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Thread: Must we be "All or none" with no compromise?

  1. #1
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Must we be "All or none" with no compromise?

    The title sets the question.

    I will use walmart as the target issue since there have multiple threads on this companies reaction to the growing oc movement. I do not intend this to be another walmart thread. You can substitute any business in it's place for the purpose of the question.

    I will use my own situation to explain.
    I live in Owosso. There is a walmart superstore and a meijer store as my ONLY options for retail general merchandise. I adamantly refuse to shop at meijer, based upon 30+ yrs of their disgusting sales practices and products...enough said on them.
    Thus, this leaves me only walmart as my resource for my needs within an affordable distance to utilize.
    Walmart used to have their policy of following state law. But over the last 3yrs and all the different inquiries made to some store denials to follow state law; they now leave it up to each store manager to make said determination of firearm possession, oc or cc. This became an issue at the store in Owosso.

    After multiple discussions with the store manager, her and I made an agreement that I could oc in their store; unless someone reported or made an issue of it. Then I would either have to cover it up or take it out to my truck.
    This has worked as a reasonable resolution for my particular situation.

    I have had some good discussion with other members here on this question. We didn't exactly "agree" on my choice, but they understood my situation. I agree in "theory" with their rebuttals to the point of going elsewhere but I don't have that option.
    I will not patronize ANY business that doesn't "allow" firearms...period.

    Okay, that sets the background for the question.
    Whether there are other stores/options available or not;
    Must we be "all or none" with regards to businesses "allowing" oc/cc?
    Doesn't making a small compromise show the business we are willing to "work" with them and we only want the right to defend ourselves?

    Our original premise was "baby steps" to get oc as an accepted daily practice.
    Isn't this compromise an acceptable "baby step" for this manager to agree to until such a time as oc is accepted?

    Would it have accomplished any positive advance had I pushed the issue and have her decide to ban firearms completely? In my situation, I would now have to shop completely disarmed.
    Would this have been a better decision rather than oc until challenged and then be required to cover or leave?
    I understand those w/o a cpl would have no choice but to leave.

    Now how about some honest discussion if we "Have" to be all or none. Or if there are acceptable "compromises" to advance the further goal.....Constitutional Carry for all.

  2. #2
    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    @Warchild: And what other constitutional rights are you willing to give up just to be able to be seen as a reasonable compromiser and to keep your ability to shop at a given store? Suppose you're in Walmart and someone objects to the political opinions that you are discussing with a friend while you shop, and reports it or makes an issue of it? Just imagine, you are telling your friend that you disagree with Obama's policies and decisions and an Obama supporter objects to what you have said and reports you to the manager ... and he asks you to leave...

    Or, suppose that with no reasonable suspicion that you have shoplifted anything, the security personnel pull you off to the side and perform an unreasonable search and seizure ... just in case you MIGHT have put something in your pocket.

    Just because it involves your right to keep and bear arms, does that put that right into a different category than all of your other rights?

    How far are you willing to compromise any of your rights just to shop at Walmart?

  3. #3
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    All you say is true and I don't fully dispute them.
    But the examples you cite have laws in place to somewhat protect unlawful search and/or detainment.
    Were this in a state where lawful carry is fully recognized; I would not make such a compromise. But until Mich attains that restoration of our rights; is not some compromise acceptable as opposed to being banned from carry at all? In my situation, I don't have the option to go elsewhere for my needs; so I must shop there.

    I consider part of our mission here in Mich, to win over businesses (private property) to accept any lawful carry at anytime, as in other states.
    There are no laws governing private property in this regard and no I do not advocate or want any such laws to do so.

    Many of our other "rights" have laws to protect them. "Keep and bear arms" does not have that protection in all states. Hence the need for some states working so hard to restore those rights fully.

    As I posted; If I have other options, I will not use any business that denies me that right. I do however take the receipt for the sale from their competitor back to them and show them what sales they have lost. Others here have done the same thing and one local business took it to heart and reversed their no gun policy.

    So must we "dig in our heels" ALL the time if we have a chance to "win" them over?

  4. #4
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Two different topics. You are talking about PRIVATE property and at this time they can accept or ban firearms at their will. The only repercussions are lose of sales, bad publicity, and perhaps a blitz's of complaints.

    On the other hand is a government ban on firearms, where the repercussions are law suits, and legislative changes.

    I will not compromise with the government, I will try and work to change businesses to change their unconstitutional policy and shop elsewhere if they don't.

    No compromise needed.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  5. #5
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Interesting. I had not seen this thread when I responded to a poster about their situation regarding a theater where he was volunteering.

    I saw it as a choice, and ended with something along the line of 'You get all of me, or none of me'.

    Some things are a decision only you can make. In the case of a volunteer, I'd make the choice to walk, rather then give in. In other situations, I may decide to opt for a less contentious approach. It all depends on the situation.

    Fortunately, I live in GR and have options where to shop, so there is little hardship if Wally World doesn't want my money.

    For me, the bottom line is the ability to protect my life, and those with me. OC, CC or otherwise. I don't take the decision to be vulnerable lightly.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  6. #6
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    True, I guess I should have made that an explicit point that I was talking about businesses and private property authority.

    You and I have discussed this many times (we tend to disagree by the way), but I still like you anyway...can't help myself.

    The basic question is:
    Given the store is your only option, or do without.

    Would you make this compromise or choose to shop unarmed?

  7. #7
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Interesting. I had not seen this thread when I responded to a poster about their situation regarding a theater where he was volunteering.

    I saw it as a choice, and ended with something along the line of 'You get all of me, or none of me'.

    Some things are a decision only you can make. In the case of a volunteer, I'd make the choice to walk, rather then give in. In other situations, I may decide to opt for a less contentious approach. It all depends on the situation.

    Fortunately, I live in GR and have options where to shop, so there is little hardship if Wally World doesn't want my money.

    For me, the bottom line is the ability to protect my life, and those with me. OC, CC or otherwise. I don't take the decision to be vulnerable lightly.
    I was following that thread and saw your post. Yes, I agree. I would have left also and have done so in similar situations. IF...I have a choice, I always leave.

    I started this thread to try and gauge why so many choose to dig in their heels in lieu of any compromise if it attains the main goal.

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The very wording of the question, while providing limitless fodder for discourse, will never reach a universally accepted conclusion. Sincerely doubt even a quorum could be mustered.

    Must we be "All or none" with no compromise?


    No.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  9. #9
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Very true, hence the reason for my query.
    It does make for good discussion and gives me an idea of the mindset of those who respond.
    We tend to be a society of absolutes with no compromise...black or white...period.

    I'm just curious why we have to be that way.

  10. #10
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    Very true, hence the reason for my query.
    It does make for good discussion and gives me an idea of the mindset of those who respond.
    We tend to be a society of absolutes with no compromise...black or white...period.

    I'm just curious why we have to be that way.
    At the least you will get a glimpse into their "internet" personality and share some insight.

    I see most (all?) people making compromises continually, whether they believe they are or not. There is still the matter of the question and how each individual will approach it - I suppose that is part of your goal.
    http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5486

    Understand your premise though. Have fun.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  11. #11
    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    warchild - are you the only OC that goes in there? i'm tempted to try it there and see if i get the same treatment. nothing against you but maybe it's you and not the policy or law. looked it up on the map. hour drive from where i live. would have to go on a weekend tho. maybe several OC visits by different people might sway their decision. they can tackle one but not 5 or 6. eventually they would give up. i have to go shopping today. might take a drive.

  12. #12
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    True, I guess I should have made that an explicit point that I was talking about businesses and private property authority.

    You and I have discussed this many times (we tend to disagree by the way), but I still like you anyway...can't help myself.

    The basic question is:
    Given the store is your only option, or do without.

    Would you make this compromise or choose to shop unarmed?
    I will not go to my American Legion post anymore or renew my membership because of their recent no gun policy. This after 17 years as a member. I really hate to do it, but I can't compromise on this issue.

    Oh well, their lose.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    After multiple discussions with the store manager, her and I made an agreement that I could oc in their store; unless someone reported or made an issue of it. Then I would either have to cover it up or take it out to my truck.
    This has worked as a reasonable resolution for my particular situation. . . .

    Now how about some honest discussion if we "Have" to be all or none. Or if there are acceptable "compromises" to advance the further goal.....Constitutional Carry for all.
    I completely agree with your approach. I don't see it as "compromise", because I view compromise as permanently setting aside your principles. If you accept working with someone else who sometimes accepts a principle of yours, with your goal being working on their total acceptance of the principle, then you are making smart tactical moves that may pay off in the overall war to advance gun rights. There's a very good chance that eventually the store employees grow to be accustomed to you and OC, and when faced with another customer having a "concern", they may eventually get to the point of responding, "He is no one to worry about. We know him. How can I help you?"

    That's a win, and it has a good possibility of being realized.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  14. #14
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Yes, to my knowledge, I am the only oc'er in this town. There have been a couple of times I have seen others but they were just "passing through". I have never seen another oc'er in wallyworld.
    I have made it a point to oc in there at least once a week over the last 6mos and have had only one challenge; it was by a shift manager and I confronted his challenge and he left me alone to finish my shopping.
    Remember my agreement says I can oc...unless challenged.

    As an aside to this, I have been informed through an leo grapevine; the local PD knows who I am, where I live, what I drive, and that I am a harmless retiree just passing time.
    So if they get a call about a white haired old man with a black hat...don't bother.

  15. #15
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I will not go to my American Legion post anymore or renew my membership because of their recent no gun policy. This after 17 years as a member. I really hate to do it, but I can't compromise on this issue.
    Correct, notwithstanding the compromise that I find acceptable as I note in an above comment, there can be no compromise with total gun banning or those who have completely closed their mind off to allowing carry.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  16. #16
    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    i've also found that 'customer's concerns' usually means ONE customer. store managers often exaggerate numbers to make their point. in my one and only negative LEO encounter OC he told me that he talked to 20 of my neighbors who were in an uproar about me. i don't have 20 neighbors and none of them said they saw them by my house that day at all. also he said their phone was ringing off the hook about me. when i called oakland county dispatch they said they got ONE call.

  17. #17
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I will not go to my American Legion post anymore or renew my membership because of their recent no gun policy. This after 17 years as a member. I really hate to do it, but I can't compromise on this issue.

    Oh well, their lose.
    Neither would I.

    BTW: Is this the same place we were at year before last when they asked me to leave?
    (I think it was because I wasn't drinking)...or the HAT!

  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    Neither would I.

    BTW: Is this the same place we were at year before last when they asked me to leave?
    (I think it was because I wasn't drinking)...or the HAT!
    Yes. A retired Lansing cop is on the board and he made the motion to ban guns. Big surprise.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I will not compromise with the government, I will try and work to change businesses to change their unconstitutional policy and shop elsewhere if they don't.

    No compromise needed.
    Beat me to it.

    Great wording Mr.Jeffs

  20. #20
    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    hey warchild..i went to the owosso walmart today..here's what i encountered -
    1) it was a lot further than google earth made it appear..when i first read it i wondered why you didn't go to another local town and shop there...when i drove there i realized there are no other local towns...just snowy farm land. should have zoomed in satellite of town/area before i went.
    2) women were better looking there than i thought. a lot of just out of high school couples with multiple kids.
    3) i got there about 2:30pm not too crowded. greeter Sherrie said "welcome to walmart". nothing about OC. asked manager where ATM was. pointed to customer service. nothing about OC. same at ATM right next to customer service counter with no customers waiting. not a word. was all over the entire store and it was noticed by customers and only gesture was a 12 year old boy that said "COOL"!!! and a thumbs up. was there about half an hour. checked out at self register thing and left. no issues.
    4) no issues at Everything $1 store next to it or Meijer gas station store to get energy drink and lottos.
    5) only variable was i wore a black pull over sweatshirt and my sig 28 in black serpa holster might not have been visible immediately to casual observer but like said it WAS noticed by customers and wasn't an issue.

    how's that for legwork? was $20 in gas tho.

  21. #21
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Well I do appreciate your support and efforts. You see I wasn't kidding when I say it's the only place in town for me to use.

    You had just about the same normal experience I have most of the time. Which is why I am allowed to oc, unless someone complains. I can live with that for now.
    Also, my nephew has started ocing, so I will no longer be the "only" one in town.
    Again, as it becomes more common, less complaints will ensue.

    Next time you're in the mood for a drive, let me know and we can meet up for a quick cup of coffee or something.

  22. #22
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    So, you continue to shop at a place which is the ONLY partner of Mayors Against Illegal Guns (MAIG)? I can see Warchild shopping at Walmart, as it seems he has no other options. But to drive any length of time to support a group who is, at this point in time, driving a truck around the country with a billboard "keeping a running tally of the number of Americans killed by gun violence since the January 8 massacre in Tucson" and fervently trying to limit a citizen's right to carry in many states is hypocrisy. If you must shop and there are no other options, by all means keep shopping. But, if you have a choice, I would strongly suggest that you shop elsewhere.

    http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns....tnership.shtml

    http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns....s_021611.shtml
    Last edited by DrTodd; 03-06-2011 at 06:17 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

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  23. #23
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    We've had this discussion before my friend... and it always comes down to...

    We all have to make our choices based on the criteria operative at the time. Some choices are easy to make... others are not. Some choices can actually hurt a person's livelihood or even their freedom.

    But... the choices are yours and your alone.

    Another "but"... if a person makes their choices and then asks what other folks think of those choices............ expect to get responses anywhere from total support to total dismissal.. and maybe even a discouraging word or name thrown in.

    Be true to yourself my friend... that is the only choice we all really have.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  24. #24
    Regular Member kryptonian's Avatar
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    would love to meet up some day warchild. booked monday thru friday tho. have to be weekend. hate coffee tho and i quit alcohol so have to be mt. dew for me.

    dr. todd. very good point and am secretly jealous as hell of your profile pic and the only thing keeping me from stealing it is i don't want to stray from my superman theme. side note - i was guided to owosso by my tomtom GPS which has C3PO voice and R2D2 in the background.

  25. #25
    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    And I totally agree with you. I was just wondering how many others may be out there in similar situations where they are forced to make decisions based on restrictions and not their desires, wants, or needs. Employers restrictions is also one of the offending issues.

    I don't mind disagreement at all. I welcome other points of view. Like you and I, along with others; we can politely disagree on points of view without having a negative effect on our conversation or friendship.

    Good to see you both last night. Took us an hour and 45min to get home on the skating rink called a road...uuuggghhh!

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