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New to gun ownership

Foxtrot_Gunner

New member
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
8
Location
Salt Lake City
Greetings to everyone,

I am new to this forum and new to gun ownership as well. I have lived in Utah for only a couple years as well, so I'm a tad ignorant to most Firearm laws. I recently purchased a handgun and have thought heavily about open carry. I bought a brand new Beretta 96A1; it's a .40 caliber S&W with double/single action. It's been many years since I have fired a handgun so i will be attending a class to get better acquainted with it tomorrow.

My biggest concern with OC is that I do not have a car and walk/bike everywhere I go. I live at about 1300 S and State in Salt Lake City, so most things are within walking distance. What are areas that I need to avoid while open carrying. I live close to an elementary school but I can walk around it if I have to. What kinds of policies to stores (even liquor stores), restaurants, banks, librarys, etc. have with open carry? I understand I have to avoid TRAX and UTA Buses as I don't have a CCP. Is this true?

I am also a Ham Radio operator and at times carry a radio on my belt with a lapel mic on my shoulder. So, I'm paranoid about being accused of trying to impersonate a LEO (with a gun, mags, radio, etc.).

Thanks everyone for taking a look and helping out a first timer.
 

Foxtrot_Gunner

New member
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
8
Location
Salt Lake City
Welcome aboard Foxtrot.

Start be reading, understanding and remembering this and follow and study all links.
http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/docs/FIREARMS_LAWS_FOR_INSTRUCTORS.pdf

Note that the restriction pertaining to vehicles says (in or on) so I am quite sure that will include a bicycle.

I'm sure that others will chime in with more detail as the sun comes up.

Thank you for the PDF link, I'll have to print that out read it a few times.

Loaded vs. Unloaded - I know without a permit I have to be two actions from firing (no round in the chamber, but a full mag)...is this still a loaded gun? Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I like details. :)
 
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Grapeshot

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May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
I'm not near enough up to speed on the nuances of OC there or the fine points of the law to cover details with you. Be assured though that there is a lot of erroneous info/rumor etc out there - some of it even comes from LEOs.

I learned enough basics to get my Utah permit to supplement my Va. CHP that's about it. Then I do a major search on any states I intend to visit.

By tomorrow evening you should have some good answers, maybe some early on in the day. Spend some time perusing the Utah threads, generally good stuff there.
 

Michael Hopkins

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2011
Messages
29
Location
Salt Lake City, UT
Loaded vs. Unloaded - I know without a permit I have to be two actions from firing (no round in the chamber, but a full mag)...is this still a loaded gun? Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I like details. :)

For Utah purposes, a weapon such as you described is unloaded. Since you have to 1.)Rack the slide and 2.)Pull the trigger to fire you have fulfilled the two mechanical actions from firing requirement. This is not for a revolver, obviously.

Hope that helps.
Mike
 

Grapeshot

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May 21, 2006
Messages
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Location
Valhalla
For Utah purposes, a weapon such as you described is unloaded. Since you have to 1.)Rack the slide and 2.)Pull the trigger to fire you have fulfilled the two mechanical actions from firing requirement. This is not for a revolver, obviously.

Hope that helps.
Mike

For future reference for my benefit -

1911 w/loaded and inserted mag, rd in the chamber w/ thumb safety engaged.

Does the act of disengaging the safety and squeezing the trigger also constitute the requisite two mechanical actions? If so that strikes me as strange because condition1, locked and loaded, is a ready to go situation to me.

With a SA or double action revolver how is this satisfied?
 

jpm84092

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
1,066
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
Clarification and an up to date link.

WELCOME to the Open Carry Forum and to the world of Open Carry.

In response to your question, unless you hold a valid Utah Concealed Firearm Permit (CFP), you may NOT have a round in the chamber of a semiautomatic pistol or revolver. In the case of the revolver, the adjacent cylinder chamber must be empty as well. So, it is not as simple as the two mechanical actions rule. So, no, a semiautomatic pistol in Condition 1 (Locked and Cocked) is NOT unloaded within the meaning of Utah Law.

A poster above provided a link to "dated" laws, some of which are no longer valid. The link below takes you to the required course materials for a Utah Concealed Firearm Permit and is the most recent as of today:

Link: http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/documents/MTC01032011.pdf

Expect this to change after the current Utah legislature goes into recess as several firearms laws have changed.

This forum is not a good venue for teaching all the nuances of open carry, so whether or not you desire a CFP, I recommend that you take the course. Many CFP Instructors hang out here and on www.utahconcealedcarry.com in the Training Forum.

As for the 2 meter hand held, you might be briefly mistaken for a security guard, but what you propose is not illegal. You may get local LEOs to ask you what the radio is though and whether or not it is capable of accessing the military or police portions of the 2 Meter Band.
 

Foxtrot_Gunner

New member
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
8
Location
Salt Lake City
In response to your question, unless you hold a valid Utah Concealed Firearm Permit (CFP), you may NOT have a round in the chamber of a semiautomatic pistol or revolver. So, no, a semiautomatic pistol in Condition 1 (Locked and Cocked) is NOT unloaded within the meaning of Utah Law.

So an unloaded gun is having the chamber EMPTY, but there can still be a full mag in the weapon?

This forum is not a good venue for teaching all the nuances of open carry, so whether or not you desire a CFP, I recommend that you take the course. Many CFP Instructors hang out here and on www.utahconcealedcarry.com in the Training Forum.

I'm taking a basic handguns class tomorrow and I will ask the instructor there about the CFP class too.

As for the 2 meter hand held, you might be briefly mistaken for a security guard, but what you propose is not illegal. You may get local LEOs to ask you what the radio is though and whether or not it is capable of accessing the military or police portions of the 2 Meter Band.

As for my radio and with most amateur radios I can receive military and police bands. I am also a member of R.A.C.E.S. which is established through the Utah Division of Homeland Security. That means in emergencies I can help relay and supply/transmit info and back-up communications for local, state, and federal authorities.

Thank you for the info and PDF link. It looks like I have a lot of reading and learning to do, but it's always worth being better prepared and informed.
 

jpm84092

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
1,066
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
For those lacking a Utah CFP, in the case of a semi-automatic pistol, if there is no round in the chamber, the magazine can be loaded to capacity and inside the firearm, but carry cannot be concealed. For those who hold a Utah CFP, a semi-automatic pistol may be carried, open or concealed, in Condition 1 (locked and cocked).

Without a Utah CFP, you must remain clear of Utah and Federal Gun Free School Zones, except when in your vehicle (Utah Castle Doctrine extends to you car).

I did not invest in my NRA and BCI ratings to make money. For some on this forum, I have been known to conduct the BCI CFP course for the price of my lunch at the Braza Grill (about $15).
 

rpyne

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
1,072
Location
Provo, Utah, USA
I would refer you to the definitive source:

76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
 

Foxtrot_Gunner

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Mar 8, 2011
Messages
8
Location
Salt Lake City
Thank you guys for the info. I have completed my course for basic handgun and will be going further to complete my concealed course even though I cannot get said permit. I am very interested in firearm laws and now more concerned about the issues of firearm laws in Utah than ever before.

I think I did well as I made 10 consecutive shots within about 3 inches after about 100 rounds in 5 round magazines (maybe 30 feet [not sure how the distance]). This is my first time and all and I feel really confident so far. I would like to meet other professional or more knowledgeable people to go shooting with though.

Do you think I am am being over confident or do I need to put another 100 or 1000 rounds though my sidearm?
 
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Kingfish

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Apr 10, 2007
Messages
1,276
Location
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Do you think I am am being over confident or do I need to put another 100 or 1000 rounds though my sidearm?
Only you can say when you are ready...Though I don't know that any of us are ever truly "ready". Preperation to carry is not just standing at the line putting holes in paper. You also want to train in drawing, racking and getting on target quickly with ammo in another room.
 

OfficerMatt

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
45
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
I did not invest in my NRA and BCI ratings to make money. For some on this forum, I have been known to conduct the BCI CFP course for the price of my lunch at the Braza Grill (about $15).

Am i correct in reading this? Does this mean if i take you out to lunch you can pass me off for my CFP? For me its been an issue of time and money to do the usual $45-65 CFP classes that take a few hours.
 

Grapeshot

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May 21, 2006
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Am i correct in reading this? Does this mean if i take you out to lunch you can pass me off for my CFP? For me its been an issue of time and money to do the usual $45-65 CFP classes that take a few hours.

Sure that you still get the class - would be illegal otherwise. Just a matter of barter.
 

Aknazer

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Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
Without a Utah CFP, you must remain clear of Utah and Federal Gun Free School Zones, except when in your vehicle (Utah Castle Doctrine extends to you car).

Does this mean that those of us with the UT CFP can cary in Utah and Federal Gun Free Zones (obviously only while in UT)? To me a gunfree zone is gun free regardless of your permit (unless you're something like LEO).
 
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colormered

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Messages
116
Location
Cache county, Utah, USA
That's the way it is.

You're correct. In Utah, with the Utah CFP, you can carry loaded, open or concealed, in any PUBLIC school from Kindergarten through University. PRIVATE schools, however, are a different story, and can prohibit what they choose.

Whether or not you'll be confronted by LEO's that may not be well informed of the law or just choose to enforce their opinion of what the law should be, is another matter entirely.
 

jpm84092

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Mar 5, 2010
Messages
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Location
Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
Am i correct in reading this? Does this mean if i take you out to lunch you can pass me off for my CFP? For me its been an issue of time and money to do the usual $45-65 CFP classes that take a few hours.

What it means is:

If I decide to take you on as a student, I will present the full Utah Concealed Firearm Permit Course, using the most recent course materials generated by the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification (enhanced by slides from the NRA Pistol Course and slides created by the Utah Bureau of Criminal Investigation for the purpose of teaching the CFP course) - and the course shall be conducted in-person - and will take approximately 4 hours (or longer if there are substantial questions). - And, my fee for conducting such course shall be lunch at the Braza Grill.

There is NO WAY that I, or any other reputable BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor, would ever "pass you off" for a lunch. Having said that, there is nothing in Utah law that prevents us from spending the full 4 hours at the Braza grill while I present the course on computer, one instructor with one student, with you looking at the course materials as published on BCI's site. That way, we both might get lunch and dinner for the price of lunch.
 
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