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Thread: 911 and the law...

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    911 and the law...

    Out of curiosity, where in the law does it say one must call 911? Let us suppose that I have averted a crime via self-defense. If I call a police/state system to report a successfully averted crime, am I waiving my right to silence, or my right to representation by an attorney. 911 calls are recorded and used as evidence, as is everything you say. I looked and cannot find a statute that says one must call 911, but how do I request an ambulance, maybe the criminal has a chance because I used a 9mm or maybe he got me and I need help. If I say the wrong thing being as how I might be scared to death, or if I am to calm it is all recorded and used against me. What to do?

    I would imagine that comments of bury the body or some such really wouldn't be very constructive. A seemingly reasonable suggestion has been to have an attorney on retainer, call him, let him call 911 and come to speak for you. But in reality I don't know any lawyer that hands out a home number, and if somebody attacked me at 2 am would an attorney really come?
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Hey somebody must be working through the book I lent him today!

    For those not in the know some of the postulated questions and discussion points from this come from "After You Shoot: Your Gun's Hot, The Perp's Not, Now What?" by Alan Korwin.

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    anytime you draw your arm, or are attacked and use self defense (IMHO) i would call the po po...if you did nothing but defend yourself, it shouldnt matter wether you have a lawyer or not, and if you need one at some point, well, you did nothing wrong. so again why worry about it? file a report and be done with it

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    If I say the wrong thing being as how I might be scared to death, or if I am to calm it is all recorded and used against me. What to do?
    Sounds like you are a PRIME candidate for:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...Sterling-VA-85
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    Sounds like you are a PRIME candidate for:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...Sterling-VA-85
    I was thinking about this and would love to attend, but this is on the other side of the state.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC_Biggs View Post
    anytime you draw your arm, or are attacked and use self defense (IMHO) i would call the po po...if you did nothing but defend yourself, it shouldnt matter wether you have a lawyer or not, and if you need one at some point, well, you did nothing wrong. so again why worry about it? file a report and be done with it
    The "I did nothing wrong" approach might not be the best thought process. Look at Skidmark, Gerald Ung, probably a few others.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Hey somebody must be working through the book I lent him today!

    For those not in the know some of the postulated questions and discussion points from this come from "After You Shoot: Your Gun's Hot, The Perp's Not, Now What?" by Alan Korwin.
    My thoughts are very provoked by this book...
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Take note pal, there may be 2 of your existing friends who are headed to the shindig user is putting on. Consider yourself an acceptable passenger to the trunk compartment of a car.

    (PS: It's a hatchback so you get the back window all to yourself.)

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    Nuc,

    If a fella can't attend a class for fiscal or distance reasons, there are plenty of resources available in print and on-line.

    I do not yet have Korwin's book, but its on my list.

    You could buy and read In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob. I seem to recall he had advice on whether and how to make the phone call.

    Also, you might hunt up a copy of the 2006 Virginia Gun Owners Guide. I believe there might have been some advice in there. Korwin was a co-author.

    Also, there is probably some good advice on the internet. You'll want to evaluate the "credentials" of the author.

    None that I have read all agree. This is one of those areas where you will just have to make your own decisions.

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Push for a bill like this to pass.

    http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....ls/hb2583p.htm

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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC_Biggs View Post
    anytime you draw your arm, or are attacked and use self defense (IMHO) i would call the po po...if you did nothing but defend yourself, it shouldnt matter wether you have a lawyer or not, and if you need one at some point, well, you did nothing wrong. so again why worry about it? file a report and be done with it
    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    The "I did nothing wrong" approach might not be the best thought process. Look at Skidmark, Gerald Ung, probably a few others.
    Nuc is right on this one JC. Lawyers and the 4th and 5th ammendments are there to protect the innocent.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
    G19 Gen 4; Bersa Thunder 380; Sig Sauer P238; Kel-Tec su-16c

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    Thanks Sharkey! That looks like similar wording to what Alan suggests implementing as code in his book. I know he's active with the AZCDL so it wouldn't surprise me if he wrote it up and submitted the suggested wording to his own government rep.

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    This seems to be closer to the heart of the matter.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Nuc,

    If a fella can't attend a class for fiscal or distance reasons, there are plenty of resources available in print and on-line.

    I do not yet have Korwin's book, but its on my list.

    You could buy and read In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob. I seem to recall he had advice on whether and how to make the phone call.

    Also, you might hunt up a copy of the 2006 Virginia Gun Owners Guide. I believe there might have been some advice in there. Korwin was a co-author.

    Also, there is probably some good advice on the internet. You'll want to evaluate the "credentials" of the author.

    None that I have read all agree. This is one of those areas where you will just have to make your own decisions.
    I've been reading these items, and yes situational dependence it at the heart of the matter. The issue I am offering discussion on is the 911 call. No one is legally obligated in VA to call 911 (maybe?) but if you don't the matter will be trotted out to a jury (likely) and presented as hiding something. If you do, the state has a voice recording of your panic stricken words to use against you. The AZ bill is probably a good way of addressing this implicit waiver of your right to silence. http://www.gunlaws.com/ has some interesting reading.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    I've been reading these items, and yes situational dependence it at the heart of the matter. The issue I am offering discussion on is the 911 call. No one is legally obligated in VA to call 911 (maybe?) but if you don't the matter will be trotted out to a jury (likely) and presented as hiding something. If you do, the state has a voice recording of your panic stricken words to use against you. The AZ bill is probably a good way of addressing this implicit waiver of your right to silence. http://www.gunlaws.com/ has some interesting reading.
    The 911 call can also be used to solidify your case for self defense also. It all depends on what you say and what's going on.

    There is at least one call I can remember that made such a strong case for self defense, the CA didn't even consider charges.

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    Regular Member nemo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    Look at Skidmark, Gerald Ung, probably a few others.
    That would be me.

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    In my experience a call to 911 where the caller says little to nothing and just hangs up or doesn't hang up, will cause the 911 operator to try to confirm a status, if there is no answer LEO's are dispatched to the address shown.

    So, the caller has now got LE enroute without making any statements.
    Last edited by Marco; 03-09-2011 at 12:48 PM.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    I touch on this a bit in some of my classes. Without giving too much away, look at these statements....

    I purchased a new car.

    A new car was purchased.

    Do they convey the same message to the listener? Now, translate that into a self-defense situation in which you are calling 911. You can figure out the rest.
    James Reynolds

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    I've thought through some of that myself ProShooter. One could call 911 to report and event and request help without giving up too much of who did what.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    I've thought through some of that myself ProShooter. One could call 911 to report and event and request help without giving up too much of who did what.
    Exactly.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
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    What about the standard:

    1) I was attacked (personal description, location, time)
    2) Evidence location (knife, dead bad guy)
    3) Witnesses if any and their location
    4) I will completely cooperate with the investigation after engaging my lawyer.

    This should apply after an attack. If you call in the middle of an attempted home invasion etc you could give your location in the house while waiting for police. Most 911 calls I have heard show the fear in the persons voice which would be good in court.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by 45acpForMe View Post
    Most 911 calls I have heard show the fear in the persons voice which would be good in court.
    I have seen in Virginia Beach where they have an audio meter which gauges breathing and speaking tone to aid in determining urgency.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    How many people having practiced at the range and suddenly find themselves defending their lives will be able to coherently remember what to say and how to say it. It seems in the area of 911 calls you all think that you will always say the right thing, in the right way, and it will be clear cut. Will you remember such actions? Will you remember everything and the order in which you said it? Do you want to make claims, remember that the prosecutors job is to prosecute you for homicide? The 911 calls that 'prove' self-defense are usually when someone calls while somebody is breaking in and blow by blow is given.

    But if you have the right to remain silent, and to an attorney, how much do you, or don't you say on the state recorded call to 911, which is fully admissible to court. You are being naive (in my opinion) if you think that you are protected by your call to 911. You just waived a right to silence, and after a shooting I doubt any except a few of the best trained individuals will be able to keep silent and not say the wrong or too many things, with details that will change over the next few hours, or days. How do you now for sure that just because you were justified, that the state will see it that way, or you say something in your call that makes a supposition that doesn't sound 'true?'
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    I have seen in Virginia Beach where they have an audio meter which gauges breathing and speaking tone to aid in determining urgency.
    What do you think happens, if you call and because of your training, you have defended yourself, the bad guy is down for good, but you call 911 and you are nice and calm?. Not hysterical 'enough' by a machine's judgment, do you think the prosecutor is going to pass up the opportunity to play a recording by a cold-blooded viscous killer, so cold-blooded that the very act didn't make the shooter react 'normally' see how nice and calm he was on this call?
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  25. #25
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    This seems to be closer to the heart of the matter.
    Clean wording - I like it.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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