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Thread: Second time open carrying- ARRESTED!!!

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    Second time open carrying- ARRESTED!!!

    So I was working on my car and needed a volt meter so I went to the Maplewood Wal-Mart today around 2pm. I walked through the store and grabbed something else I needed. Then as I was standing in the checkout line, a cop told me to come over. He asked if I was a cop and I said no. He then disarmed me and pulled me into the security room. He asked for my ID and I asked if I had done anything wrong. He told me to stand up and he handcuffed me and took my wallet. Right as he was doing then, I got my phone RECORDING. Then he took me out and put me in the cop car. At this time, there were about 4-5 cops. Surprisingly, he never checked me for another gun.

    They then started asking me why I talked to the city manager and I told them I was making sure it was legal. Then they said, "watch your ******* attitude" and slammed the door. They kept talking about how I needed a CCW. Then they said I didn't have one, but I showed them I had one in Florida.

    Later they said, "He has his concealed through Florida, but he still can't carry it on his hip"

    So then on the way to jail, they told me I had a warrant through St. Louis County for speeding. The thing is, that case is being appealed through the Missouri Court of Appeals-Eastern District. Here in the case number ED95832. I filed this a few months ago through the county, which sent the appeal to the Appeals Court. They wrote on the filing, "no bail". I even contacted the court clerk at the South County municipal court to make sure they knew it was being appealed so they didn't issue a warrant. "Oh yeah, we know. We actually just sent your court file to the central court. We won't issue a warrant". BUT they issued a warrant anyway.

    On top of that, one time in court for the speeding ticket, I heard a judge talking to an attorney. She said, "Our system is so messed up, they keep locking people up that aren't supposed to be locked up"

    So when we got to jail, the cop called a bunch of people and said to me, "You're not being charged for the gun thing. Wal-Mart doesn't want to press charges". I still had to deal with the bad St. Louis County warrant though.

    So after I got bailed out, I went back to get my car and went into Wal-Mart to find out who called the police. They got real smart with me and said they had people come up to them scared. I got the name of the person that called.

    Then I went to the police station to get my gun. They were closed so I started banging on the "police only entrance"

    A sergeant pulled up and I told him I wanted my gun. He knew who I was and I recorded that conversation too. He said I would have to make an appointment to get it. They also still have my license and CCW permit. I also talked to him about open carry and he said he had never seen anyone in his xx years open carry. I told him he better get used to it, because I will be doing it everyday in Maplewood.

    So needless to say, Money morning I am going to get a lawyer.

    I'm getting the video/audio recordings upload and will post them later.
    Last edited by lancers; 03-12-2011 at 10:39 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Big Boy's Avatar
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    Man...that's messed up

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    That is messed up. But, I imagine that you were arrested for the warrant, or at least that's what you'll be told by the LEO's. I sure hope that you asked them why you were being arrested and you were told something other than the warrant. That can only help you. If you didn't, chances are that's not going to get you far with the lawyer. I would get everything FOIA'ed and have one look it over though, you never know when you might get a check written to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    That is messed up. But, I imagine that you were arrested for the warrant, or at least that's what you'll be told by the LEO's. I sure hope that you asked them why you were being arrested and you were told something other than the warrant. That can only help you. If you didn't, chances are that's not going to get you far with the lawyer. I would get everything FOIA'ed and have one look it over though, you never know when you might get a check written to you.

    That is what I was thinking too, but the warrant wasn't confirmed until we were already on our way to jail. I have it on the recording.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lancers View Post
    That is what I was thinking too, but the warrant wasn't confirmed until we were already on our way to jail. I have it on the recording.
    I can't wait to hear it. Sounds really interesting.

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    I'm an audio/video engineer here in Washington state. if you need any audio converted just let me know. If you have video or audio (in any format) I can convert it to a MP3.

    Check my profile for contact info.

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    Delete this thread immediately if you are serious about a lawsuit . maybe you meant you need a lawyer for the warrant ? For a suit involving firearms , there's only one lawyer to consider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDW View Post
    Delete this thread immediately if you are serious about a lawsuit . maybe you meant you need a lawyer for the warrant ? For a suit involving firearms , there's only one lawyer to consider.

    I need a lawyer for a lawsuit against both. I can handle the warrant. I will just take my Court of Appeals filing which says no bond and ask them why the F*** they still issued a warrant when I was never required to pay the fine once it went to appeals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lancers View Post
    I need a lawyer for a lawsuit against both. I can handle the warrant. I will just take my Court of Appeals filing which says no bond and ask them why the F*** they still issued a warrant when I was never required to pay the fine once it went to appeals.
    Understood . Good Luck , and thanks in advance for educating law enforcement , the hard way !

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDW View Post
    Delete this thread immediately if you are serious about a lawsuit . maybe you meant you need a lawyer for the warrant ? For a suit involving firearms , there's only one lawyer to consider.

    JDW, out of curiosity, who is that lawyer? Not that I expect to need one, but I like to keep names of potentially important people to me close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    JDW, out of curiosity, who is that lawyer? Not that I expect to need one, but I like to keep names of potentially important people to me close.
    Kevin Jamison

    http://kljamisonlaw.com/

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    Here is the video tape of arrest:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8z7DTHC4lU

    Here is the City Manager:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsc0hENop_8

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    Quote Originally Posted by M1Gunr View Post
    I'm an audio/video engineer here in Washington state. if you need any audio converted just let me know. If you have video or audio (in any format) I can convert it to a MP3.

    Check my profile for contact info.
    Thanks. I think I pretty much got it, but might need some help later.

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    Regular Member sohighlyunlikely's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDW View Post
    Delete this thread immediately if you are serious about a lawsuit . maybe you meant you need a lawyer for the warrant ? For a suit involving firearms , there's only one lawyer to consider.
    If you are implying Jamison. There would be 2 problems with that. It is my understanding from reading his books. He is soft on the practice of OC and to my knowledge he hasn't fought an OC case. Then add in the price he would charge.

    Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    If you are implying Jamison. There would be 2 problems with that. It is my understanding from reading his books. He is soft on the practice of OC and to my knowledge he hasn't fought an OC case. Then add in the price he would charge.

    Doc
    I know very little about what he has or hasn't fought for . He is a gun guy , 2A lobbyist , ect , etc . Now isn't the time I would be price shopping .

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    Quote Originally Posted by sohighlyunlikely View Post
    If you are implying Jamison. There would be 2 problems with that. It is my understanding from reading his books. He is soft on the practice of OC and to my knowledge he hasn't fought an OC case. Then add in the price he would charge.

    Doc
    I've already got his number, just wanted to make sure there wasn't a second one I needed ;-)

    I didn't get the impression he's soft on OC from meeting him or reading his books. But, we didn't talk about OC either. Maybe I should invite him to our next dinner... I did enjoy reading his book, and he appears to be a genuinely good guy. And, lawyers defend things they don't have a passion for all the time, especially criminal defense lawyers. He's certainly a huge 2A fan. As far as his price, I seem to remember that he recommends filling a 55 gal drum with 100 dollar bills and rolling that into his office in his book if you wanted to try to make case law. Now, I think this is more like a clear overreach by the police, so making case law doesn't apply. I'm sure his comment is in jest, but outside of his 2A business (which he appears to take very seriously), he appears to be a fairly run of the mill type lawyer (immigration, divorce, traffic tickets.) I'm not saying anything about his skills, I'm sure he's a great lawyer, but rather the kind of practice he has. He's got a small office that's not really that nice. He doesn't wear fancy suits that I've seen. I wouldn't think he would be crazy expensive. But, you probably know his bill rate better than I do.

    In lancers' favor is the following: the decision not to press charges, the fact that he has a CCW, which means that possession is not a crime, even if he refuses to leave. Plus the fact that he can prove (I assume) that he wasn't asked to leave Wal-Mart, which is necessary for it to rise to the level of an infraction. All of that points to the Maplewood PD not knowing the laws they were asked to enforce. And, having the City Manager on vmail, and the police not being interested at all certainly doesn't make them look wiser. Plus, if he was run for warrants illegally, that's the fruit of a poisonous tree kind of a deal. I suspect that this is going to be an issue for both Maplewood and St. Louis City.

    I wish there was audio from the very beginning, but hey, you get what you got.
    I would get a local attorney to help with the warrant issue, no need to bring in someone from across the state to handle that. But, I do agree that now is not the time to talk to the cheapest attorney out there for the initial arrest. Who knows, mebbe the ACLU would throw you a bone (meh, who am I kidding...)

    On a completely other hand, it has been most of our understandings that OC was perfectly fine with Wal-Mart. I haven't OC'ed with them, but I would definitely shake their tree and find out why an employee there had you arrested, without first asking you to leave (assuming that's what happened.) The response might be interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    In lancers' favor is the following: the decision not to press charges, the fact that he has a CCW, which means that possession is not a crime, even if he refuses to leave. Plus the fact that he can prove (I assume) that he wasn't asked to leave Wal-Mart, which is necessary for it to rise to the level of an infraction. All of that points to the Maplewood PD not knowing the laws they were asked to enforce. And, having the City Manager on vmail, and the police not being interested at all certainly doesn't make them look wiser. Plus, if he was run for warrants illegally, that's the fruit of a poisonous tree kind of a deal. I suspect that this is going to be an issue for both Maplewood and St. Louis City.

    I wish there was audio from the very beginning, but hey, you get what you got.
    I would get a local attorney to help with the warrant issue, no need to bring in someone from across the state to handle that. But, I do agree that now is not the time to talk to the cheapest attorney out there for the initial arrest. Who knows, mebbe the ACLU would throw you a bone (meh, who am I kidding...)

    On a completely other hand, it has been most of our understandings that OC was perfectly fine with Wal-Mart. I haven't OC'ed with them, but I would definitely shake their tree and find out why an employee there had you arrested, without first asking you to leave (assuming that's what happened.) The response might be interesting.
    Just to clarify, the bad warrant is out of St. Louis County, not the City.

    I'll just take care of the failure to pay the fine (on the appealed ticket) myself. I have the Court of Appeals filing that I filed through the St. Louis County Courts that they wrote, no bond. Like I said, I even called the court the ticket was out of to make sure they were aware so this didn't happen as I heard it was common.

    Yeah, the ACLU probably won't bite on it. They did another one of my cases for me, but they are not to hip on firearms.

    Basically, the only thing missing from the video is the cop calling me over, taking my gun, and asking if I was a cop. Of course the store was packed on Saturday and everyone just stopped and looked. He drug me to the security office and that is when he asked for ID. As he was dragging me up front, I pulled my phone out and finally got it recording just a few seconds before I was put into cuffs.

    I was under the understanding that what ever is legal in the state, is ok in the Wal-Mart. I did get the name of the guy who called and the other guy with him. They were jerks and said you can't open carry in Wal-Mart. Whatever, I will call cooperate, but that is on the bottom of my priories. I will for sure be getting the 911 call and dispatch recordings.

  18. #18
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Just curious, maybe I missed something. Did the officer say "You are under arrest for open carrying of a firearm?".

    Really, if he did you really need a lawyer to help you. Heck, give the ACLU a shot, never know. If not let your fingers do the walking. You are in the right.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    Regular Member Tony4310's Avatar
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    I would say lets protest either Wal-Mart or Maplewood,but I don't think a bunch of armed protesters would go over well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lancers View Post
    Just to clarify, the bad warrant is out of St. Louis County, not the City.
    Here's the stupid part: I wrote St. Louis City, thought to myself, was that City of County, went back to your original post to confirm, saw that it was St. Louis County, and promptly forgot all about changing my post. Oh well, sorry about that.

    After listening to the audio, I didn't ever hear the LEO give a reason for your arrest other than the warrant. That might give you a steeper hill to climb.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony4310 View Post
    I would say lets protest either Wal-Mart or Maplewood,but I don't think a bunch of armed protesters would go over well.
    Right, it would not....
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

  22. #22
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    Here's the stupid part: I wrote St. Louis City, thought to myself, was that City of County, went back to your original post to confirm, saw that it was St. Louis County, and promptly forgot all about changing my post. Oh well, sorry about that.

    After listening to the audio, I didn't ever hear the LEO give a reason for your arrest other than the warrant. That might give you a steeper hill to climb.
    Ditto. There is a big difference.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

  23. #23
    Regular Member Tony4310's Avatar
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    I came to the same after listening as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony4310 View Post
    I came to the same after listening as well.
    You have to remember the original detention is a separate issue than the warrant, and that detention was illegal. Several cities in several states have had to pay out settlements for just that. The usual Settlement taken for an illegal detention caused from open carry is around 20K. Now the other wrongfully warrant stuff is outside of my studies and I am not sure of the case law for it.

    Doc

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    Regular Member Tony4310's Avatar
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    The wrongful warrant falls on the issuing city/county in this case. They would be responsible for that,not Maplewood, unless MW knew it was wrongful and did it anyways . Now as far as detention on the gun issue. That it self could win against Maplewood.

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