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Thread: The way it will really be - unless....

  1. #1
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    The way it will really be - unless....

    I just thought I would pass on "the way it will really be"

    Greetings from Personal Protection Academy,

    Iím receiving lots of requests for updates on a Wisconsin permit-to-carry bill. Itís great to hear from so many, but with over 3000 clients, Iím worried Iím going to be apologizing for my delays in responding during coming months. Thereís a better way. This note provides a self-help and MUCH more timely method for you to keep tabs on a bill as it winds its way through the halls of Wisconsin government.

    The Wisconsin Legislative Notification System allows anyone the opportunity to follow legislation by receiving daily or weekly automated email updates for specific legislative activities. Subscribe to these updates here: http://notify.legis.wisconsin.gov.

    Establish your account and login information. Then, click on the link Add Items at the top of the page to choose items to follow. You can choose items by Proposal, Committee, Author, or Subject and can select the activities for which you would like to receive notifications. The key words I use to follow our topics are Ö weapon, weapons, concealed, firearm, and firearms. If you determine others yield more info please let me know and Iíll pass them along to others.

    Below is a rough outline of the legislative steps you and I should be tracking as a bill progresses.

    1. A primary bill author will be designated in the Senate (or Assembly). If introduced in the Senate, the author will probably by Pam Galloway. If in the Assembly, it could possibly be Scott Gunderson.

    2. The author will request an initial laymanís draft be completed by the Legislative Reference Bureau.

    3. Various rewrites will be undertaken.

    4. The bill will be introduced in the Senate (or Assembly).

    5. The bill will be referred by that bodyís leader to a relevant standing committee.

    6. The committee chairperson will schedule a public hearing on the bill.

    7. The committee chair will schedule a committee vote on the bill.

    8. The committee will pass the bill.

    9. The bill will be submitted to the respective bodyís Rules Committee to determine if it should move forward.

    10. The bill will be forwarded to the floor for debate.

    11. That floor will consider amendments.

    12. The bill will be passed by a simple majority in that body.

    13. The bill will be forwarded to the other body, the Assembly (or Senate).

    14. The bill will be referred by that bodyís leader to a relevant standing committee.

    15. The committee chairperson will schedule a public hearing on the bill.

    16. The committee chair will schedule a committee vote on the bill.

    17. The committee will pass the bill.

    18. The bill will be submitted to the respective bodyís Rules Committee to determine if it should move forward.

    19. The bill will be forwarded to the floor for debate.

    20. The floor will consider amendments.

    21. Bills from the Assembly and Senate will be synchronized.

    22. A synchronized bill will be passed by a simple majority in the second body.

    23. The synchronized bill will be forwarded to Governor Walker for signing.

    24. The bill will become Wisconsin law.

    25. An agency will be designated to design and manage the permitting process.

    26. The permitting process will be sent to a committee to work out specific procedures for qualifying training curriculums and trainers, permit application processes, and the like.

    27. The final process will be converted to type.

    28. The process will be sent to the Joint Committee for review of administrative rules.

    29. Permitting agency personnel will be hired, offices opened, and forms and licenses developed.

    30. Finally, the State will begin processing citizen applications.

    Itís a long path that could be accomplished in a month, but is more likely to take a few. Whatever the case, Iím confident the final bill will look much like the permit-to-carry course we conduct, including lawful self-defense education, great big dose of safety, handgun training and shooting fundamentals, a live-fire component, and info on methods and mechanics of safe carry, concealment, and storage.

    Please let me know questions.

    With very best regards,

    Michael Bender

    Personal Protection Academy

    (888) 657-4668

    PPA-WI.com

  2. #2
    Regular Member 1FASTC4's Avatar
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    Thanks. This guy is no ally of mine. No doubt he would have CCW permit requirements enacted.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1FASTC4 View Post
    Thanks. This guy is no ally of mine. No doubt he would have CCW permit requirements enacted.
    You bet. In fact last fall, he pre-sold his WI CCW course for $199.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...teering-begins
    Last edited by phred; 03-08-2011 at 02:30 PM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member civilwarguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    You bet. In fact last fall, he pre-sold his WI CCW course for $199.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...teering-begins
    Wouldnt want to be him when they pass CC and he has to refund all that cash

  5. #5
    Regular Member Pyro01's Avatar
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    Sad indeed, I really hope constitutional carry passes instead of getting stinkin' permits.
    Join Wisconsin Carry today, defend your rights!

    Wisconsin Carry member since March, 2011

    "The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
    - Thomas Jefferson

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    I took his level 1 handgun course (UT non resident) just because I wanted to be able to carry in other states. Needless to say, I will no longer be purchasing any of his other classes.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  7. #7
    Regular Member Vandil's Avatar
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    Good info on the notification service none the less.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    the training lobby is strong !
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

  9. #9
    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    We must make noise to be heard. Lots of noise. If we do not let them know what we want in no uncertain terms, we will get what we get.

  10. #10
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    I met bender, and I believe that is basically a fitting name. He is talented at the fast talk, and he is definitely a great salesman. But I believe that in order to help people understand self defense with a firearm, you have to have experience defending yourself with a firearm. Anybody can teach someone how to shoot. But aside from the mechanics of shooting, you have to effectively translate the other parts of self defense. That is what makes instructors like Masad Ayoob so effective and highly sought after.

    I shoot pistols to the tune of more than 10,000 rounds a year on average. But it is being able to relate my self defense and combat experience that makes me an effective instructor. It is also that experience that allows me to train shooters to be effective in self defense.

    The thing that bender is missing in all of this is that no matter if it is permit carry or constitutional carry, the end game is all about saving the lives of good people. NOT about making sure you can make money off of those who want to keep themselves and their families safe.

    My opinion is that this fact alone takes him out of the relm of someone who wants to further gun rights, and places him firmly in the relm of nothing more than a business.
    I am Calico Jack,,,, And I approve this message!
    (Paid for by the blood of patriots, and Calico Jack Defense)
    Calico Jack Defense

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Exactly my thoughts Jack. When I took his class, I did not really care for him. I much preferred learning from Bob Llanas at Fletcher's. He taught me actually how to shoot rather than the laws, more laws, other blah, blah, blah, etc. Some stuff was good, like don't talk to police or to say you think you are having a heart attack so you don't talk to police immediately.

    I want to learn defensive shooting!
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  12. #12
    Regular Member johnny amish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardballer View Post
    We must make noise to be heard. Lots of noise. If we do not let them know what we want in no uncertain terms, we will get what we get.
    Great advise.
    If we don't stay in constant contact with our lawmakers they will ignore us. It is my lifes goal right now to be a pain in the arss to Kapanke and Nerison. They are under no missunderstanding what my intentions are. It is up to all of to do the same...
    "To sin by silence, when we should protest makes cowards out of men."
    Ella Wheeler Cox


    We must contact our lawmakers today, tomorrow and the next day to remind them of Constitutional Carry.
    Laws are not written because of the actions of many, they are wrtiten because of the inactions of many.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Exactly my thoughts Jack. When I took his class, I did not really care for him. I much preferred learning from Bob Llanas at Fletcher's. He taught me actually how to shoot rather than the laws, more laws, other blah, blah, blah, etc. Some stuff was good, like don't talk to police or to say you think you are having a heart attack so you don't talk to police immediately.

    I want to learn defensive shooting!
    I took a CCW class 4 years ago...good stuff was taught,the laws, etc... & I took a Action pistol concepts 1 & the Advanced class, lot's of good Defensive drills in those classes.,Shooting from Cover & Concealment, etc. Training classes are great & valuable knowledge is taught but training should not be mandated.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

  14. #14
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    Exactly my thoughts Jack. When I took his class, I did not really care for him. I much preferred learning from Bob Llanas at Fletcher's. He taught me actually how to shoot rather than the laws, more laws, other blah, blah, blah, etc. Some stuff was good, like don't talk to police or to say you think you are having a heart attack so you don't talk to police immediately.

    I want to learn defensive shooting!
    If you get up this way I will teach you. Lol

    Aside from that, I like the guys from Fletchers, if they don't know something they admit it.

    As far as training goes, starting this summer I will be starting a series of seminars that will be like $50 each, and will cover stuff in detail, like stress shooting versus "combat shooting", and the psychology of self defense. I will also be doing 100% shooting seminars. And there is always the added bonus that if we get constitutional carry I will be doing CCW classes for free.

    Money don't mean nada compared to the safety of good people.
    I am Calico Jack,,,, And I approve this message!
    (Paid for by the blood of patriots, and Calico Jack Defense)
    Calico Jack Defense

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    If you get up this way I will teach you. Lol

    Aside from that, I like the guys from Fletchers, if they don't know something they admit it.

    As far as training goes, starting this summer I will be starting a series of seminars that will be like $50 each, and will cover stuff in detail, like stress shooting versus "combat shooting", and the psychology of self defense. I will also be doing 100% shooting seminars. And there is always the added bonus that if we get constitutional carry I will be doing CCW classes for free.

    Money don't mean nada compared to the safety of good people.
    Where are you located ? I might be interested in your classes too
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

  16. #16
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock34 View Post
    Where are you located ? I might be interested in your classes too
    I am in Minocqua. I drop 25% for members of Wisconsin Carry Inc and I have a hook up with the AmericInn (the only gun friendly/open carry friendly hotel in town). I have been working with them to make sure they know the laws and will likely be training the staff on open carry so there is no bad LEO encounters while we are there.

    I also already do free open carry classes. And I would be doing free seminars if I did not have to pay for the space.
    Last edited by CalicoJack10; 03-09-2011 at 12:00 AM.
    I am Calico Jack,,,, And I approve this message!
    (Paid for by the blood of patriots, and Calico Jack Defense)
    Calico Jack Defense

  17. #17
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    So how does this work? Do you teach during the week? How long are the classes? How many people do you need for a class?
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

  18. #18
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    The length of the class depends on the course you wanna take. The seminars will be a couple/few hours. I prefer private classes, if not private than I like a minimum number of attendees. And I am 33 and retired military, so I schedule the classes anytime I am not coaching special olympics or spending time with my daughter. So I have a lot of time to do courses.

    I have been considering group classes, but everyone who takes a course has their own idiosyncrasies so I like to spend as much one on one time as is needed.

    I know that what I charge for classes puts me up as an outcast in the firearms instructor community. But like I said, I am far more concerned with people than I am with lining my pockets.

    P.S. Phred, #5 was awesome, I laughed myself to tears over that one!
    Last edited by CalicoJack10; 03-09-2011 at 12:42 AM.
    I am Calico Jack,,,, And I approve this message!
    (Paid for by the blood of patriots, and Calico Jack Defense)
    Calico Jack Defense

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    If you get up this way I will teach you. Lol

    Aside from that, I like the guys from Fletchers, if they don't know something they admit it.

    As far as training goes, starting this summer I will be starting a series of seminars that will be like $50 each, and will cover stuff in detail, like stress shooting versus "combat shooting", and the psychology of self defense. I will also be doing 100% shooting seminars. And there is always the added bonus that if we get constitutional carry I will be doing CCW classes for free.

    Money don't mean nada compared to the safety of good people.
    I will have to take you up on that this summer. Just pistol or do you also teach long guns?
    Last edited by protias; 03-09-2011 at 12:03 PM.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  20. #20
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Here is the general list of what I offer:

    Home Firearms Safety
    Basic Marksmanship
    Basic Handgun
    Basic Rifle
    Basic Shotgun
    Tactical Handgun Refresher
    Tactical Handgun
    Tactical Shotgun Refresher
    Tactical Shotgun
    Tactical Carbine Refresher
    Tactical Carbine
    Tactical Precision Rifle Refresher
    Tactical Precision Rifle
    Winchester/NRA Marksmanship Program (For score Keeping and Certification)
    Skeet/Trap/Clay
    Precision Shotgun
    Smallbore Rifle/Pistol
    Large Bore Rifle
    Precision Pistol
    Precision Shotgun
    Fundamentals of Open / Concealed Carry
    Open / Concealed Carry Refresher
    Open / Concealed Carry (Advanced)
    Hunters One Shot One Kill Course
    Hunters Marksmanship
    Hunters "Back Up Gun"
    Unarmed Self Defense
    Armed Self Defense
    In Home Event Planning
    Lock/Fire/Alarm Advise and planning
    Basic Side Arm Gunsmithing (For people who want to get more firmilliar with their side arm)

    If things work out and I can get a store front, I will also be building custom tactical and precision weapons, as well as hand engraving firearms.

    I also have a free open carry course for those who want training and already (or want to) open carry in Wisconsin, and as always, if we do get constitutional carry, I will be teaching a free concealed carry course (Depending on if I have to pay to teach it).

    I am not a salesman, I am a marksman, and as such I am not very good at this business stuff. But I also don't really care about the money too much. I am far more concerned with making sure we continue to further our 2A rights. And in my opinion the best way i can do that is to make it so that those that do carry, are elite if it ever comes to a situation where they have to use their side arm.

    That is also why I am constantly probing my legislature (Many of whom expect my weekly calls) and work diligently with local businesses to further our rights and keep "No Firearms" signs from going up in my area.
    I am Calico Jack,,,, And I approve this message!
    (Paid for by the blood of patriots, and Calico Jack Defense)
    Calico Jack Defense

  21. #21
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    The outline of the process is right on, with one "possible" exception. Instead of two public hearings (one for Senate, one for Assembly) there'll likely be just one joint committee hearing. That's how the last two bills (the two vetoed by Doyle) progressed. I was at those hearings. You wouldn't believe some of the rantings of the anti-gunners that had more to do with banning guns altogether, rather than allowing CC. But they were vastly outnumbered by pro-CCW people, and passed through those committees with little trouble.

    When a bill finally comes up, and the hearing(s) is scheduled, we need a HUGE turnout. If you have something to say ("testify") you must sign up to do so. Everyone gets their time at the microphone. Normally, those that represent an organization go first, followed by individuals who want to put their 2 cents in.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by safcrkr View Post
    The outline of the process is right on, with one "possible" exception. Instead of two public hearings (one for Senate, one for Assembly) there'll likely be just one joint committee hearing. That's how the last two bills (the two vetoed by Doyle) progressed. I was at those hearings. You wouldn't believe some of the rantings of the anti-gunners that had more to do with banning guns altogether, rather than allowing CC. But they were vastly outnumbered by pro-CCW people, and passed through those committees with little trouble.

    When a bill finally comes up, and the hearing(s) is scheduled, we need a HUGE turnout. If you have something to say ("testify") you must sign up to do so. Everyone gets their time at the microphone. Normally, those that represent an organization go first, followed by individuals who want to put their 2 cents in.
    Count me in to be at the Hearing, I live in Green Bay so maybe when the time comes we can car pool.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

  23. #23
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    I will go too, if for no other reason than to be a thorn in the sides of all the money grubbing instructors. I will even dress in a button down and tie instead of my usual cutoff t-shirt and Jeans.
    I am Calico Jack,,,, And I approve this message!
    (Paid for by the blood of patriots, and Calico Jack Defense)
    Calico Jack Defense

  24. #24
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    From another instructor

    GREETINGS FROM BDJ Ltd,

    Iím receiving lots of requests for updates on a Wisconsin permit-to-carry bill. Itís great to hear from you, but Iím worried that I'll be apologizing for my delays in responding during coming months. There is a better way. This note provides a self-help and MUCH more timely method for you to keep tabs on a bill as it winds its way through the halls of Wisconsin government.

    I would like to take a moment to thank, and give due credit, to Mike Bender of PPA, for his efforts in assembling the following...

    For the record I am just passing on his work to you.

    The Wisconsin Legislative Notification System allows anyone the opportunity to follow legislation by receiving daily or weekly automated email updates for specific legislative activities. Subscribe to these updates here: http://notify.legis.wisconsin.gov.

    Establish your account and login information. Then, click on the link Add Items at the top of the page to choose items to follow. You can choose items by Proposal, Committee, Author, or Subject and can select the activities for which you would like to receive notifications. The key words I use to follow our topics are Ö weapon, weapons, concealed, firearm, and firearms. If you determine others yield more info please let me know and Iíll pass them along to others.

    Below is a rough outline of the legislative steps you and I should be tracking as a bill progresses.

    1. A primary bill author will be designated in the Senate (or Assembly). If introduced in the Senate, the author will probably by Pam Galloway. If in the Assembly, it is unknown at this time.

    2. The author will request an initial laymanís draft be completed by the Legislative Reference Bureau.

    3. Various rewrites will be undertaken.

    4. The bill will be introduced in the Senate (or Assembly).

    5. The bill will be referred by that bodyís leader to a relevant standing committee.

    6. The committee chairperson will schedule a public hearing on the bill.

    7. The committee chair will schedule a committee vote on the bill.

    8. The committee will pass the bill.

    9. The bill will be submitted to the respective bodyís Rules Committee to determine if it should move forward.

    10. The bill will be forwarded to the floor for debate.

    11. That floor will consider amendments.

    12. The bill will be passed by a simple majority in that body.

    13. The bill will be forwarded to the other body, the Assembly (or Senate).

    14. The bill will be referred by that bodyís leader to a relevant standing committee.

    15. The committee chairperson will schedule a public hearing on the bill.

    16. The committee chair will schedule a committee vote on the bill.

    17. The committee will pass the bill.

    18. The bill will be submitted to the respective bodyís Rules Committee to determine if it should move forward.

    19. The bill will be forwarded to the floor for debate.

    20. The floor will consider amendments.

    21. Bills from the Assembly and Senate will be synchronized.

    22. A synchronized bill will be passed by a simple majority in the second body.

    23. The synchronized bill will be forwarded to Governor Walker for signing.

    24. The bill will become Wisconsin law.

    25. An agency will be designated to design and manage the permitting process.

    26. The permitting process will be sent to a committee to work out specific procedures for qualifying training curriculums and trainers, permit application processes, and the like.

    27. The final process will be converted to type.

    28. The process will be sent to the Joint Committee for review of administrative rules.

    29. Permitting agency personnel will be hired, offices opened, and forms and licenses developed.

    30. Finally, the State will begin processing citizen applications.

    Itís a long path that could be accomplished in a month, but is more likely to take a few. Whatever the case, Iím confident the final bill will look much like the permit-to-carry course we conduct, including lawful self-defense education, great big dose of safety, handgun training and shooting fundamentals, a live-fire component, and info on methods and mechanics of safe carry, concealment, and storage.

    Take Care & Keep Shootin',
    Yours,
    Bill Schmitz

    Chairman WCCA--Wisconsin Concealed Carry Association
    NRA Firearms and Personal Defense Instructor
    AACFI Wisconsin Senior Firearms Instructor
    Minnesota DPS Certified Firearms Instructor
    Utah BCI Certified Firearms Instructor
    Utah National Instructors Team
    www.BDJ-Ltd.com
    920-295-9435
    "How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual... as a trustworthy and productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded, controlled, supervised, and taken care of."
    --Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp (TX)

  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    With "friends" like this, who needs enemies?
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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