Could this be a wedge to eliminating carry prohibition on state school campus?

t33j · Mar 9, 2011

Well Bob doesn't necessarily have to be a "traditional" student. I suppose anyone could apply, get accepted, and add the cheapest course to his schedule to achieve standing. Shouldn't be too significant compared to legal costs.

Repeater · Mar 9, 2011

paramedic70002 said:
I wonder, suppose "Bob" is a student who gets expelled for carrying a gun legally.

Does "Bob" have have recourse through the courts to fight the expulsion officially, not a civil suit?

"Bob" could base his argument on his inalienable right to armed self defense a la Heller, McDonald, VA Constitution Section 13, US Second Amendment.

This of course assumes you can find a student willing to throw away a college education for the cause.

Well, suppose 'Jane Doe' is a full-time student, and has a valid Virginia CHP. She has expressed, in writing, her preference to carry for her own personal protection. The administration denies her request to carry. She obeys all policies. Later, she is brutally raped.

She file suit in federal court, alleging the 'No Gun' policy created a danger for her and others like her. This suit invokes the 'State Created Danger' doctrine, and is one of the few ways to circumvent DeShaney. You can look it up if you like. Even though denying students the right to carry is an affirmative act, the Fourth Circuit is unlikely to be helpful.

skidmark · Mar 9, 2011

That's why filing in Federal court is NOT the way to proceed.

A STATE agency violated her STATE rights (since her 2A rights to keep/bear and self defense are incorporated against the States).

Forget the 4th Circuit. Let's look at what the Va Court of Appeals and the Va Supreme Court would say.

stay safe.

marshaul · Mar 9, 2011

Repeater said:
Well, suppose 'Jane Doe' is a full-time student, and has a valid Virginia CHP. She has expressed, in writing, her preference to carry for her own personal protection. The administration denies her request to carry. She obeys all policies. Later, she is brutally raped.

She file suit in federal court, alleging the 'No Gun' policy created a danger for her and others like her. This suit invokes the 'State Created Danger' doctrine, and is one of the few ways to circumvent DeShaney. You can look it up if you like. Even though denying students the right to carry is an affirmative act, the Fourth Circuit is unlikely to be helpful.

Unfortunately, this is one of those scenarios that just isn't worth having pan out.

2a4all · Mar 10, 2011

skidmark said:
Add this to your consideration -

- students may register to vote in the locality where they attend college
- therefore the school is their official residence
- your residence may also be your abode. In the case of college students who register in the locality where they attend school residence and abode would be one and the same
- under Va law you can CC without a CHP in your abode and the curtilige thereof.

Age restrictions do not apply while in your abode and the curtilige thereof.

Repeater · Mar 10, 2011

skidmark said:
That's why filing in Federal court is NOT the way to proceed.

A STATE agency violated her STATE rights (since her 2A rights to keep/bear and self defense are incorporated against the States).

Forget the 4th Circuit. Let's look at what the Va Court of Appeals and the Va Supreme Court would say.

stay safe.

Well yes, except the state could 'remove' to federal court, so you end up there anyway.

Meanwhile, the Rutherford Institute has gone ahead and filed a lawsuit in federal court on behalf of Aaron Tobey:

Attorneys for The Rutherford Institute have filed a civil rights lawsuit in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia on behalf of a college student who was arrested for disorderly conduct after removing his shirt at Richmond International Airport (RIC) and exposing a portion of the Fourth Amendment written on his chest.

The lawsuit alleges that agents of the TSA and RIC police deprived Tobey of his rights under the First and Fourth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution. The complaint also charges the named defendants with false imprisonment and malicious prosecution.

In the complaint filed in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia, Institute attorneys allege that Tobey was arrested and held for questioning without sufficient cause in violation of the Fourth Amendment's protection against unreasonable searches and seizures. Institute attorneys also argue that Tobey's First Amendment rights were violated when he was arrested because of the content and manner of his protest. Additionally, Institute attorneys charge that federal and state officials failed to adequately train law enforcement officers stationed at RIC, resulting in Tobey's unlawful arrest.

I wonder if the Surrey bullies are paying attention?

marshaul · Mar 11, 2011

skidmark said:
Add this to your consideration -

- students may register to vote in the locality where they attend college
- therefore the school is their official residence
- your residence may also be your abode. In the case of college students who register in the locality where they attend school residence and abode would be one and the same
- under Va law you can CC without a CHP in your abode and the curtilige thereof

Now comes the questions -

- what are the boundaries of the curtilige of one's abode if the student lives in on-campus housing and there is a dining facility separate from the residence facility? (think separate dining hall or student union where students may use meal plan)

I assume these would be the same as other shared areas, which are definitely outside one's curtilage.

- what are the boundaries of the curtilige of one's abode if the student lives in on-campus housing and local custom and practice is to use a separate facility (again, think student union) for socialization and recreation, as opposed to doing so in the dorm room?

I think the dorm is still a shared area, "public" so far as residents of the dorm go, and is therefore outside a resident's curtilage.

- what are the boundaries of the curtilige of one's abode if the student lives in on-campus housing and one is required to park one's vehicle other than immediately outside the residence facility? (as in the case of MWC a parking deck located on the other side of a major highway, or the parking lots of GMU, JMU, UVa, etc.)
- what are the boundaries of the curtilige of one's abode if the student lives in on-campus housing and the place where mail is regularly received is located in another facility? (don't know much about this except how the set-up was at NC State when I attended eons ago - mailboxes were not in the dorms but at the student union)
- what are the boundaries of the curtilige of one's abode if the student lives in on-campus housing and<insert other conditions/scenario as you can imagine them>?

I'm not sure if I see what you're getting at. In California, I'm certain that one's car, if it is parked on the street or on an unenclosed driveway, is outside one's curtilage. The mailbox certainly is.

In California, one's curtilage is limited to areas attached to the house, and enclosed so as to prevent legal entry across the boundary. As far as I know, it is the same in Virginia.

Grapeshot · Mar 11, 2011

marshaul said:
In California, one's curtilage is limited to areas attached to the house, and enclosed so as to prevent legal entry across the boundary. As far as I know, it is the same in Virginia.

This is a real fuzzy area, more prone to be interpreted/misinterpretated under real estate law.

In my experience in Virgina and North Carolina, curtilage most often is used to mean those areas legally under your control which would include the land and anything built upon it within the metes and bounds of a private home lot, whether fenced or not.

With farm and agricultural land, the application seems much less definitive. Would like the definition to be specifically addressed by a real estate attorney.

skidmark · Mar 11, 2011

Grapeshot said:
This is a real fuzzy area, more prone to be interpreted/misinterpretated under real estate law.

In my experience in Virgina and North Carolina, curtilage most often is used to mean those areas legally under your control which would include the land and anything built upon it within the metes and bounds of a private home lot, whether fenced or not.

With farm and agricultural land, the application seems much less definitive. Would like the definition to be specifically addressed by a real estate attorney.

No, I do NOT want a definition based on real estate law. The case law in Virginia, as it regards self defense and firearms, has already been laid down, which is why I brought up the issue. see, for example http://www.virginia1774.org/FortunevCommonwealth.html

What I wanted was the application of existing case law to the special and unique circumstances of a student boarding and residing on a "typical" college campus, where the location of where typical, usual and everyday activities take place in locations spread across a vast expanse of space and the time necessary to traverse the campus to carry them out. In other words, college students boarding on college campuses who have taken up legal residence on the college campus must/ought to be seen as a special class whose circumstances do not meet the "typical" definitions applied to those residing off-campus in houses or apartment dwellings.

stay safe.

sultan62 · Mar 13, 2011

Just to throw this in for your consideration, last year, students were required to complete the census for the area they attended school if they did so full time.

Not sure exactly how this might play into the current situation, as it was a federal census.

marshaul · Mar 13, 2011

skidmark said:
No, I do NOT want a definition based on real estate law. The case law in Virginia, as it regards self defense and firearms, has already been laid down, which is why I brought up the issue. see, for example http://www.virginia1774.org/FortunevCommonwealth.html

Hmm. The actual meaning of "curtilage" wasn't specified there.

The definition I used was from the context of firearms, but of course California is not Virginia.

On the other hand, by definition and etymological analysis, it seems to be supportable.

For example:

curtilage |ˈkərtl-ij|
noun Law
an area of land attached to a house and forming one enclosure with it : the roads within the curtilage of the development site.
ORIGIN Middle English : from Anglo-Norman French, variant of Old French courtillage, from courtil ‘small court,’ from cort ‘court.’

Do you have any more precedent to share?

skidmark · Mar 13, 2011

@Sultan - being required to complete the federal census where they attend school just adds more weight to my proposition that they reside on campus and therefore Heller/McDonald apply to them at least inside their room(s).

@Marshaul - Fortune gives hints rather than a clear definition, which for my purposes is precisely what the doctor ordered. There are several reasons why there is no cut-and-dried definition with precise distances or features specified. Instead, I'm looking at where certain everyday ativities take place in relation to the whole of the campus and looking to see how far the concept can literally be stretched before it breaks apart. While it certainly does not cover the entire campus, I contend it can reach quite a bit of the ground.

stay safe.

paramedic70002 · Mar 13, 2011

A long time ago I read that a legal definition of curtilage was that part of your property that could not be trespassed upon without intruding through or over a fence.

Just my 1 cents worth...

Grapeshot · Mar 13, 2011

paramedic70002 said:
A long time ago I read that a legal definition of curtilage was that part of your property that could not be trespassed upon without intruding through or over a fence.

Just my 1 cents worth...

The fence, wall or barrier aspect is more archaic than what I see in usage today.

marshaul · Mar 13, 2011

Grapeshot said:
The fence, wall or barrier aspect is more archaic than what I see in usage today.

In California that remains precisely the defining characteristic.

Not Virginia, I know.

skidmark · Mar 14, 2011

marshaul said:
In California that remains precisely the defining characteristic.

Not Virginia, I know.

So in California if I do not have a fence around my lot I don't have any curtilege?

Kinda sucks.

stay safe.

marshaul · Mar 14, 2011

skidmark said:
So in California if I do not have a fence around my lot I don't have any curtilege?

Kinda sucks.

Yup. If I'm CC at home and I step into the backyard I'm legal, but the front driveway and I'm a felon (school zone). :uhoh:

Grapeshot · Mar 14, 2011

marshaul said:
Yup. If I'm CC at home and I step into the backyard I'm legal, but the front driveway and I'm a felon (school zone). :uhoh:

Now that really does make sense...

darthmord · Mar 14, 2011

marshaul said:
Yup. If I'm CC at home and I step into the backyard I'm legal, but the front driveway and I'm a felon (school zone). :uhoh:

Now that just makes plain sense... :banghead:

Apparently the idea of "Your house, your rules" doesn't apply.

Though on the fence part... does it actually have to obstruct passage or just delineate a boundary? Because a nice stone / brick edging of your entire property is quite decorative and functional.

marshaul · Mar 14, 2011

darthmord said:
Though on the fence part... does it actually have to obstruct passage or just delineate a boundary? Because a nice stone / brick edging of your entire property is quite decorative and functional.

As I understand it, it has to have the effect of any unauthorized crossing of it being trespassing.

So, a fence that you can easily climb over will do it, if the fence is totally closed and it's clear that one is not permitted to cross its boundaries.

Could this be a wedge to eliminating carry prohibition on state school campus?

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