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Thread: Fairfax County Police Video - How they respond to "person with a gun" calls

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Fairfax County Police Video - How they respond to "person with a gun" calls

    http://vaguninfo.com/videos/vcdl_mee...n_with_gun.htm

    I watched less than half of it and have had enough.

    First, the PD had a contingent of "Nice Guys" there to BS everyone.

    Looked like there was a lot of kissing up to the Cop.

    Then there was a spirited discussion about how to deal with a police encounter with VCDL members talking about OC'ing , being stopped and how they should show their permit to the officer.

    One lady said "I'm not doing anything wrong and I have a permit for this gun"...really! I wonder where she got that "Permit for that gun"?

    At least Ed brought up the fact that the PD was asking for permits from OC'ers.


    Enough of that useless meeting!
    Last edited by peter nap; 03-05-2011 at 04:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    http://vaguninfo.com/videos/vcdl_mee...n_with_gun.htm

    I watched less than half of it and have had enough.

    First, the PD had a contingent of "Nice Guys" there to BS everyone.

    Looked like there was a lot of kissing up to the Cop.

    Then there was a spirited discussion about how to deal with a police encounter with VCDL members talking about OC'ing , being stopped and how they should show their permit to the officer.

    One lady said "I'm not doing anything wrong and I have a permit for this gun"...really! I wonder where she got that "Permit for that gun"?

    At least Ed brought up the fact that the PD was asking for permits from OC'ers.


    Enough of that useless meeting!
    Maybe PVC will do the same for other VCDL meetings! I bet their feet were tired from all that dancing around the questions!
    Last edited by All American Nightmare; 03-05-2011 at 04:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xdm guy View Post
    Maybe PVC will do the same for other VCDL meetings!
    Doing this--how to handle police encounters--was discussed at a VCDL meeting about four years ago.

    A board member who is also an attorney happened to be there and said it was a bad idea because it amounted to VCDL giving legal advice. It went no further as far as I know. I think, done carefully to avoid the impression of giving legal advice, it could be done.

    The next problem though is the wide range of opinions about police existing within VCDL. At the first VCDL meeting after the Tony's Incident hit the press, at least one VCDL member was vocally opposed to the VCDL members who did not cooperate with police to the level he deemed appropriate. (Side Notes: The Tony's Incident was an OCDO gathering of people some or most of who were incidentally also VCDL members. And, according to the record, the members cooperated with the police to the full extent required by our laws.) So, Philip has to walk a bit of a line to not alienate VCDL members who feel the police are owed more than other members might think.

    Personally, I think practicing scenarios is a good thing. Drilling/practice is the way to go. If not really feasible for VCDL to host it, perhaps a local group of OCDOers can get together and practice. Say, three or four guys get together on an evening or weekend afternoon for an hour or so. Start out easy, switch roles back and forth. Then gradually ratchet up the intensity. While keeping some flexibility for members who want to go along more with police demands.

    I would be happy to attend something local. I cannot host for lack of venue, but would be happy to attend.
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-05-2011 at 04:05 PM.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    The officers are STILL saying 'I want to see an ID; do you have a permit' for OC-ers, EVEN THOUGH they were just reminded that an ID for a non-traffic stop is NOT required and a CHL for OC is NOT pertinent.

    Yet they still say 'we might ask to see an ID'. WHY? Because some people don't know the law and they're hoping to TRICK THEM by LYING implicitly into showing ID. But GUESS WHAT? The LEO is supposed to know the law and yet even this knowledgeable trainer is talking about seeing ID. They must be retarded.

    Of course, we know they are not retarded. They are telling us (even as we tell them they can't ask) they will STILL ask for ID all the while telling us they are training officers in the law. It's a waste of time doing this kind of training and meeting. They say one thing and do another. They treat civilians as perps and predators.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Man, even the questioners are ignorant.

    Justifying asking a name without RAS, is not a legal stop. But they are justifying it in order to gather info to solve a "multiple rape" (in the scenario). If you think about it all surveillance, questioning of civilians if done exhaustively might turn up criminal intent but they're not allowed to do it because that is a FISHING EXPEDITION. If all people would just say 'no' it would prevent non-RAS stops.

    When "multiple rape" example didn't get the answer he wanted he turns to the old 'perv taking pics of children' and got the 'OK' he wanted from the woman. IT'S STILL FISHING and not a legal stop.

    But here we see even supposedly knowledgeable OC-ers are agreeing to talk to the cops in these scenarios.

    Saying it's OK to ask questions and get names is the same thing as random illegal wiretapping and random GPS monitoring of cars and random video monitoring, but we allow it because it's a voluntary stop AND WE DON'T KNOW it's voluntary because the LEOs try not to tell us (or keep it from us).

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    I thought it wasn't that bad, the lady obviously didn't understand some of the aspects of open carry and not having to have a permit, and sounded like she was very inexperienced with carrying and dealing with officers. But I still think the meeting was good for both sides to see the others point of view, and to give the citizens the chance to ask questions of the officers.

    Ed Levine and Philip were great in this meeting. The scenarios presented towards the end are useful and I encourage others to watch.
    Last edited by Jonesy; 03-05-2011 at 04:54 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Doing this--how to handle police encounters--was discussed at a VCDL meeting about four years ago.

    A board member who is also an attorney happened to be there and said it was a bad idea because it amounted to VCDL giving legal advice. It went no further as far as I know. I think, done carefully to avoid the impression of giving legal advice, it could be done.

    The next problem though is the wide range of opinions about police existing within VCDL. At the first VCDL meeting after the Tony's Incident hit the press, at least one VCDL member was vocally opposed to the VCDL members who did not cooperate with police to the level he deemed appropriate. (Side Notes: The Tony's Incident was an OCDO gathering of people some or most of who were incidentally also VCDL members. And, according to the record, the members cooperated with the police to the full extent required by our laws.) So, Philip has to walk a bit of a line to not alienate VCDL members who feel the police are owed more than other members might think.

    Personally, I think practicing scenarios is a good thing. Drilling/practice is the way to go. If not really feasible for VCDL to host it, perhaps a local group of OCDOers can get together and practice. Say, three or four guys get together on an evening or weekend afternoon for an hour or so. Start out easy, switch roles back and forth. Then gradually ratchet up the intensity. While keeping some flexibility for members who want to go along more with police demands.

    I would be happy to attend something local. I cannot host for lack of venue, but would be happy to attend.
    Excellent idea. I'd be interested. I'd also help to develop scenario outlines in advance from which to work.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    The next problem though is the wide range of opinions about police existing within VCDL. ........ So, Philip has to walk a bit of a line to not alienate VCDL members who feel the police are owed more than other members might think.
    Speaking not for VCDL, but as a member -

    There is an ongoing effort to promote respect and knowledge from both groups - LEA and VCDL. The effort is worth it, albeit the gains may seem small sometimes. A seminar was held with Fairfax PD and others are anticipated. Not having "command authority" requires some degree of cooperation and mutual, perceived benefit. A lot of thought goes into that.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    They talk a lot about mutual respect and not treating legal residents like second class citizens, but you will never find a cop who stops a guy OC-ing walking his dog:

    "Sir, I'm not detaining you, there is no RAS, but I'd like to ask you a question and you don't have to answer it and you are free to go", then ask name or where the person is going (duh, walking dog).

    In that case I -might- be inclined to tell him, since he's not lying to me or trying to trip me up or make me -think- I'm being detained.

    Don't make the OC-er think he's being detained. Don't ask for ID if you have no RAS and it's non-traffic stop. Don't ask an OC for their permit. Period.

    WE ARE NOT the bad guys.

    Edit to add: The reason they lie and ask things they can't is because they want to fish. They figure that 10 innocent civilians being lied to is OK if they can arrest one bad guy. BUT that's the opposite of 'innocent until proven guilty' and 'it's better for 10 BGs to go free than to imprison one innocent person'. Neither of these important elements to a free society means anything to LE. They are trained to lie and 'fish' and then look you in the eye and say they're not lying or fishing. That's my beef. It comes from the TOP.
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 03-05-2011 at 04:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    They talk a lot about mutual respect and not treating legal residents like second class citizens, but you will never find a cop who stops a guy OC-ing walking his dog:

    "Sir, I'm not detaining you, there is no RAS, but I'd like to ask you a question and you don't have to answer it and you are free to go", then ask name or where the person is going (duh, walking dog).

    In that case I -might- be inclined to tell him, since he's not lying to me or trying to trip me up or make me -think- I'm being detained.

    Don't make the OC-er think he's being detained. Don't ask for ID if you have no RAS and it's non-traffic stop. Don't ask an OC for their permit. Period.

    WE ARE NOT the bad guys.
    +1

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    Excellent idea. I'd be interested. I'd also help to develop scenario outlines in advance from which to work.

    It's in the works down here. Not affiliated with VCDL but the idea is the best Hands on program I've seen discussed. More on that later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    SNIP Don't make the OC-er think he's being detained. Don't ask for ID if you have no RAS and it's non-traffic stop. Don't ask an OC for their permit. Period...
    I'm just going to use that quote to illustrate one tiny little thing. Nothing more.

    We are up against an experienced adversary.* Never forget, they do this all day long, every day of the week. They are not morons. No matter what else you think of them, never under-estimate them.

    In support of this, I am going to point out something that occurred during the meeting. One woman directed to the short-statured cop a comment or question to the effect that she wants the cop to tell her where to place her hands and what to do. The cop very carefully avoided that comment despite the woman having the floor and the cop's attention being fully on her.

    Why did he avoid that? I'm betting because he knew that as soon as the cop starts giving directions about what to do and where to place hands, it becomes a detention.

    They know the rules. They know the game. And, they know how to twist the rules and use loopholes in the rules and system to their advantage. They play the game all day long. It would be more surprising if they did not know all the angles inside out and backwards. Never underestimate them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tess View Post
    Excellent idea. I'd be interested. I'd also help to develop scenario outlines in advance from which to work.
    PM on the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    The officers are STILL saying 'I want to see an ID; do you have a permit' for OC-ers, EVEN THOUGH they were just reminded that an ID for a non-traffic stop is NOT required and a CHL for OC is NOT pertinent.

    Yet they still say 'we might ask to see an ID'. WHY? Because some people don't know the law and they're hoping to TRICK THEM by LYING implicitly into showing ID. But GUESS WHAT? The LEO is supposed to know the law and yet even this knowledgeable trainer is talking about seeing ID. They must be retarded.

    Of course, we know they are not retarded. They are telling us (even as we tell them they can't ask) they will STILL ask for ID all the while telling us they are training officers in the law. It's a waste of time doing this kind of training and meeting. They say one thing and do another. They treat civilians as perps and predators.
    They are not retarded, they are doing there job. They can ask for id any time they want, just like they can approach you and ask voluntary questions any time they want. RAS and probable cause are not needed for voluntary encounters. No need to get all worked up, just know your rights and act accordingly.

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    It was unfortunate that it seems to me that most people there wanted to sing their song instead of letting the LEOs talk about what they came to talk about. The questions maybe could have been saved for after. The points made have been discussed many times and it would have been nice to hear what was going to be said by the LEOs rather then it seeming to turn into a attack the cops about everything they have done wrong, esp. when the cops weren't present for Joe Shmo's unhappy police encounter. It is very situational based. It seems that more could have been learned if some listening had occurred. Just my opinion. I also think the police have a role in our society they do and should investigate issues, just because. They should not violate a persons rights and they should not be above the letter of the law, but I would not have an issue with a police presence, as long as they understand that if I tell them to go jump in a lake and walk off, the 'voluntary encounter' is over.

    The police exist in our society because there are people who don't have the same mores that I do. There are people (loosely) who think nothing of you, your rights, your morality, your property, your daughter's virginity. I would rather a cop encounter this person rather than myself, but it is why I carry. I am taking responsibility for myself.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    I would be happy to attend something local. I cannot host for lack of venue, but would be happy to attend.
    I am trying to set something up for Loudoun & Leesburg
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    The officers are STILL saying 'I want to see an ID; do you have a permit' for OC-ers, EVEN THOUGH they were just reminded that an ID for a non-traffic stop is NOT required and a CHL for OC is NOT pertinent.
    And I specifically asked.. what if I keep on walking or walk away. I was told that would be the end of the encounter and both Captains agreed.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    And I specifically asked.. what if I keep on walking or walk away. I was told that would be the end of the encounter and both Captains agreed.
    Great presentation. I'm being a little nit-picky. What I'm getting at and what is touched on above is they are ALL playing 'the game', which they play every day, all day. It's try to trip up the BG, try to get their 'prey' to disclose something. They just can't seem to stop playing it when they know they've got a lawful person who is really on their side.

    And despite what the LEO said, I seriously doubt he'd let it go if you were not detained and tried to walk...he'd keep talking and try to persuade you. He might even say (later) 'the subject tried to walk off when I was questioning him, so I had to put cuffs on him for his own protection'.

    What I learned is even when being filmed, even when you have only the 'good guys' among LEOs, they are still cagey, still ask what they know isn't legally required. We and they both know it and they seem to not get it, but it's a sham - what it does is put the citizen in the position to decline and start citing his rights, which is the big PiB about such stops and where they insert their 'one-upmanship' to try and 'win' the encounter even knowing they're in the wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Great presentation. I'm being a little nit-picky. What I'm getting at and what is touched on above is they are ALL playing 'the game', which they play every day, all day. It's try to trip up the BG, try to get their 'prey' to disclose something. They just can't seem to stop playing it when they know they've got a lawful person who is really on their side.

    And despite what the LEO said, I seriously doubt he'd let it go if you were not detained and tried to walk...he'd keep talking and try to persuade you. He might even say (later) 'the subject tried to walk off when I was questioning him, so I had to put cuffs on him for his own protection'.

    What I learned is even when being filmed, even when you have only the 'good guys' among LEOs, they are still cagey, still ask what they know isn't legally required. We and they both know it and they seem to not get it, but it's a sham - what it does is put the citizen in the position to decline and start citing his rights, which is the big PiB about such stops and where they insert their 'one-upmanship' to try and 'win' the encounter even knowing they're in the wrong.
    There is a certain point being made here that many will recognize and to which they will attest to from personal experience. It is in part the "us vs them" and part "guilty until proven innocent" that is practice by some LEOs. It should not be so difficult to recognize the GGs from the BGs.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    It was unfortunate that it seems to me that most people there wanted to sing their song instead of letting the LEOs talk about what they came to talk about. The questions maybe could have been saved for after. The points made have been discussed many times and it would have been nice to hear what was going to be said by the LEOs rather then it seeming to turn into a attack the cops about everything they have done wrong, esp. when the cops weren't present for Joe Shmo's unhappy police encounter. It is very situational based. It seems that more could have been learned if some listening had occurred. Just my opinion. I also think the police have a role in our society they do and should investigate issues, just because. They should not violate a persons rights and they should not be above the letter of the law, but I would not have an issue with a police presence, as long as they understand that if I tell them to go jump in a lake and walk off, the 'voluntary encounter' is over.

    The police exist in our society because there are people who don't have the same mores that I do. There are people (loosely) who think nothing of you, your rights, your morality, your property, your daughter's virginity. I would rather a cop encounter this person rather than myself, but it is why I carry. I am taking responsibility for myself.
    At the meeting I went to, the police said what they wanted to and then asked for questions. Usually, when you ask for questions, you're done talking and are ready to answer questions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    And I specifically asked.. what if I keep on walking or walk away. I was told that would be the end of the encounter and both Captains agreed.
    Yeah, right. I tooooootally believe them. We all saw how short cop completely ignored Philip's express refused consent to a consensual encounter. If I recall, Philip even made to start walking again, and the cop interjected, "It will only take a minute."

    Philip again expressly refused consent to a consensual encounter. Short cop then offered him a ride. Which caused great laughter and lite moment; but totally obscured the fact that the cop, right in front of our eyes, ignored Philips express refusals to a consensual encounter.

    As I recall, the case law does not require one to keep walking as the only manifestation of refused consent accepted by the courts.

    This is simply cop-games to play loose and fast and exploit a supposed loophole in 4A law, rather than actually respect people's rights.

    I got five dollars that says the Capt's were just giving a theoretical answer to a hypothetical question.
    Last edited by Citizen; 03-06-2011 at 05:36 PM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Yeah, right. I tooooootally believe them. We all saw how short cop completely ignored Philip's express refused consent to a consensual encounter. If I recall, Philip even made to start walking again, and the cop interjected, "It will only take a minute."

    Philip again expressly refused consent to a consensual encounter. Short cop then offered him a ride. Which caused great laughter and lite moment; but totally obscured the fact that the cop, right in front of our eyes, ignored Philips express refusals to a consensual encounter.

    As I recall, the case law does not require one to keep walking as the only manifestation of refused consent accepted by the courts.

    This is simply cop-games to play loose and fast and exploit a loophole in 4A case law, rather than actually respect people's rights.

    I got five dollars that says the Capt's were just giving a theoretical answer to a hypothetical question.
    I have developed a routine that works very well Citizen. I only recommend it if you have your "Be Polite" video camera on because it is guaranteed to PO the best tempered Cop, but it works.

    Get the initial "Am I being Detained" question over with.

    Cop...It will only take a minute.
    Me....This conversation is over
    Cop...Is there a reason you don't want to talk to me?
    Me....I'm tired of repeating myself. I'll use a code from now on. Number one means this conversation is over.
    Cop...Why are you being argumentative?
    Me....Number one
    Cop...Can you just tell me_
    Me...Number one.

    You get the idea.
    Never let them control the conversation or intimidate you.

  23. #23
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I have developed a routine that works very well Citizen. I only recommend it if you have your "Be Polite" video camera on because it is guaranteed to PO the best tempered Cop, but it works.

    Get the initial "Am I being Detained" question over with.

    Cop...It will only take a minute.
    Me....This conversation is over
    Cop...Is there a reason you don't want to talk to me?
    Me....I'm tired of repeating myself. I'll use a code from now on. Number one means this conversation is over.
    Cop...Why are you being argumentative?
    Me....Number one
    Cop...Can you just tell me_
    Me...Number one.

    You get the idea.
    Never let them control the conversation or intimidate you.
    There are sooo many ways I could respond to this, commencing with a child's code for #1 and #2, but I won't .. not here .. oh snit I just did. < hand slap >

    Is there a 10 code for an uncooperative citizen who knows his rights?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  24. #24
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    In their scenario....they were talking to the "suspects" in "cop talk"......that is...

    Suspect: "Officer...I'd like to let you know, I have a CHL and have a firearm" [or something to that effect]
    Cop: "Alright....just don't make any furtive movements towards it"

    <break>

    My response would be: "WTF is a furtive movement?....talk to me like a person and not another cop" My point being--not everyone knows what a furtive movement is....

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    My response would be: "WTF is a furtive movement?....talk to me like a person and not another cop" My point being--not everyone knows what a furtive movement is....
    Furtive = Any real or perceived movement that they will later use to justify either: 1. Shooting your ass, 2. Tasering you, or 3. giving you a 'wood shampoo'. These movements could include coughing, sneezing, reaching for your wallet.... etc...

    All in the name of 'officer safety' of course....

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