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Thread: Convntion center

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    Regular Member x1wildone's Avatar
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    Convntion center

    Does anyone know if the Kansas City Convention center is posted for firearms?

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    First, you'll have to tell us which one? Bartle Hall, the KCI Expo Center, we've got quite a few.

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    Regular Member x1wildone's Avatar
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    301 west 13th street Kansas City MO. would be the address.
    There website says Kansas City Convention Center.

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    That is Bartle Hall. I don't know if it's posted, and I won't be down there for a few weeks. You might get an answer from someone else. If it's posted, the words don't matter, but it needs to be at least 11x14 with 1" high letters for CCW. All states CCW's are honored in Missouri.

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    That is Bartle Hall. I don't know if it's posted, and I won't be down there for a few weeks. You might get an answer from someone else. If it's posted, the words don't matter, but it needs to be at least 11x14 with 1" high letters for CCW. All states CCW's are honored in Missouri.
    The size of the sign or the lettering is also irrelevant. A private property owner doesn't need to post a sign of a specific size or type to exercise his/her right to restrict who can enter his/her property. Since a "No Guns" sign of any type or size does not carry any force of law in Missouri, it doesn't matter much what the sign says or how large it is.

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    The size of the sign and letters does make a difference:

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5710000107.htm
    RSMO 571.107.1.(15) Any private property whose owner has posted the premises as being off-limits to concealed firearms by means of one or more signs displayed in a conspicuous place of a minimum size of eleven inches by fourteen inches with the writing thereon in letters of not less than one inch. The owner, business or commercial lessee, manager of a private business enterprise, or any other organization, entity, or person may prohibit persons holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer of the business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying a concealed firearm is prohibited. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. An employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed carry endorsement from carrying a concealed firearm in vehicles owned by the employer;
    But the Missouri laws on CCW are a little strange. There are a lot of places they declare as off-limits to firearms for CCW endorsement holders, but there is no punishment for doing it. In any event, if you are asked to leave, it just seems like good manners to do so. If you refuse to leave and the KCPD are called, you'll get trespassed, and probably a $500 fine.

    To be honest, I believe that the City of Kansas City MO owns that building, which would make it off limits due to RSMo 571.107.1.(6). I can't find proof though. If you have a CCW endorement, it follows the pattern above.

    Oddly enough, I can't find a prohibition against OC in a city building if you do not have a CCW, or I don't see it in RSMo 571.030 at least. Don't take my word for that though. I've not checked city codes either. But, I seem to remember that it is prohibited by city codes.

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    Regular Member mobodyguard's Avatar
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    yes it has signs posted that no firearms are allowed so if u can conceal carry do so if not leave your weapon in your car

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    Regular Member cash50's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    The size of the sign and letters does make a difference:

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5710000107.htm


    But the Missouri laws on CCW are a little strange. There are a lot of places they declare as off-limits to firearms for CCW endorsement holders, but there is no punishment for doing it. In any event, if you are asked to leave, it just seems like good manners to do so. If you refuse to leave and the KCPD are called, you'll get trespassed, and probably a $500 fine.

    To be honest, I believe that the City of Kansas City MO owns that building, which would make it off limits due to RSMo 571.107.1.(6). I can't find proof though. If you have a CCW endorement, it follows the pattern above.

    Oddly enough, I can't find a prohibition against OC in a city building if you do not have a CCW, or I don't see it in RSMo 571.030 at least. Don't take my word for that though. I've not checked city codes either. But, I seem to remember that it is prohibited by city codes.
    The size of the sign and letters do NOT make a difference. You can walk right past the sign, it's not trespassing until the ask you to leave for any reason, including carrying a weapon -openly or concealed- AND you refuse to leave.

    Even if it is a city owned building you can still go in carrying your weapon as long as you have your CCW. Read the rest of 571-107 that you posted, specifically Sec. 2.

    And lastly, as defined in the statute YOU posted, the 1st trespassing fine may not exceed $100.

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    I don't remember the fine amounts exactly, because I don't expect to ever pay those ;-) Personally, I'd rather work on improving relationships for CCW endorsement holders, so I'm going to follow the instructions to a T (even the implied ones).

    The rest of your discussion goes back to what you and I banter about all of the time. It boils down to this: If you do something in violation of RSMo, is it breaking the law if there is no penalty attached? I think it does, and evidently you don't. In either case, we're agreed that there's no penalty which I suppose is the important part, but I'd rather not unnecessarily antagonize the natives any more than I have to.

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    The size of the sign and letters does make a difference:
    No. The size and type of sign is completely irrelevant. It means absolutely nothing and has no force of law. In addition, a private property owner does NOT need a sign to restrict who can come onto his/her property, and with what and a "No Guns" sign neither increases, nor decreases, the property owners rights in any way.

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5710000107.htm

    But the Missouri laws on CCW are a little strange. There are a lot of places they declare as off-limits to firearms for CCW endorsement holders, but there is no punishment for doing it.
    That is because there is NOTHING in RSMO 571.107 that "declares" ANY place "off-limits" to CCW endorsement holders. Read the statute carefully and you will see that it simply defines places where your endorsement doesn't necessarily authorize you to carry. In reality, the ONLY places a Missouri CCW endorsement holder is prohibited by law from carrying are places where carrying is prohibited by Federal law, and on buses used for public transportation.

    In any event, if you are asked to leave, it just seems like good manners to do so.
    Absolutely. In fact, to do otherwise is unlawful.

    If you refuse to leave and the KCPD are called, you'll get trespassed, and probably a $500 fine.
    Actually, the first offense calls for a $100 fine, and that would be in addition to the fine the judge will hit you with for trespass.

    To be honest, I believe that the City of Kansas City MO owns that building, which would make it off limits due to RSMo 571.107.1.(6). I can't find proof though. If you have a CCW endorement, it follows the pattern above.

    Oddly enough, I can't find a prohibition against OC in a city building if you do not have a CCW, or I don't see it in RSMo 571.030 at least. Don't take my word for that though. I've not checked city codes either. But, I seem to remember that it is prohibited by city codes.
    City code can call for a prohibition of firearms in city buildings by CCW endorsement holders, but CANNOT specify any criminal penalties for it's violation. Again, all that the city could do would be to deny you entrance to the building, or ask you to leave if you've already entered (which they could do even if they DIDN'T have the signs posted). Obviously, if you refused to leave when asked, you would be guilty of trespass.

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    Regular Member x1wildone's Avatar
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    I have reviewed the regs at handgun law us for the state of MO. and have not found anything that would prohibit carry at the convention center. It does not fit any of the descriptions 507.107 1thru 17.
    Unless some one could verify that it is a private building..
    And even at that,there is the state preemption 21.750. regarding cities and counties.
    I do have colorado concealed carry and so plan on cc while visiting.

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    Only CC statues are preempted, OC statutes are not. I'm guessing you know that, but it's good to mention for anyone who might be reading.

    Since it's posted for no weapons 571.107.1.(15) applies. Since I believe it's a City owned building, and KCMO has no CC in their city owned buildings (http://library.municode.com/index.as...eName=Missouri Sec 50-269), 571.107.1.(6) also applies.

    As we've mentioned before, the statutes in 571.107.1.(1)-(17) are pretty much without teeth if you have a CC endorsement. The worst that can happen is that they can ask you to leave. If you disobey that, you can get trespassed (like anywhere else in MO) and there's additional penalties if you have a CCW endorsement and are carrying (openly or concealed). You should probably expect to get some extra harassment too, since you're out of state, and carrying in a city building. It's wrong, but not much you can do about it.

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    Regular Member x1wildone's Avatar
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    This would be the reason for state preemption, 21.750 the sign would not be valid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by x1wildone View Post
    This would be the reason for state preemption, 21.750 the sign would not be valid.
    I'm not sure what you're getting at. 21.750.1 preempts everything related to firearms, ammo, etc except as in subsection 3. Subsection 3 reserves open carry and discharge, so that subdivisions can regulate those.

    That has nothing to do with making a sign valid or not. If if did though, 571.107.1.(15) would bring it right back. That's a state statute, so there's no preemption involved.

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    one of your partners at work works for the county drug task force on the weekend. assault rifles all that. mon-fri different job.

    i carry my extra mag in a holder on my left side
    he is in our office today and asks "thats not against the law with your conceal permit? you can show your clip or ammo"

    im like.....

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    Regular Member x1wildone's Avatar
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    This is why I say that Mo. laws are obviously lawyer speak.
    Missouri Revised statutes 21.750.2 and 21.750.3 would make the sign at the convention center unlawful.
    Denver try's to do the same thing at such places as the Denver zoo, by posting a sign that firearms are not allowed.
    Co. has state preemption that applies every where except Denver, but Denver still has to allow concealed carry.

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    Regular Member x1wildone's Avatar
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    MRS 21.760.2
    2. No county, city, town, village, municipality, or other political subdivision of this state shall adopt any order, ordinance or regulation concerning in any way the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permit, registration, taxation other than sales and compensating use taxes or other controls on firearms, components, ammunition, and supplies except as provided in subsection 3 of this section.

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    Regular Member x1wildone's Avatar
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    Is this convention center a private property ? Owned by ST.Louis

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    Regular Member x1wildone's Avatar
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    Is this convention center a private property ? Owned by ST.Louis
    Or a public property?

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    Quote Originally Posted by x1wildone View Post
    Is this convention center a private property ? Owned by ST.Louis
    Or a public property?
    I'm 99% sure it's public property, owned by the City of Kansas City, MO (you do know which end of the state you're going to, right?) I haven't been able to find anything that says so definitively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by x1wildone View Post
    MRS 21.760.2
    2. No county, city, town, village, municipality, or other political subdivision of this state shall adopt any order, ordinance or regulation concerning in any way the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permit, registration, taxation other than sales and compensating use taxes or other controls on firearms, components, ammunition, and supplies except as provided in subsection 3 of this section.
    But, they aren't making any orders, ordinance, or regulation, except as provided by the state statutes. The ability for political subdivisions to make their facilities off limits to guns is provided for in RSMo 571.107.1.(6) as we already discussed. Also, the ability to make private property off limits is in 571.107.1.(15).

    Still, the oddball prohibitions are in effect, where violating the law carries no punishment, unless you're really stupid.

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    Regular Member x1wildone's Avatar
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    I don't know why I said ST.Louis.
    Anyway If it is public property then Kansas City can not even post a a sign.It is meaningless.
    15 talks about private property and their rights.

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