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Thread: Am I missing something here?

  1. #1
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    Am I missing something here?

    is there a law or some other reason as to why almost everybody on here removes their gun from their person while in a car? there is at least 1 thread asking where everybody puts their gun when getting in a car. if you OC on your hip, when you sit in a car, it's still OC'ed. I've read posts about people moving the gun around during road blocks or traffic stops.... you have an officer coming up behind you and you are fumbling with a gun?!?! you are just asking to to get tazed or eat pavement or worse. I just read a post about someone in a car accident with their gun unsecured on the passenger seat. luckily it just fell to the floor, but imagine if an airbag hit that gun.... or if you had it on your dash and you slam into somebody....

    apologize if this comes across rude or mean spirited, not my intentions, but I am truly baffled as to why you all remove the gun from your secured OC holsters when riding in a car.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    "Not Concealed" has been interpreted in NC to mean "easily distinguishable as a firearm, and in plain view"

    When you have a gun on your right hip in a holster (assuming you are a "righty"), and are sitting in the drivers seat of a car with your seatbelt on, and an LEO approaches you from the drivers side window, your gun is NOT visible, and has therefore been interpreted as being "concealed"...

    So people who don't have a CHP will take their gun (and holster if they can) off and place it on the passenger seat where it IS easy to see by a cop approaching from the drivers side.

    Now, if you have a permit (either a NC CHP, or a perit from another state that NC recognizes), you are good-to-go with wearing your firearm however you want in your car. On your hip, under a coat, in a shoulder rig, in a cross-draw, whatever.

    But if you don't have a "concealed carry permit" of some sort, you HAVE to keep the gun somewhere that can bee easily seen by an LEO while you are in the car.

    THAT is why people are always talking about moving their guns around in their cars in NC.

    Well, that, and the fact that there are a LOT of places you can't carry in NC--permit or not. Post Offices, restaurants that serve alcohol, movie theaters, any business that is "posted", many government buildings, most shopping malls, etc, etc, etc.

    Hope that helps...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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  3. #3
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aosailor View Post
    luckily it just fell to the floor, but imagine if an airbag hit that gun.... or if you had it on your dash and you slam into somebody....

    If your gun will go off all by itself just from the shock of being hit with an airbag, or rattling around on your dashboard, then I would suggest that you take it to a gunsmith and get it fixed, or get rid of it and buy a modern, reliable, SAFE handgun...

    I've seen loaded, locked and cocked 1911's, Glocks, Tauruses, S&W, Sigs, Walthers, and even HiPoints dropped from several feet, and never seen one "just go off"...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Everything Dreamer said, and I will take it off on some rides for comfort purposes.
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    It ain't what they call rock and roll
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    Yeah the Sultans, they play Creole"

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  5. #5
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    Don't go fumbling for your gun

    I never agreed with going for the gun when getting pulled over to make it more visible. The last thing you want a leo see is you making quick movements fumbling around.. It could be interpreted as trying to hide something or worse they see you with a gun in your hand.

    To me, the law seems to be way too open for interpretation. In my view, if I'm openly carrying on my hip then get in my car and do not cover it with anything, then I still consider myself still open carrying. That interpretation may not be true for a leo or judge.

    No matter where you put your weapon, there's always going to be some angle or obstruction where an officer wont be able to see it straight away.

    So to avoid any confusion I went and got my Carry Concealed Permit.

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    If you're carrying it, you're gonna be able to get to it easily. (I hope.)

    You won't have to fumble, and you can put it over in the passenger seat before you ever start to pull over.
    "They don't give a damn about any trumpet playing band
    It ain't what they call rock and roll
    And the Sultans...
    Yeah the Sultans, they play Creole"

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  7. #7
    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    For me, it's a matter of a couple things. For one, the AG's .pdf file that deals with OC in a car and suggests that we put it on the seat or dash. Personally, I'd never put it on the dash for any reason unless specifically told to do so under certain circumstances by an officer. I used to keep it on the seat, instead. And yes I've since re-considered the wisdom of keeping it there on the seat since my accident. In fact, if you go back and read my last few posts in that thread, I discuss exactly that. I also posted it there to bring light to my personal experience so that others could think about it.

    Anyway, I also used to keep it there because it dug into my fat gut when riding with it with the gun in the holster. I know, I know- lose the gut and there would be no problem...but the fact is that may cars, along with their restraint devices, are not very OC friendly in the area of comfort.

    Another reason for me keeping on the seat was for faster access if ever needed. Fayetteville isn't exactly utopia and having it right where I could get to it if needed was a good idea.

    However, my issue wasn't so much the idea of it actually firing a round off due to impact, but more about the idea of a heavy object floating around the car at the moment of impact. The same could be said for a heavy thermos, a bag of groceries, a lunch box, or any other fairly heavy object. The fact that it was my gun is what drove me to discuss it in that thread.

    So that leads me right back where I was before this thread was made- where is the perfect place for a gun while in a moving vehicle under OC conditions? Someone has suggested simply getting a CHP to cure the matter. For some of the reasons I stated above, that may or may not work.

    Are there other suggestions?
    Last edited by rotorhead; 03-12-2011 at 04:09 PM.

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    if i'm walking around town and a cop comes up to me on my right side, he wont see my gun on my left, is that considered concealed carry? [NO] then how does this "rule of thumb" not apply in cars?

    I used to be a righty until about 3yrs ago (long, painful story) and have been pulled over a bunch while OCing on my right hip. I tell the officer that I am openly carrying on my right hip. none of them have ever stated that it may be construed as concealed. now that I am a south paw, its even easier, i just tell them to look down lol

    I guess I need to be a bit clearer about an unsecured gun in an accident. I wasn't thinking about it going off, more along the lines of a 3-5lbs brick flying around the inside of my car at 60mph.

    I understand the comfort reasoning, especially for long trips. but if you cant make it to the corner store because of comfort, you might wanna look into a different type of holster or change your gun's positioning. IMO

    yes there are plenty of places I cant bring my gun into, so I leave it in the car, but thats not what I was asking about. my questioning purely refers to unholstering your gun while you drive.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
    For me, it's a matter of a couple things. For one, the AG's .pdf file that deals with OC in a car and suggests that we put it on the seat or dash. Personally, I'd never put it on the dash for any reason unless specifically told to do so under certain circumstances by an officer. I used to keep it on the seat, instead. And yes I've since re-considered the wisdom of keeping it there on the seat since my accident. In fact, if you go back and read my last few posts in that thread, I discuss exactly that. I also posted it there to bring light to my personal experience so that others could think about it.

    Anyway, I also used to keep it there because it dug into my fat gut when riding with it with the gun in the holster. I know, I know- lose the gut and there would be no problem...but the fact is that may cars, along with their restraint devices, are not very OC friendly in the area of comfort.

    Another reason for me keeping on the seat was for faster access if ever needed. Fayetteville isn't exactly utopia and having it right where I could get to it if needed was a good idea.

    However, my issue wasn't so much the idea of it actually firing a round off due to impact, but more about the idea of a heavy object floating around the car at the moment of impact. The same could be said for a heavy thermos, a bag of groceries, a lunch box, or any other fairly heavy object. The fact that it was my gun is what drove me to discuss it in that thread.

    So that leads me right back where I was before this thread was made- where is the perfect place for a gun while in a moving vehicle under OC conditions? You've suggested simply getting a CHP to cure the matter. For some of the reasons I stated above, that may or may not work.

    Are there other suggestions?

    not to single you out, but your post about your accident was my "straw that broke the camel's back" so to speak. it especially got me thinking about a loose heavy object flying around my car. what if it busts out a window and flies across the street? etc etc..


    you stated something about the AG's .pdf file on OCing in cars.. do you know where i can find that? I would like to read it, thanks

  10. #10
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    GRNC has the text of the NC Attorney Generals "North Carolina Gun Law" document on their website:

    http://www.grnc.org/firearms.htm


    To download the "official" current-issue document in PDF form from the NC DOJ website, click on this link:

    2010-NC-Firearms-gun-Laws
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  11. #11
    Regular Member RPJ's Avatar
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    Whenever I get in my car I put my gun in the cup holder. I feel it's more secure there than sliding around on my car seat, plus it's a lot closer and can be visibly seen if I ever get pulled over.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Ricky's Avatar
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    I have a N.C. CHP and just leave it on my hip while driving. My concern is trying to catch a flying handgun if a accident were to happen. Only problem at times and its not that big a deal is depending on whether I'm driving my truck or my wifes car is the seat belt buckle tends to scratch or could scratch my pistol and if I'm wearing my Blackhawk Serpa holster it potentially affects the release latch on the holster....But for the record as to the OG post...I carry on right hip while driving..............
    Last edited by Ricky; 03-12-2011 at 06:27 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aosailor View Post
    not to single you out, but your post about your accident was my "straw that broke the camel's back" so to speak. it especially got me thinking about a loose heavy object flying around my car. what if it busts out a window and flies across the street? etc etc..


    you stated something about the AG's .pdf file on OCing in cars.. do you know where i can find that? I would like to read it, thanks
    Lies, you DID single me out!

    lol no worries, I don't mind. In fact, that's the whole reason why I posted my adventure in the "OC reports" thread- so that others would see it and get them thinking about the situation. The fact that it was my gun that was launched forward is almost secondary and I suppose if it was another item I'd never include the entry.

    In my case it happened to go straight forward and slightly downwards, landing innocently on the floorboard. I can imagine where it would have landed or the damage it could have done if the impact had been from a different angle.

    Looks like Dreamer's got you covered of the pdf file. Hope that helps. It's actually a decent summary of the laws but it's not everything pertaining to guns and carrying, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aosailor View Post
    , but I am truly baffled as to why you all remove the gun from your secured OC holsters when riding in a car.

    Now that I have my CCP, I leave it holstered. Before that I took it off because I was not going to allow a LEO to make a judgement call on whether it was OC or CC. I was going to make it obvious. YMMV though. I also had a second holster attached to my passenger seatbelt that I transferred it to.

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    guns on seats or dashboards

    Quote Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
    For me, it's a matter of a couple things. For one, the AG's .pdf file that deals with OC in a car and suggests that we put it on the seat or dash. Personally, I'd never put it on the dash for any reason unless specifically told to do so under certain circumstances by an officer. I used to keep it on the seat, instead. And yes I've since re-considered the wisdom of keeping it there on the seat since my accident. In fact, if you go back and read my last few posts in that thread, I discuss exactly that. I also posted it there to bring light to my personal experience so that others could think about it.

    Anyway, I also used to keep it there because it dug into my fat gut when riding with it with the gun in the holster. I know, I know- lose the gut and there would be no problem...but the fact is that may cars, along with their restraint devices, are not very OC friendly in the area of comfort.

    Another reason for me keeping on the seat was for faster access if ever needed. Fayetteville isn't exactly utopia and having it right where I could get to it if needed was a good idea.

    However, my issue wasn't so much the idea of it actually firing a round off due to impact, but more about the idea of a heavy object floating around the car at the moment of impact. The same could be said for a heavy thermos, a bag of groceries, a lunch box, or any other fairly heavy object. The fact that it was my gun is what drove me to discuss it in that thread.

    So that leads me right back where I was before this thread was made- where is the perfect place for a gun while in a moving vehicle under OC conditions? Someone has suggested simply getting a CHP to cure the matter. For some of the reasons I stated above, that may or may not work.

    Are there other suggestions?
    @ Rotorhead U might consider attaching it holstered to the passenger side seatbelt and lock the seatbelt, just a thought, if the seat is unoccupied.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    Now that I have my CCP, I leave it holstered.

    I hate to be a nit-picker, but if you live in NC, it is a CHP.

    Concealed Handgun Permit...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Spearhead's Avatar
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    I guess I'll be the one to dissent. Just because you are in a car doesn't make your gun CONCEALED.

    I don't unsaddle when I get into my car. Been doing it that way since forever. Been pulled over about 10 times in my life. Gotten a ticket for speeding, etc. on a few of those stops. Never had an issue becuase I had a gun on my hip. Whenever the cop walks up and finishes his "Hello Sir...." speech, I tell him I have a handgun on my right hip.

    I'm sure if this practice was "illegal" I would have been arrested way long ago.

    Maybe it depends on your vehicle. If you have buckets seats with a huge console and all that crap I guess it could be "concealed" just like if you had a jacket thrown over it. But just getting in a car doesn't make it "concealed" by default.

    I consider it more of an possibility of an "incident" if the cop walks up and sees a gun laying on the seat. It's way more "accessible" laying on the seat than it is in my holster. If my intentions were evil, I could grab it off the seat a lot faster than I could draw it from my blackhawk in a seated position with a seat belt on.
    Last edited by Spearhead; 03-13-2011 at 10:05 AM.
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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spearhead View Post
    I guess I'll be the one to dissent. Just because you are in a car doesn't make your gun CONCEALED.

    I don't unsaddle when I get into my car. Been doing it that way since forever. Been pulled over about 10 times in my life. Gotten a ticket for speeding, etc. on a few of those stops. Never had an issue becuase I had a gun on my hip. Whenever the cop walks up and finishes his "Hello Sir...." speech, I tell him I have a handgun on my right hip.

    I'm sure if this practice was "illegal" I would have been arrested way long ago.

    Maybe it depends on your vehicle. If you have buckets seats with a huge console and all that crap I guess it could be "concealed" just like if you had a jacket thrown over it. But just getting in a car doesn't make it "concealed" by default.

    I consider it more of an possibility of an "incident" if the cop walks up and sees a gun laying on the seat. It's way more "accessible" laying on the seat than it is in my holster. If my intentions were evil, I could grab it off the seat a lot faster than I could draw it from my blackhawk in a seated position with a seat belt on.
    It's also more visible, which is the point, really. From the standpoint of pure visibility, I can't see where anyone could go wrong by transporting it in one of only two or so ways the AG says to do it.

    However, as I learned first-hand, it's not exactly the perfect way to transport it either lol.

    Leaving it in the holster on my belt is what I am going to do for now and simply make what adjustments I can for comfort and seat belt operation. I did try clipping my holster to teh seat belt and securing the belt but it's not working out too well. It stays in place but is real floppy, too. Driving around normally would be no problem but I have concerns about what that floppiness will result in if ever I'm impacted again. It could be that I simply need to look at a different holster than my current SERPA. And that's only talking in terms of the M&P. The revolver has a leather holster and the seat belt thing is not physically possible due to the seat belt configuration.

    Then again, I'm sure there's a way to do it without having to buy a separate system for the car. Perhaps it's just a matter of there not being a perfect system and I just have to make the best with what I have.
    Last edited by rotorhead; 03-13-2011 at 11:22 AM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Spearhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
    It's also more visible, which is the point, really.
    Dude, it's either visible or it aint. Sort of like being more pregnant.
    I'm not a lawyer, but from my review of the AG's document, I don't see any sliding scale for measuring "how visible" it has to be.
    Just like if you carry in a IWB holster Vs. an OWB holster. It's carried openly, regardless of the fact that 90% of the gun is not visible in an IWB holster.

    I think it's just bad PR to be putting out there that you HAVE to have your pistol laying on the seat or on the dash. Sure, it might be an option, but to make it sound like it is some chiseled-in-stone legal requirement is ********.


    Quote Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
    It's also more visible, which is the point, really.
    "Therefore, the permittee's accessibility to the weapon is of prime importance." NC AG, Pg 16, guess the AG disagrees with you.
    Of course, you should advise him to wear it on his head where it is visible from 360 degrees. It would be "more visible" that way and therefore better according to your logic.


    Like I said, if it was screaming illegal, I'd been in jail long ago.
    Last edited by Spearhead; 03-13-2011 at 11:41 AM.
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  20. #20
    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    I think it's just bad PR to be putting out there that you HAVE to have your pistol laying on the seat or on the dash. Sure, it might be an option, but to make it sound like it is some chiseled-in-stone legal requirement is ********.
    It's still early on a Sunday, but maybe you can show me where I said it has to be on the seat or on the dash. Please also show where I said it was chiseled in stone, or even implied as much.

    I did say that the AG recommends carrying it in certain places, but never implied that it was chiseled in stone. My choices were my own and I never strong-armed anyone into making the same choices for transport. Discussing this stuff together is fine, however I do not entertain straw-man arguments designed to make you look cooler.

    "Therefore, the permittee's accessibility to the weapon is of prime importance." NC AG, Pg 16, guess the AG disagrees with you.
    The part you are speaking of is in terms of concealment and accessibility. You forgot to mention that part. In other words, when determining as to whether or not a weapon is concealed in violation of state law, accessibility is of prime importance.
    If the weapon is not concealed whatsoever, accessibility has no bearing. Open carry is allowed in a vehicle, after all. However, it does go on to state that (paraphrased) normally openly carrying as we do on our hip is legal in a car. I would take that to mean that keeping it in the holster on your hip would be fine- which is why I'm doing it now anyway. My argument was never that the practice was illegal, just that it bugged the hell out of me driving with it that way in terms of comfort.

    I did mention that having it on the seat makes it even more visible, thereby hopefully eliminating any question in a LEO's mind as to whether or not it was in plain view. Perhaps that is where the confusion lies? Although it was not my intention to imply that it had to be on the seat, what you did was over state my thought and then made an argument against it. Again, this is called a straw-man argument, something I will not allow others to get away with when in a discussion.

    I also said that there were other reasons why I carried it on the seat, such as for easier access if ever needed.

    Of course, you should advise him to wear it on his head where it is visible from 360 degrees. It would be "more visible" that way and therefore better according to your logic.
    Here you make the distinct turn from straw-man arguments to just plain being a dick, for which I now end any and all discussion regarding this matter with you. I simply don't have the time to entertain kids.

    Have a great day.
    Last edited by rotorhead; 03-13-2011 at 01:01 PM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I hate to be a nit-picker, but if you live in NC, it is a CHP.

    Concealed Handgun Permit...
    And everyone knows what I mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    And everyone knows what I mean.
    yes, everyone knows what you mean.

    however, comma, words have a very specific meaning, and can either land you in jail or keep you free.
    Taurus PT1911 .45 ACP. Carried in condition 1, with a total of 25 rounds.

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  23. #23
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    i NEVER unholster my weapon, if im using the paddle i MIGHT take it off but that generally isnt the case. if im gonna go in somewhere i cant carry then i will make the weapon condition 2 and put it under the seat. I just tell the officer when i get pulled that im open carrying a loaded weapon and that its on my hip. if he ask why i didnt put it on the dash or the seat the answer is simple. i didnt have time to remove the magazine and the round from the chamber and a loaded weapon is much more safe in its holster on my hip than lying on a seat just waiting for something bad to happen. but i dont get pulled over and only had to use it once at a DL check (which i also think is unconstitional BS btw)

    i also wouldnt have a problem with being detained because some loser leo with a grudge decided to charge me with CCW. honestly there needs to be a case precedent set for this anyways...lol
    Last edited by JC_Biggs; 03-13-2011 at 09:38 PM.

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    I un-holster mine everytime I get into my truck for 2 reasons:

    1) It just isn't comfortable holstered with my seatbelt
    2) Never know when a LEO's interpretation of "Concealed or not" won't go my way.

    Here is a pic of how mine rides, it is secure and has never moved even when slamming on brakes or hitting a massive dip while riding through our pastures.
    "God, Guns, & Guts Made America, Lets Use All 3!!!"

  25. #25
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spearhead View Post
    Dude, it's either visible or it aint. Sort of like being more pregnant.
    I'm not a lawyer, but from my review of the AG's document, I don't see any sliding scale for measuring "how visible" it has to be.
    Just like if you carry in a IWB holster Vs. an OWB holster. It's carried openly, regardless of the fact that 90% of the gun is not visible in an IWB holster.

    Although I agree with you in principal on this issue, I can state as a matter of fact, that when I am wearing EITHER of my .45acp handguns (a full-size double-stack Para, or a subcompact Glock) and sitting in the driver's seat of my vehicle with the seatbelt on, it is completely and totally obscured from view, whether you are approaching from the drivers side or the passenger side, because of the configuration of my seatbelt, and the "wings" of my sporty bucket seats.

    So I guess I can sort of see how an LEO could consider it "concealed", since unless I undo my seatbelt, and lean to the left a little, my firearm would be obscured from view.

    Then again, I have a CHP, so I don't have to worry if they can see it or not...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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