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Thread: New to gun ownership

  1. #1
    Regular Member Foxtrot_Gunner's Avatar
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    New to gun ownership

    Greetings to everyone,

    I am new to this forum and new to gun ownership as well. I have lived in Utah for only a couple years as well, so I'm a tad ignorant to most Firearm laws. I recently purchased a handgun and have thought heavily about open carry. I bought a brand new Beretta 96A1; it's a .40 caliber S&W with double/single action. It's been many years since I have fired a handgun so i will be attending a class to get better acquainted with it tomorrow.

    My biggest concern with OC is that I do not have a car and walk/bike everywhere I go. I live at about 1300 S and State in Salt Lake City, so most things are within walking distance. What are areas that I need to avoid while open carrying. I live close to an elementary school but I can walk around it if I have to. What kinds of policies to stores (even liquor stores), restaurants, banks, librarys, etc. have with open carry? I understand I have to avoid TRAX and UTA Buses as I don't have a CCP. Is this true?

    I am also a Ham Radio operator and at times carry a radio on my belt with a lapel mic on my shoulder. So, I'm paranoid about being accused of trying to impersonate a LEO (with a gun, mags, radio, etc.).

    Thanks everyone for taking a look and helping out a first timer.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard Foxtrot.

    Start be reading, understanding and remembering this and follow and study all links.
    http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/doc...NSTRUCTORS.pdf

    Note that the restriction pertaining to vehicles says (in or on) so I am quite sure that will include a bicycle.

    I'm sure that others will chime in with more detail as the sun comes up.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

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    Regular Member Foxtrot_Gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Welcome aboard Foxtrot.

    Start be reading, understanding and remembering this and follow and study all links.
    http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/doc...NSTRUCTORS.pdf

    Note that the restriction pertaining to vehicles says (in or on) so I am quite sure that will include a bicycle.

    I'm sure that others will chime in with more detail as the sun comes up.
    Thank you for the PDF link, I'll have to print that out read it a few times.

    Loaded vs. Unloaded - I know without a permit I have to be two actions from firing (no round in the chamber, but a full mag)...is this still a loaded gun? Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I like details.
    Last edited by Foxtrot_Gunner; 03-08-2011 at 03:19 AM. Reason: Had another question

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I'm not near enough up to speed on the nuances of OC there or the fine points of the law to cover details with you. Be assured though that there is a lot of erroneous info/rumor etc out there - some of it even comes from LEOs.

    I learned enough basics to get my Utah permit to supplement my Va. CHP that's about it. Then I do a major search on any states I intend to visit.

    By tomorrow evening you should have some good answers, maybe some early on in the day. Spend some time perusing the Utah threads, generally good stuff there.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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    Regular Member Michael Hopkins's Avatar
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    Loaded vs. Unloaded - I know without a permit I have to be two actions from firing (no round in the chamber, but a full mag)...is this still a loaded gun? Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I like details.
    For Utah purposes, a weapon such as you described is unloaded. Since you have to 1.)Rack the slide and 2.)Pull the trigger to fire you have fulfilled the two mechanical actions from firing requirement. This is not for a revolver, obviously.

    Hope that helps.
    Mike
    When I told you you needed to trouble-shoot your PC, I didn't mean load it with .45 lead when Windows blew up again.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hopkins View Post
    For Utah purposes, a weapon such as you described is unloaded. Since you have to 1.)Rack the slide and 2.)Pull the trigger to fire you have fulfilled the two mechanical actions from firing requirement. This is not for a revolver, obviously.

    Hope that helps.
    Mike
    For future reference for my benefit -

    1911 w/loaded and inserted mag, rd in the chamber w/ thumb safety engaged.

    Does the act of disengaging the safety and squeezing the trigger also constitute the requisite two mechanical actions? If so that strikes me as strange because condition1, locked and loaded, is a ready to go situation to me.

    With a SA or double action revolver how is this satisfied?
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Red face Clarification and an up to date link.

    WELCOME to the Open Carry Forum and to the world of Open Carry.

    In response to your question, unless you hold a valid Utah Concealed Firearm Permit (CFP), you may NOT have a round in the chamber of a semiautomatic pistol or revolver. In the case of the revolver, the adjacent cylinder chamber must be empty as well. So, it is not as simple as the two mechanical actions rule. So, no, a semiautomatic pistol in Condition 1 (Locked and Cocked) is NOT unloaded within the meaning of Utah Law.

    A poster above provided a link to "dated" laws, some of which are no longer valid. The link below takes you to the required course materials for a Utah Concealed Firearm Permit and is the most recent as of today:

    Link: http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/doc...TC01032011.pdf

    Expect this to change after the current Utah legislature goes into recess as several firearms laws have changed.

    This forum is not a good venue for teaching all the nuances of open carry, so whether or not you desire a CFP, I recommend that you take the course. Many CFP Instructors hang out here and on www.utahconcealedcarry.com in the Training Forum.

    As for the 2 meter hand held, you might be briefly mistaken for a security guard, but what you propose is not illegal. You may get local LEOs to ask you what the radio is though and whether or not it is capable of accessing the military or police portions of the 2 Meter Band.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Regular Member Foxtrot_Gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post

    In response to your question, unless you hold a valid Utah Concealed Firearm Permit (CFP), you may NOT have a round in the chamber of a semiautomatic pistol or revolver. So, no, a semiautomatic pistol in Condition 1 (Locked and Cocked) is NOT unloaded within the meaning of Utah Law.
    So an unloaded gun is having the chamber EMPTY, but there can still be a full mag in the weapon?

    This forum is not a good venue for teaching all the nuances of open carry, so whether or not you desire a CFP, I recommend that you take the course. Many CFP Instructors hang out here and on www.utahconcealedcarry.com in the Training Forum.
    I'm taking a basic handguns class tomorrow and I will ask the instructor there about the CFP class too.

    As for the 2 meter hand held, you might be briefly mistaken for a security guard, but what you propose is not illegal. You may get local LEOs to ask you what the radio is though and whether or not it is capable of accessing the military or police portions of the 2 Meter Band.
    As for my radio and with most amateur radios I can receive military and police bands. I am also a member of R.A.C.E.S. which is established through the Utah Division of Homeland Security. That means in emergencies I can help relay and supply/transmit info and back-up communications for local, state, and federal authorities.

    Thank you for the info and PDF link. It looks like I have a lot of reading and learning to do, but it's always worth being better prepared and informed.

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    For those lacking a Utah CFP, in the case of a semi-automatic pistol, if there is no round in the chamber, the magazine can be loaded to capacity and inside the firearm, but carry cannot be concealed. For those who hold a Utah CFP, a semi-automatic pistol may be carried, open or concealed, in Condition 1 (locked and cocked).

    Without a Utah CFP, you must remain clear of Utah and Federal Gun Free School Zones, except when in your vehicle (Utah Castle Doctrine extends to you car).

    I did not invest in my NRA and BCI ratings to make money. For some on this forum, I have been known to conduct the BCI CFP course for the price of my lunch at the Braza Grill (about $15).
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    I would refer you to the definitive source:

    76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
    (1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
    (2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
    (3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

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    Regular Member Foxtrot_Gunner's Avatar
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    Thank you guys for the info. I have completed my course for basic handgun and will be going further to complete my concealed course even though I cannot get said permit. I am very interested in firearm laws and now more concerned about the issues of firearm laws in Utah than ever before.

    I think I did well as I made 10 consecutive shots within about 3 inches after about 100 rounds in 5 round magazines (maybe 30 feet [not sure how the distance]). This is my first time and all and I feel really confident so far. I would like to meet other professional or more knowledgeable people to go shooting with though.

    Do you think I am am being over confident or do I need to put another 100 or 1000 rounds though my sidearm?
    Last edited by Foxtrot_Gunner; 03-10-2011 at 04:06 AM. Reason: Ending question.

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot_Gunner View Post
    I have completed my course for basic handgun and will be going further to complete my concealed course even though I cannot get said permit.
    "Cannot get said permit"? Why might that be?
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot_Gunner View Post
    Do you think I am am being over confident or do I need to put another 100 or 1000 rounds though my sidearm?
    Only you can say when you are ready...Though I don't know that any of us are ever truly "ready". Preperation to carry is not just standing at the line putting holes in paper. You also want to train in drawing, racking and getting on target quickly with ammo in another room.

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    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    "Cannot get said permit"? Why might that be?
    <21?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    I did not invest in my NRA and BCI ratings to make money. For some on this forum, I have been known to conduct the BCI CFP course for the price of my lunch at the Braza Grill (about $15).
    Am i correct in reading this? Does this mean if i take you out to lunch you can pass me off for my CFP? For me its been an issue of time and money to do the usual $45-65 CFP classes that take a few hours.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfficerMatt View Post
    Am i correct in reading this? Does this mean if i take you out to lunch you can pass me off for my CFP? For me its been an issue of time and money to do the usual $45-65 CFP classes that take a few hours.
    Sure that you still get the class - would be illegal otherwise. Just a matter of barter.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    Without a Utah CFP, you must remain clear of Utah and Federal Gun Free School Zones, except when in your vehicle (Utah Castle Doctrine extends to you car).
    Does this mean that those of us with the UT CFP can cary in Utah and Federal Gun Free Zones (obviously only while in UT)? To me a gunfree zone is gun free regardless of your permit (unless you're something like LEO).
    Last edited by Aknazer; 03-14-2011 at 11:24 AM.

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    Regular Member colormered's Avatar
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    That's the way it is.

    You're correct. In Utah, with the Utah CFP, you can carry loaded, open or concealed, in any PUBLIC school from Kindergarten through University. PRIVATE schools, however, are a different story, and can prohibit what they choose.

    Whether or not you'll be confronted by LEO's that may not be well informed of the law or just choose to enforce their opinion of what the law should be, is another matter entirely.

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfficerMatt View Post
    Am i correct in reading this? Does this mean if i take you out to lunch you can pass me off for my CFP? For me its been an issue of time and money to do the usual $45-65 CFP classes that take a few hours.
    What it means is:

    If I decide to take you on as a student, I will present the full Utah Concealed Firearm Permit Course, using the most recent course materials generated by the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification (enhanced by slides from the NRA Pistol Course and slides created by the Utah Bureau of Criminal Investigation for the purpose of teaching the CFP course) - and the course shall be conducted in-person - and will take approximately 4 hours (or longer if there are substantial questions). - And, my fee for conducting such course shall be lunch at the Braza Grill.

    There is NO WAY that I, or any other reputable BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor, would ever "pass you off" for a lunch. Having said that, there is nothing in Utah law that prevents us from spending the full 4 hours at the Braza grill while I present the course on computer, one instructor with one student, with you looking at the course materials as published on BCI's site. That way, we both might get lunch and dinner for the price of lunch.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Regular Member Foxtrot_Gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    "Cannot get said permit"? Why might that be?
    Long story short; DUI in Oregon in 2005 and the judge was a hard ass and put me on probation for 60 months. Believe me when I say I learned my lesson. I just have to wait 5 years before I can apply for a permit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot_Gunner View Post
    Long story short; DUI in Oregon in 2005 and the judge was a hard ass and put me on probation for 60 months. Believe me when I say I learned my lesson. I just have to wait 5 years before I can apply for a permit.
    Respectfully, I think 5 years probation is not really very hard for DUI. More than typical for a first offense. But way less than I think we ought to be imposing, especially if anyone was injured. But that is neither here nor there. The law is what it is. And if you have really learned your lesson, then it is a lesson well learned for yourself, those who love you, and everyone with whom you share the road.

    That all said, let me just encourage you to play forward in your mind how you think any interaction with a peace officer or heaven forbid, prosecutor or judge, is going to play out for you. Yes, you can legally carry a gun in many circumstances without having a permit to carry so long as you are not a prohibited person. And so far as I know, a misdemeanor DUI does not make you a prohibited person. But it does make you suspect in many people's eyes, especially so long as you are on probation for the offense. This may not be right, or fair, but it is the way it is.

    While real problems with LEOs over simple possession are rare, peruse the forum a bit and see how unpleasant it can be on those rare occasions when it does happen. And that is for those with squeaky clean records. Imagine what happens if you actually have to use your gun and there is even the slightest question as to whether that use was justified?

    I'm not attempting to dissuade you from exercising your legal rights. I am suggesting that, right or wrong, YOU carry an extra burden over and above what most do, when you choose to carry a gun.

    I offer the following suggestions after you play forward in your mind how a cop, prosecutor, or judge, is going to treat you:

    1-Get a digital voice recorder and some good rechargeable batteries. Do not carry your gun without the voice recorder on your person and turned on. You won't have time to turn it on if you need to use the gun. Being on probation for DUI your word will be suspect. Have a witness that can't be refuted. Recharge a set of batteries each evening at home while the charged set is in the recorder.

    2-Never carry without a cell phone. Should you even have a slight argument with someone while you are (of necessity, open) carrying, be sure to call the police first. Victims call the police. Criminals do not. Be sure you are the victim, not the criminal.

    3-Be sure you know Utah and federal gun law inside and out for carrying without a permit. This includes knowing where GFSZs are and avoiding them when afoot. You will get a lot less slack for technical violations than anyone else.

    4-Get to know a good lawyer, versed in Utah and federal gun and self-defense laws. Carry his card with your cell phone. Be prepared to pay him for his legal advice.

    5-Avoid arguing with cops, even if you are right. Leave that to others, or save it for when you do not carry the burden of being on probation. Learn how to say, "I don't think you are correct, but I don't want any hassles so I do as you request and [leave my gun in the car | leave the area | drop the magazine | etc]".

    6-Use an extra measure of care to be sure you are never possibly perceived by any witness (including the ones you don't know are there) as the aggressor. Be courteous in your driving. Be quick to apologize. Be meek in tone and demeanor. Should you ever feel compelled to use your gun in self-defense, if at all possible, give very loud, very clear warning: "BACK OFF!! I SAID NO!! DROP YOUR WEAPON!!"

    I do wish you all the best and hope that my suggestions here are received in the spirit of hoping you avoid any and all problems that can be avoided.

    Charles

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    Regular Member jpm84092's Avatar
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    This is probably something that you will not like to read, but it is Utah law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrot_Gunner View Post
    Long story short; DUI in Oregon in 2005 and the judge was a hard ass and put me on probation for 60 months. Believe me when I say I learned my lesson. I just have to wait 5 years before I can apply for a permit.
    I have consulted my BCI Instructor Course and find that you may apply for expungement of your Oregon DUI 10 years after all penalties, including probation, have been completely served. I expect this is not news you wanted to hear, but it is how things are for you. Thus, you cannot apply for expungement until 10 years after your last day on probation. (And this is true ONLY if you were convicted of misdemeanor DUI - felony DUI is another matter entirely. A felony conviction makes you ineligible to own a firearm under Federal Law - and thus would make "open carry" an additional felony.)

    The statements below have been cut and pasted from the BCI Concealed Firearm Instructor Course; slide #70 (for the course taught in November 2010 - thus pretty current)

    "Expungement eligibility will be based upon your total history, not what has been reported to BCI. This includes incidents in all states. Some factors which may contribute to a denial are:

    10 years Any alcohol related traffic offense."

    Thus, if you were convicted of a traffic violation of Driving Under the Influence of Drugs or Alcohol, your wait time is the 5 years of probation + 10 years before you can apply for expungement of your DUI. And, application for expungement will be denied if you have other felony or gross misdemeanors on your record in any State since your initial conviction on DUI.

    I am not trying to discourage you. I am just citing Utah Law on expungement as it applies to a Utah Concealed Firearms Permit. I encourage you to be patient and realize that drinking and driving have terrible consequences; particularly with respect to obtaining a Utah Concealed Firearm Permit.
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
    "Permission Slips" from Utah, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, and Florida. _ Verily, thou shalt not fiddle with thine firearm whilst in the bathroom stall, lest thine spouse seek condolences from thine friends.

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    Regular Member Foxtrot_Gunner's Avatar
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    I do not have any felonies, as I would not have been able to purchase my Beretta 96A1 in the first place. This is also a court probation so as long as I'm behaved I don't have to see a probation officer or report to court on a monthly basis (which I have been ).

    In the duration of my DUI offence I was alone in the vehicle and crashed on a lone, dark road in the middle of nowhere. I am thankful to survive. But I can't tell you how much I think about how this could have turned out different, and how I am very lucky that all I got was 5 years probation.

    I thank you guys a lot for sharing knowledge about laws and such about handguns.
    Last edited by Foxtrot_Gunner; 03-20-2011 at 04:51 AM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm84092 View Post
    What it means is:

    If I decide to take you on as a student, I will present the full Utah Concealed Firearm Permit Course, using the most recent course materials generated by the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification (enhanced by slides from the NRA Pistol Course and slides created by the Utah Bureau of Criminal Investigation for the purpose of teaching the CFP course) - and the course shall be conducted in-person - and will take approximately 4 hours (or longer if there are substantial questions). - And, my fee for conducting such course shall be lunch at the Braza Grill.
    I would take you up on this once we move out west (Colorado hopefully this time next year.) Or if you are ever in Atlanta, we have a couple great Brazilian steakhouses.

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