed, or until either participating party has decided to void this contract. If either participating party decides to void this contract before it expires, that party shall notify the other party of this contract as soon as possible and cannot be completely voided until both parties are fully aware.

    John Smith
    Property Land Line (555) 555-5555
    123 Main St.
    Capital City, USA

    X_____________________________ 05 March 2011

    Joseph Smith
    Best Contact # (555) 555-1212
    123 Fake St
    Capital City, USA
    bsemail@cantbsabser.net
    X______________________________ 05 March 2011



    Ok here's my version. I changed some words mainly to match what is said in the law.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  7. #7
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    For marketing reasons, it sounds way better the other way. I wouldn't change it other than to personalize it. It lists the applicable laws on the sheet, mind you, you will both keep a copy. The way you have it worded, it is unlikely to get anyone to sign it. Just my $0.02, this is the real world and perception is EVERYTHING, ergo wording is everything.

    ETA
    ***IANAL*** (I Am Not A Lawyer)
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 03-06-2011 at 04:39 AM.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  8. #8
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastmeyers View Post
    For marketing reasons, it sounds way better the other way. I wouldn't change it other than to personalize it. It lists the applicable laws on the sheet, mind you, you will both keep a copy. The way you have it worded, it is unlikely to get anyone to sign it. Just my $0.02, this is the real world and perception is EVERYTHING, ergo wording is everything.
    Well the purpose of this contract, for me, would be having already talk to the person about carrying there and them just signing.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  9. #9
    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    Well the purpose of this contract, for me, would be having already talk to the person about carrying there and them just signing.


    I get that. But you may want to add to that list. Also you may need to persuade someone to agree with you. The way I wrote it, opens it up for conversation, and you can answer any questions they have. The way you wrote it (I am being honest, not rude) just makes you sound trigger happy, even if you are not, it may come across this way, so you are more likely to get a, NO I am not interested sorry, with yours, but questions with mine. Mine was purposely written so its simple, lists the law, and mentions nothing about Deadly Force. Which will automatically close more doors than you think. Also don't change how the contract is canceled part, it is implied that you would have to be notified, but by making it more specific than it needs to be, you make it sound like you are adding an extra step for them, even if you are not.

    If someone is doing a favor for you, you want it to be easy for them, just a signature, thats it. Also don't put an email address on it, it will be a piece of paper, no link to click, a phone number is fine. Also leave the DL# on there because this will give them the, peace of mind that IF something happens they can show their copy of the contract to LE, even if we both know it wont come to that.

    Long story short: Don't change anything other than the names, address, and such. Trust me, I have studied factors that this contract plays into with the real world. As well as been in the real world for some time. The way you have written it, no one will want to sign it just because they will feel they are being left liable. Please trust me and do not change this template, it is good how it is, my Resum is quite good. Trust is key.

    ETA
    ***IANAL*** (I Am Not A Lawyer)
    Last edited by eastmeyers; 03-06-2011 at 04:42 AM.
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

    "Then said he to them, But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his sack: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
    Luke 22:36
    God Bless

  10. #10
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    I wrote something very similar to the below elsewhere, and think it may be useful advice for you. Use it for initially talking to an owner/manager about the issue and the written permission you are asking for:

    When permission to open carry is less of a "question" and more of a mere "confirmation", incident to doing business with them, owners/managers may be more inclined to just "go with the flow". Example (the scenario is you are on the phone, because usually if you are asking permission beforehand it means you can't step foot on the property without it):

    (Record the phone conversation. Yes, it is legal to do so in Michigan without informing the other party as long as you are a party to the conversation.)

    Just the direct question:

    You: "May I carry my gun in your business, and will you sign a permission slip for it?"

    Owner/Manager: "No." (The usual response by an unsure person to an "unusual" question they've probably never had to answer before.)



    Perhaps a more successful approach:

    You: "Hi, this is Dan M. [be sure to state your name] . . . [Discuss what you're looking for, if their business provides it, they have something in stock, prices, etc. . . . establish in their mind that you are a potential customer.]

    Owner/Manager: [Discusses with you what you are looking for.]

    You: Great! I think you have EXACTLY what I'm looking for. [If possible and appropriate, get them to hold an item for you, make an appointment for you, or whatever other thing can cause a psychological commitment in their mind to accepting you in their business.]

    Owner/Manager: Glad you called. Sure we'll [hold that item in stock, make an appointment, etc.] for you!

    You: Oh, by the way, I carry a gun in accordance with the law and all the businesses I frequent are OK with lawful carry. Since you happen to have a liquor license, I technically have to ask your permission to carry on your property. Are you OK with that while I [insert the business you are potentially going to do with them]?

    Owner/Manager: Sure, I'm fine with that.

    I think the second approach is more probable to be successful, since you've set up in the owner/manager's mind that you are a customer wanting to do business, other businesses don't have a problem with your carry, and the permission to carry is just a mere technicality in the law, which is what it really is. Most people just "go with the flow", and sometimes it is helpful to psychologically guide folks into the "flow".

    Have this recorded, and show up at the business with a written permission for them to sign. Explain that the written permission is just something for CYA purposes because you have heard of misunderstandings happening with the police.
    Last edited by DanM; 03-06-2011 at 11:51 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  11. #11
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I wrote something very similar to the below elsewhere, and think it may be useful advice for you. Use it for initially talking to an owner/manager about the issue and the written permission you are asking for:

    When permission to open carry is less of a "question" and more of a mere "confirmation", incident to doing business with them, owners/managers may be more inclined to just "go with the flow". Example (the scenario is you are on the phone, because usually if you are asking permission beforehand it means you can't step foot on the property without it):

    (Record the phone conversation. Yes, it is legal to do so in Michigan without informing the other party as long as you are a party to the conversation.)

    Just the direct question:

    You: "May I carry my gun in your business, and will you sign a permission slip for it?"

    Owner/Manager: "No." (The usual response by an unsure person to an "unusual" question they've probably never had to answer before.)



    Perhaps a more successful approach:

    You: "Hi, this is Dan M. [be sure to state your name] . . . [Discuss what you're looking for, if their business provides it, they have something in stock, prices, etc. . . . establish in their mind that you are a potential customer.]

    Owner/Manager: [Discusses with you what you are looking for.]

    You: Great! I think you have EXACTLY what I'm looking for. [If possible and appropriate, get them to hold an item for you, make an appointment for you, or whatever other thing can cause a psychological commitment in their mind to accepting you in their business.]

    Owner/Manager: Glad you called. Sure we'll [hold that item in stock, make an appointment, etc.] for you!

    You: Oh, by the way, I carry a gun in accordance with the law and all the businesses I frequent are OK with lawful carry. Since you happen to have a liquor license, I technically have to ask your permission to carry on your property. Are you OK with that while I [insert the business you are potentially going to do with them]?

    Owner/Manager: Sure, I'm fine with that.

    I think the second approach is more probable to be successful, since you've set up in the owner/manager's mind that you are a customer wanting to do business, other businesses don't have a problem with your carry, and the permission to carry is just a mere technicality in the law, which is what it really is. Most people just "go with the flow", and sometimes it is helpful to psychologically guide folks into the "flow".

    Have this recorded, and show up at the business with a written permission for them to sign. Explain that the written permission is just something for CYA purposes because you have heard of misunderstandings happening with the police.
    Thanks I think I saw that in another thread but I wasn't sure which one and exactly how you had said to do it.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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