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Thread: LEOs = Super Human? think not!

  1. #1
    Regular Member protect our rights's Avatar
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    LEOs = Super Human? think not!

    WOW, some LEOs are just ignorant. It is funny to hear them bicker over OCing. They seem to think they are the only ones that are qualified to carry. Chek out this forum, it has about 20 LEO basically shunning another LEO for the mer mention of OCing. They completely made it so he woul never open carry. I wanted to join just to "inform" them how misguided they were!

    http://forums.officer.com/forums/sho...810-Open-carry
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good" - George Washington

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by IMPDNE
    Children, it isn't nice to argue...especially over the internets. You guys need to kiss and make up, or slug it out. Whatever you decide to do, do it in your home state, we have enough drama from Indiana locals that we don't need outsiders causing more.
    Monty Ealerman
    Well given that I was born in Indiana I don't think of myself as an "outsider" to that state even though I live in Chicago now.

    After RKT on this board (in response to a poll) said I was the person he'd most like to punch out, I invited him to come to Chicago and give it a try, and he later in good humor lied and said he'd already done so and won.

    I wasn't terribly serious about it, and I suppose he wasn't either, but if we could find a venue that didn't require too much travel of either of us, I'd be willing to give it a proper go, and I think he probably would too.
    And these are the guys that want the guns and don't want us to judge them.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protect our rights View Post
    WOW, some LEOs are just ignorant. It is funny to hear them bicker over OCing. They seem to think they are the only ones that are qualified to carry. Chek out this forum, it has about 20 LEO basically shunning another LEO for the mer mention of OCing. They completely made it so he woul never open carry. I wanted to join just to "inform" them how misguided they were!

    http://forums.officer.com/forums/sho...810-Open-carry
    They are not that much different than we are. Some make irrational generalizations about OCers, and some make thoughtful posts.

    Some here make irrational generalizations about LEOs, and some make thoughtful posts.

    One posted that thinking like a criminal would help us understand why OC is ill-advised. He pointed out that criminals want to get the money, not get shot, and get away. Once an OCer was spotted, that carrier would become the first target.

    Apparently, he never heard the story of the OCers deterring a robbery in a Kennesaw Waffle House. You see, the not getting shot is priority one for criminals. They'd just as soon leave and then either go someplace else or come back later. Their self-interest, to the expense of all else, prompts them to act in a cowardly manner unless they have the unquestionable upper hand. Knowing that another is armed raises the question of advantage, and an act of cowardice will usually result.

    That's not to say that a BG will never target an OCer. However, the lack of reports to date would indicate that BGs will almost never take the OCer out and that the LEO who made that post is not capable of truly thinking like the criminal.
    Last edited by eye95; 03-06-2011 at 10:49 AM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member protect our rights's Avatar
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    Yeah, not ALL LEOs think the way that the ones speaking on that forum do. I guess my topic was a bit broad. There are deff. A LOT of misguided LEOs unfortunately. You can just tell by the way they are speaking that they seem to think they are the top of the food chain. They are public (us) "servants"
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good" - George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by protect our rights View Post
    Yeah, not ALL LEOs think the way that the ones speaking on that forum do. I guess my topic was a bit broad. There are deff. A LOT of misguided LEOs unfortunately. You can just tell by the way they are speaking that they seem to think they are the top of the food chain. They are public (us) "servants"
    Yeah. I prefer the view that the LEOs are not superior to the rest of us. Nor are we superior to them. LEOs are simply folk who have been tasked with specific responsibilities which, under very limited and explicitly defined circumstances, allow them to give lawful orders to others. Likewise, we generally get to order them to bugger off in all other circumstances. If either of us fails to comply, legal consequences could ensue.

  6. #6
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I wonder if LEOs are pressured to hassle OCers cuz da Chief don't like the little folks having guns on their hips? My only point of reference is the almost unanimous and almost verbatim lingo Chiefs/Sheriff's associations use when they "disagree" with state legislatures relaxing gun restrictions and the move towards constitutional carry for the great unwashed masses.
    Don't forget that most have now simply become the political force or arm of certain governments and politicians. And since the 2a was written as an explicit threat of violence against tyranny.....it is no wonder they don't like common folk carrying guns.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  7. #7
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    "Blade Runner": Decker's boss to him about coming back as a cop. "You're either one of us or one of the little people." Sums up the vast majority of cop think, imo--even the good ones are susceptible to the collective mind . If citizens carry a firearm, they're not so little anymore. That thought frightens the mind set, supra.

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    Regular Member protect our rights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    "Blade Runner": Decker's boss to him about coming back as a cop. "You're either one of us or one of the little people." Sums up the vast majority of cop think, imo--even the good ones are susceptible to the collective mind . If citizens carry a firearm, they're not so little anymore. That thought frightens the mind set, supra.

    +1 Makes them a little less special. Kinda hard to pick on someone who is your equal, huh?
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good" - George Washington

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Love post #12 there:
    ...
    There was an interesting story out of Virginia a couple of months ago, where one of our SASS shooters was in a 7-11 after a match getting coffee, when an armed suspect tried to hold up the store. After the gunman shot the clerk (unprovoked), the heeled cowboy pulled his 7 1/2 inch black powder .44 and killed the suspect in a hail of gunfire and black powder smoke. Probably a fluke, but score one for the good guy.
    Seems the cops just cannot get their facts straight. That's ^ the Golden Market hold-up in Richmond, Va. The good guy is not a SASS shooter, but he does OC his BP .44 on a daily basis.

    The best thing, as far as I'm concerned, is that the attitude of a whole lot of cops has changed in the 2+ years since that thread was started. Either it is that they are actually willing to accept the inevitable or they are just that much more leery of being sued - it does not matter that much to me what their motivation is.

    stay safe.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    They are not that much different than we are. Some make irrational generalizations about OCers, and some make thoughtful posts.

    Some here make irrational generalizations about LEOs, and some make thoughtful posts.

    One posted that thinking like a criminal would help us understand why OC is ill-advised. He pointed out that criminals want to get the money, not get shot, and get away. Once an OCer was spotted, that carrier would become the first target.

    Apparently, he never heard the story of the OCers deterring a robbery in a Kennesaw Waffle House. You see, the not getting shot is priority one for criminals. They'd just as soon leave and then either go someplace else or come back later. Their self-interest, to the expense of all else, prompts them to act in a cowardly manner unless they have the unquestionable upper hand. Knowing that another is armed raises the question of advantage, and an act of cowardice will usually result.

    That's not to say that a BG will never target an OCer. However, the lack of reports to date would indicate that BGs will almost never take the OCer out and that the LEO who made that post is not capable of truly thinking like the criminal.
    Yup.

    Most of these cops are have become so enmeshed in their fantasy world of extreme danger on every corner that they view any potential BG as a hero of arch-villianry.

    In reality, most bad guys are not dedicated, psychopathic against-all-odds random hitmen; they are lazy, cowardly people lacking in intelligence.

    One of those cops suggested that we assume criminals think like us.

    Not so. I have to take myself outside my own experience to think as a lazy, cowardly fool.

    And I think that the average criminal is more likely to be deterred by OC than I would be, were I a criminal.
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-07-2011 at 03:20 PM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    "Gotta love people who own guns, who are craving a confrontation with the police."


    I actually read some of the posts over there. That one caught my eye. Here's one he'd like, too.


    "We must take the guns from the people to make the streets safe for the SS."

    A. Hitler

    And this dick has a badge? One guy did have a good one: "Stallinois." Love that!

  12. #12
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protect our rights View Post
    +1 Makes them a little less special. Kinda hard to pick on someone who is your equal, huh?
    Bullies--or Stormtrooper thugs, don't like that at all.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    They are not that much different than we are. Some make irrational generalizations about OCers, and some make thoughtful posts.

    Some here make irrational generalizations about LEOs, and some make thoughtful posts.

    One posted that thinking like a criminal would help us understand why OC is ill-advised. He pointed out that criminals want to get the money, not get shot, and get away. Once an OCer was spotted, that carrier would become the first target.

    Apparently, he never heard the story of the OCers deterring a robbery in a Kennesaw Waffle House. You see, the not getting shot is priority one for criminals. They'd just as soon leave and then either go someplace else or come back later. Their self-interest, to the expense of all else, prompts them to act in a cowardly manner unless they have the unquestionable upper hand. Knowing that another is armed raises the question of advantage, and an act of cowardice will usually result.

    That's not to say that a BG will never target an OCer. However, the lack of reports to date would indicate that BGs will almost never take the OCer out and that the LEO who made that post is not capable of truly thinking like the criminal.
    Here's the thing: if you've been in combat, you understands SA. If you've been in a doughnut shop after running a speedtrap, it's not quite the same thing. The opinion of one step from Mall Ninja cops on OC is a matter of complete indifference to me. Where are the facts? When was an OCer taken out by a BG? I'd like to see one example. Until then, although I generally CC as I've said many times, OC is a viable way to deter crime until someone with credibility shows me otherwise.

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    Regular Member protect our rights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Here's the thing: if you've been in combat, you understands SA. If you've been in a doughnut shop after running a speedtrap, it's not quite the same thing. The opinion of one step from Mall Ninja cops on OC is a matter of complete indifference to me. Where are the facts? When was an OCer taken out by a BG? I'd like to see one example. Until then, although I generally CC as I've said many times, OC is a viable way to deter crime until someone with credibility shows me otherwise.
    I agree. Even if someone showed you or me or anybody for that matter proof that this happened. I still wouldn't change my mind on the subject. They would have to show a general trend, where that was an actual fact that OCers were becoming targets. Then and only then, would I think about not OCing in certain situations.
    Last edited by protect our rights; 03-07-2011 at 03:58 PM.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good" - George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by protect our rights View Post
    I agree. Even if someone showed you or me or anybody for that matter proof that this happened. I still wouldn't change my mind on the subject. They would have to show a general trend, where that was an actual fact that OCers were becoming targets. Then and only then, would I think about not OCing in certain situations.
    Nice dance steps there POR, since you already know of it happening and commented on it before making this post.

    Eye95, was also aware of it before he made his "lack of reports to date" comment. It is one of the points I was trying to make. Since you already know of a case, acting as if you are unaware undermines your creditability and weakens any points you may make after. This is why I believe we have to be honest, that it has happened, but that is very rare.

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    Regular Member protect our rights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    Nice dance steps there POR, since you already know of it happening and commented on it before making this post.
    Please post a link to a thread in which there is proof of a BG targeting a GG for his gun, or stole the gun from a legal carrier and used it against him. Let-alone me comment on such a thread. I'm sure this MAY have happened in the history of Legal carry. until I have seen evidence I'm not going to say it has happened for SURE.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good" - George Washington

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    It doesn't matter whether it "has" happened. What matters is whether it's likely. Lots of things have happened once or a few times, but are still ultra-rare.

    And anyway, there are threads posted here where bad guys take an OCer's gun all the time.

    In California, they call it an (e) check.

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    Regular Member protect our rights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    It doesn't matter whether it "has" happened. What matters is whether it's likely. Lots of things have happened once or a few times, but are still ultra-rare.

    And anyway, there are threads posted here where bad guys take an OCer's gun all the time.

    In California, they call it an (e) check.

    Yeah I have heard of several instances where BGs have taken legal carriers gun. That wasn't in question, it was whether a BG has used the GGs gun against him. Like I said "I'm sure it has probably happened", like you said "very rare in any case."
    Last edited by protect our rights; 03-07-2011 at 06:48 PM.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good" - George Washington

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protect our rights View Post
    That wasn't in question, it was whether a BG has used the GGs gun against him.
    What, you don't think surreptitiously running the serial number is using the gun against its owner?


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    Think my next OC purchase is going to be a drop leg holster, to help show the tactical advantage of having the weapon in the open. Like not having to fool around with a shirt or pocket or jacket et al. I'd also point out that the military doesn't hide their weapons while in combat where people really do want to kill you at every corner, we display those beasts as much as possible to deter the BGs.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Here's the thing: if you've been in combat, you understands SA. If you've been in a doughnut shop after running a speedtrap, it's not quite the same thing. The opinion of one step from Mall Ninja cops on OC is a matter of complete indifference to me.
    I really think I want to put this in my signature. Best post I've read all day. Especially in light of posts like these:

    Quote Originally Posted by LOLcop
    As an "out of State student" on a Police Officer forum, this is your opportunity to learn from the experts, not challenge them. Obviously in a gun battle, it's imperative to get off the first shot with deadly accuracy, and that is usually obtained by having a tactical advantage.
    So because you have a badge you know more than everyone else?
    Quote Originally Posted by LOLcop2
    On some things, yes. Not because of the badge itself but because of the training and experience that comes with it.

    Nobody would dispute that a brand new fighter jet pilot knows more about flying than the kid in his basement who's played Microsoft Flight Simulator for 2,000 hours. We'd all laught at the presumption of the kid for trying to tell the pilot the best way to land on an aircraft carrier at night, right? See the analogy?
    Of course we all know about cops and "deadly accuracy".




    Recently published Metro-Dade Police 1990-2001 shooting datav shed more light on issues seen elsewhere. During that 12-year period, Metro-Dade Police fired about 1,300 bullets at suspects, and missed more than 1,100 times. This suggests that Miami police fared no better than a 15.4% hit ratio, even though many of these incidents involved suspects who were later determined to be unarmed.
    http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by marshaul; 03-07-2011 at 11:17 PM.

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    There's a range in AZ where the number of firearms accidents by LEOs was greater than all other accidents combined.

    The range management started requiring that all LEOs go through the same basic safety orientations as anybody else and the problem went away.

    In my experience in law enforcement, I think the problem lies in attitude. They treat guns like a contractor would treat a cordless drill they hang on their belt at work. They forgot how nervous they were the first time they shot a gun.

    Once you lose the respect for that gun, it has a way of reminding you, with a humiliating experience at best and tragic results at worst.

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    Quote Originally Posted by protect our rights View Post
    Please post a link to a thread in which there is proof of a BG targeting a GG for his gun, or stole the gun from a legal carrier and used it against him. Let-alone me comment on such a thread. I'm sure this MAY have happened in the history of Legal carry. until I have seen evidence I'm not going to say it has happened for SURE.
    I notice you have added some qualifiers to your request.


    Here's the link to a man OCing being targeted in NM.

    http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S...shtml?cat=500#

    Here's a link to thread I started about it

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...acked-while-OC

    Here's a link to another thread about, one you commented on.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-carry-arrests



    The fact that the man was mentally unstable does not preclude him from being defined as a BG. He entered a restaurant where a man was sitting with an openly displayed gun. He targeted the man and attacked him. The man lost control of said gun during the struggle. The fact that a third party took possession of the gun, does not change the fact that the man was stripped of his main means of self defense.

    I suppose it is possible that you did not read the article before commenting. I hope that is not the case.

    Long before you joined this forum, those who oppose OC would suggest that doing so would cause someone to be targeted or attacked for it. Many(myself included) would respond "show us an example". Now, we have just such a case, and instead of accepting that, in fact, it has happened and pointing out the rarity of such an incident, there are some who wish to add "qualifiers" before they will accept this as proof. I think this will backfire on us. Our opponents will use this tactic against us to say we refuse to see the facts.

    The fact is that a man OCing was attacked by a BG because he had an openly displayed gun. I can also find at least one example of a man CCing being robbed of his gun. So what! If we are honest and admit this and point out just how rare of an occurrence this is, we limit the augments of those who oppose OC. We also show honesty and integrity. I hope this is the course we take.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    I notice you have added some qualifiers to your request.


    Here's the link to a man OCing being targeted in NM.

    http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S...shtml?cat=500#

    Here's a link to thread I started about it

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...acked-while-OC

    Here's a link to another thread about, one you commented on.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-carry-arrests



    The fact that the man was mentally unstable does not preclude him from being defined as a BG. He entered a restaurant where a man was sitting with an openly displayed gun. He targeted the man and attacked him. The man lost control of said gun during the struggle. The fact that a third party took possession of the gun, does not change the fact that the man was stripped of his main means of self defense.

    I suppose it is possible that you did not read the article before commenting. I hope that is not the case.

    Long before you joined this forum, those who oppose OC would suggest that doing so would cause someone to be targeted or attacked for it. Many(myself included) would respond "show us an example". Now, we have just such a case, and instead of accepting that, in fact, it has happened and pointing out the rarity of such an incident, there are some who wish to add "qualifiers" before they will accept this as proof. I think this will backfire on us. Our opponents will use this tactic against us to say we refuse to see the facts.

    The fact is that a man OCing was attacked by a BG because he had an openly displayed gun. I can also find at least one example of a man CCing being robbed of his gun. So what! If we are honest and admit this and point out just how rare of an occurrence this is, we limit the augments of those who oppose OC. We also show honesty and integrity. I hope this is the course we take.
    I'm missing your point. On the one hand, you have several links to the same incident. One incident is statistically meaningless when put over the denominator of tens of thousands (or more) OC events. I asked for an example of an OC'er "taken out" by a BG. I'm still waiting, as this turned into a non-event in the final analysis. And in the context of the cop forum and their "educated" opinions--what the thread is about, it's non sequitur. As to a CC'er being robbed of his gun, nonstarter for this discussion.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I really think I want to put this in my signature. Best post I've read all day. Especially in light of posts like these:





    Of course we all know about cops and "deadly accuracy".





    http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf
    Scary but hardly surprising. The question is where do the 8 out of 9 bullets go that miss the BGs?

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