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Thread: I had 3 LEOs over today

  1. #1
    Regular Member XD40coyote's Avatar
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    I had 3 LEOs over today

    And they never noticed I was CCing a full sized pistol. These were game cops doing a taxidermy inspection, and one was a young lady. Since I go googoo over OC I was trying to see what they were carrying ( looked like M and P or Taurus 24/7). I should have asked and asked what defensive ammo they have LOL.

    Now I do wonder how it would have been had I answered the door OCing. Under the terms of my taxidermy lisc I partly waive my 4A rights. They can come at a "reasonable time" to inspect my record book and freezers, and other taxidermy business areas. I really wonder if I was OC if they would have asked to disarm me "for officer safety". They were all pleasant this time around, so it would have been interesting if I was OC and they noted it and that was it.

    Well it was cool enough out today that I was CCing with a cover garment, which I know allows printing as it isn't as loose as others I have. 10 degrees warmer and I'd have been OCing.

    Oh and good thing my cattle dog wasn't out, sometimes he is out when I am not expecting anyone. Might have been another "cop shoots person's pet dog". Though all they need with Dakota is to run an engine ( he is afraid of cars and trucks), and as a last resort pepper spray would send him squealing like 10 pigs. Dakota puts on a barking show in general, and the going behind you ankle nipping can be intimidating.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    I think if you establish a good repoire with the game officers, you shouldn't have anything to worry about, particularly on your own property.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    If you were on your own property you have no obligation to disarm for the BS "officer safety" lie. Whogaf what they think? You may have to allow them to "check" your business, you don't have to give up your rights in so doing. That includes 4A. You have to conform to regulations, not a violation of the basic tenet of the BoR. They cannot do anything without due process of law, whether mitigated by your business regulations to which you conform or not.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40coyote View Post
    Now I do wonder how it would have been had I answered the door OCing. Under the terms of my taxidermy lisc I partly waive my 4A rights. They can come at a "reasonable time" to inspect my record book and freezers, and other taxidermy business areas.
    WHAT!?!

    Is every state like this?

    I simply wouldn't ever make such a waiver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    WHAT!?!

    Is every state like this?

    I simply wouldn't ever make such a waiver.

    Their ability to come "search" is what keeps me from getting a FFL. I would like to get a suppressor for some of my firearms(makes it easier on the neighbors and under the range roof) but in MO you have to have a FFL to get one. I had looked at just getting a C&R to meet the requirements. I was told, however, that I would have to allow for inspections of my guns by BATFE and I don't wish to give anyone in the government permission to "inspect" my firearms without a warrant. End result, no cans for me, but rights protected. I don't see what choice XD has though, it is required for the license, she needs for her business.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    Their ability to come "search" is what keeps me from getting a FFL. I would like to get a suppressor for some of my firearms(makes it easier on the neighbors and under the range roof) but in MO you have to have a FFL to get one. I had looked at just getting a C&R to meet the requirements. I was told, however, that I would have to allow for inspections of my guns by BATFE and I don't wish to give anyone in the government permission to "inspect" my firearms without a warrant. End result, no cans for me, but rights protected. I don't see what choice XD has though, it is required for the license, she needs for her business.
    A landlord under common and statutory law can inspect YOUR home at a reasonable time and interval. It is precisely the same. You grant access not otherwise an accepted business practice. You do NOT give up constitutionally protected personal rights. A business or apartment "inspection" for complience has nothing to do with 4A rights to be secure in your person and house against unreasonable search (or seizure). If you drive a car and a cop stops you and asks for your DL, reg and POI you have given up no rights, just agreed to comply in return for the quid pro quo of vehicle operation.

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    Regular Member Felix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post

    I simply wouldn't ever make <agree to?> such a waiver.
    And then you wouldn't be granted a license. Pretty straightforward and not a big deal if you don't want to be in the taxidermy business. Same for an FFL isn't it...two unannounced visits a year to check A&D books and verify inventory (if any). So you wouldn't have any hope of getting an FFL either, Marshaul.

    Full speed ahead and stand up for those 4A rights against unreasonable searches and seizures even if it's during your announced business hours and means you can't get a license to practice your chosen profession. Brillant.
    Daily carry: SIG P229 .40 S&W

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    A landlord under common and statutory law can inspect YOUR home at a reasonable time and interval. It is precisely the same. You grant access not otherwise an accepted business practice. You do NOT give up constitutionally protected personal rights. A business or apartment "inspection" for complience has nothing to do with 4A rights to be secure in your person and house against unreasonable search (or seizure). If you drive a car and a cop stops you and asks for your DL, reg and POI you have given up no rights, just agreed to comply in return for the quid pro quo of vehicle operation.
    The difference is that the government owns neither XD's home, nor her skill in taxidermy.

    By what right does it impose these requirements? To what end? By what necessity?

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix View Post
    And then you wouldn't be granted a license. Pretty straightforward and not a big deal if you don't want to be in the taxidermy business. Same for an FFL isn't it...two unannounced visits a year to check A&D books and verify inventory (if any). So you wouldn't have any hope of getting an FFL either, Marshaul.

    Full speed ahead and stand up for those 4A rights against unreasonable searches and seizures even if it's during your announced business hours and means you can't get a license to practice your chosen profession. Brillant.
    I can't see pursuing or choosing a profession for which I had to make such concessions.

    I am not criticizing those who do, but I am saying it's wholly unreasonably for the government to enact these requirements.

    If the government wants to verify that taxidermists or FFLs are following the law, tough. Absent probable cause, I see no reason to allow it to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    A landlord under common and statutory law can inspect YOUR home at a reasonable time and interval. It is precisely the same. You grant access not otherwise an accepted business practice. You do NOT give up constitutionally protected personal rights. A business or apartment "inspection" for complience has nothing to do with 4A rights to be secure in your person and house against unreasonable search (or seizure). If you drive a car and a cop stops you and asks for your DL, reg and POI you have given up no rights, just agreed to comply in return for the quid pro quo of vehicle operation.
    And an inspection of your pockets for compliance is just a quid pro quo of breathing the air within the imaginary lines that constitute the borders of the state.

    The state searching you without any suspicion of a violation of the law, "to check for compliance," or for "inspection," is not the same as making an agreement with a property owner that you may lease property from him under a set of terms. He owns the property, and you actually probably signed a real agreement and weren't coerced into it.

    In Nevada, they set up checkpoints to stop vehicles to search for registration, driver's licenses, and "other violations of the law" (i.e. whatever contraband they see in your car when they have it stopped.). Personally I'm not a fan.

    In California they stop people who UOC to search their gun for ammunition. Did they agree to comply in return for the quid pro quo of firearm possession? I've UOC'ed in California, but I never signed an agreement saying they can do that. And who says you can't store stuff in a gun? Maybe I have secret letters and money in the magazine well.

    One might argue that presence within the boundary of place is an agreement to be subject the police powers within it, but it certainly isn't as easy to pack up and find a place without police powers as it is to live without a land lord.

    Further, the landlord is likely to evict you if he finds something he doesn't like. If the state finds something they don't like, they're going to arrest you, send you to prison maybe, and likely change your status from a citizen to a subject possibly stripping you of your rights after adjudication. A lot more is at stake when you are searched by the state.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 03-15-2011 at 06:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I can't see pursuing or choosing a profession for which I had to make such concessions. I am not criticizing those who do, but I am saying it's wholly unreasonably for the government to enact these requirements.

    If the government wants to verify that taxidermists or FFLs are following the law, tough. Absent probable cause, I see no reason to allow it to do so.
    Standing.
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    Regular Member sraacke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I can't see pursuing or choosing a profession for which I had to make such concessions.
    How about a hobby where gov inspectors can show up at your door and conduct inspections? Ham Radio. I'm a ham and the FCC can show up at my door at any time and request to inspect my equiptment. One of the questions on the Tech test reads, “When must the station licensee make the station and its records available for FCC inspection?” The answer: “Any time upon request by an FCC representative.”
    It's rare but happens when there's a complaint of interference or other enforcement issues. And it's not just ham radio. Having a CB radio in your car or home can get you a visit from FCC inspectors. You don't have to apply for a license to operate a CB (like you do with ham radios) but CB is still subject to FCC rules and regulations. If you don't let them in you face some stiff fines like this guy facing 7K worth of fines for not letting the .gov guys in to check his station.... ....
    http://www.arrl.org/news/fcc-issues-...fcc-inspection .
    Last edited by sraacke; 03-15-2011 at 06:05 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yale View Post
    How about a hobby where gov inspectors can show up at your door and conduct inspections? Ham Radio. I'm a ham and the FCC can show up at my door at any time and request to inspect my equiptment. One of the questions on the Tech test reads, “When must the station licensee make the station and its records available for FCC inspection?” The answer: “Any time upon request by an FCC representative.”
    It's rare but happens when there's a complaint of interference or other enforcement issues. And it's not just ham radio. Having a CB radio in your car or home can get you a visit from FCC inspectors. You don't have to apply for a license to operate a CB (like you do with ham radios) but CB is still subject to FCC rules and regulations. If you don't let them in you face some stiff fines like this guy facing 7K worth of fines for not letting the .gov guys in to check his station.... ....
    http://www.arrl.org/news/fcc-issues-...fcc-inspection .
    The FCC is today archaic, obsolete, redundant, and wholly superfluous.

    The limited spectrum is no longer of any significant relevance. See the FCC desperately trying to insinuate themselves into internet regulation so as to justify their existence moving forward.

    So, what about it? I wouldn't pursue such a hobby either.
    Last edited by marshaul; 03-15-2011 at 06:27 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Standing.
    Interesting observation.

    But what do you suppose are the odds of any court agreeing with a position like my own?

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    Regular Member XD40coyote's Avatar
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    Marshaul, I am in full agreement with you, but it is what it is for the time being. I've tried to talk to other taxidermists, but they don't seem to "get it". Without industry support in my state, even in a small way, there will be no change. In fact the stupid trappers association apparently went along with a regulatory change to the nuisance trapping regulations- which were made stricter. A rumor I heard was to head off HSUS and other animal activist groups "from making it worst". A bunch of FUDDS, honestly...needless to say I no longer hold a nuisance trapper lisc. I also never renewed my federal taxidermy lisc which is required to do migratory birds ( ducks, geese, doves,etc). Not much in the way of hunters wanting to bring me such anyway, but being tired of 4A waivings and stupid laws and whatnot, I chose not to renew. Yes, the fed lisc has a stipulation that fed wildife officers can come by at "reasonable business hours" to inspect records and freezers.

    I will say, as to the latest inspection by DNR officers, that they did hint at me about wether I had other freezers, and I was vague in a "no" sort of way- and that was it, they did not push it. They were not JBT-ing like last time, don't know if it was due to them wanting to get this done due to being busy this time of year for once ( rockfish poachers on the Bay- big stuff this year), or if they had learned to be more polite to me and put the BS of the past aside ( the BS was that some of them thought a buddy of mine in PA was illegally trapping otters, then having me claim they were mine from MD to get them tagged- all the otters I had tagged were MINE trapped by ME- legally- hell I could show the DNR officers in detail where and how I caught each one).

    BTW, they have M&P pistols, I looked at pics and that was them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    Interesting observation.

    But what do you suppose are the odds of any court agreeing with a position like my own?
    The odds would be against you. You don't have standing.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    The odds would be against you. You don't have standing.
    So, I'm not sure what you were saying. Who would have standing, then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    So, I'm not sure what you were saying. Who would have standing, then?
    Those who do choose to start those businesses endeavors that you limit yourself from.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Those who do choose to start those businesses endeavors that you limit yourself from.
    So, you're saying that those who are affected are the ones with a grievance.

    Indeed.

    That doesn't prevent me from criticizing the government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    So, you're saying that those who are affected are the ones with a grievance.
    That IS how it works. Of course others can complain about it, but those who are directly affected have standing to fight it if they choose. Kind of like Heller and McDonald.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    That IS how it works. Of course others can complain about it, but those who are directly affected have standing to fight it if they choose. Kind of like Heller and McDonald.
    Yeah, I know this, I just didn't understand why you brought it up. I guess I still don't.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    A few years ago the state decided to audit my business, sent me a letter and when I called on the phone they said they want access to my computers and all my files and it could take up to 3 days, all in my house!!! Meanwhile I would miss work and have to coddle to some state thug invading my home.

    I told them " Just to let you know I am a strong supporter of 2A and I openly carry my firearm and have other firearms on display in my home and I will not be putting them away".

    She told me " Oh? well you can just drop off the last two years files at my office"

    When I dropped off the files she asked "Is that a real gun?", Me: "Yes", Her: " I don't think you can have that in here", Me: "Yes I absolutely can". End of conversation never bothered by them again.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 03-16-2011 at 07:28 AM.
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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    The difference is that the government owns neither XD's home, nor her skill in taxidermy.

    By what right does it impose these requirements? To what end? By what necessity?
    I'm not defending unreasonable Federal regulations, simply saying that you do not give up constitutional rights for yourself via a certain profession. Don't know much about taxidermy, but FFL dealers put up with crap that is absolutely ridicules. I don't advocate anyone walking in and then out with a firearm, but the record keeping is inane. And the pos obooba nominated for head of the SA, I mean BATFE, would send it further into the crapper.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felid`Maximus View Post
    And an inspection of your pockets for compliance is just a quid pro quo of breathing the air within the imaginary lines that constitute the borders of the state.

    The state searching you without any suspicion of a violation of the law, "to check for compliance," or for "inspection," is not the same as making an agreement with a property owner that you may lease property from him under a set of terms. He owns the property, and you actually probably signed a real agreement and weren't coerced into it.

    In Nevada, they set up checkpoints to stop vehicles to search for registration, driver's licenses, and "other violations of the law" (i.e. whatever contraband they see in your car when they have it stopped.). Personally I'm not a fan.

    In California they stop people who UOC to search their gun for ammunition. Did they agree to comply in return for the quid pro quo of firearm possession? I've UOC'ed in California, but I never signed an agreement saying they can do that. And who says you can't store stuff in a gun? Maybe I have secret letters and money in the magazine well.

    One might argue that presence within the boundary of place is an agreement to be subject the police powers within it, but it certainly isn't as easy to pack up and find a place without police powers as it is to live without a land lord.

    Further, the landlord is likely to evict you if he finds something he doesn't like. If the state finds something they don't like, they're going to arrest you, send you to prison maybe, and likely change your status from a citizen to a subject possibly stripping you of your rights after adjudication. A lot more is at stake when you are searched by the state.
    You're missing my point. I'm saying that merely being subject to regulations--whether by agreement or as a quid pro quo for a "privilege" does NOT mean you give up constitutional rights for yourself. The cop can ask for a DL, but cannot search your car on a whim. Whether the state or a landlord, any search must be reasonable. The BATFE can inspect your records if you're a dealer. They cannot look in your cash register or wallet without obtaining a search warrant. That's the difference.

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