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Thread: Who knew CCW training was so dangerous?

  1. #1
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    Who knew CCW training was so dangerous?

    http://www.kansascity.com/2011/03/12...estigated.html

    I don't really know anything more than this, but shooting yourself in the chest sounds out of scope for the class...

    Well crap, posted that to the wrong state, sorry about that..

    ......--Moderator Note--
    Moved briefly to Kansas forum to create a temporary reference. Then to Gen. Discussion as it is not about OC.
    Last edited by kcgunfan; 03-13-2011 at 03:51 PM. Reason: I'm a moron....

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Poor muzzle discipline and finger on the bang switch.

    Cannot imagine training as such with live ammo.

    IMO the instructor is at the least indirectly responsible.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Poor muzzle discipline and finger on the bang switch.

    Cannot imagine training as such with live ammo.

    IMO the instructor is at the least indirectly responsible.
    Really? With all the detail the article provided you were able to assign responsibility?

    Sounds like it may have been some weak-hand and/or cross-hand training. But how the muzzle got turned around to point at his chest is still a major question.

    Also, if he's teaching the State CCW course which seems to have a set curriculum, he should stick to the State lesson plan and do additional training in a separate class.

    stay safe.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Really? With all the detail the article provided you were able to assign responsibility?
    My opinion was based upon allowing live ammunition in a training exercise - not a good practice - an invitation for disaster.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I didnt realize that Missouri had state-sanctioned training classes for committing a crime...

    CCW is a crime. It is NOT a license, permit, or privilege.

    Missouri doesn't even issue a seperate card like most states. They give you an additional endorsement on your DL.

    In Missouri it would be a CCE (Concealed Carry Endorsement).

    CCW means "Carrying a Concealed Weapon", and a MO CCE does NOT give you the legal ability to carry any concealed weapon--ONLY a handgun.

    Please, stop using this term. It describes a crime, not a permit...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 03-14-2011 at 03:57 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I didnt realize that Missouri had state-sanctioned training classes for committing a crime...

    CCW is a crime. It is NOT a license, permit, or privilege.

    Missouri doesn't even issue a seperate card like most states. They give you an additional endorsement on your DL.

    In Missouri it would be a CCE (Concealed Carry Endorsement).

    CCW means "Carrying a Concealed Weapon", and a MO CCE does NOT give you the legal ability to carry any concealed weapon--ONLY a handgun.

    Please, stop using this term. It describes a crime, not a permit...
    In Mo CCW is the common term for "Carry Concealed Weapon". It is the term used by the general public, to describe the legal carrying of a concealed weapon. Missouri allows either an endorsement on the DL or you can pay an additional charge and receive a card, similar to your DL.

    Here's the section on unlawful use of a weapon for my state.


    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000030.HTM



    Unlawful use of weapons--exceptions--penalties.
    571.030. 1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:

    (1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or

    (2) Sets a spring gun; or

    (3) Discharges or shoots a firearm into a dwelling house, a railroad train, boat, aircraft, or motor vehicle as defined in section 302.010, or any building or structure used for the assembling of people; or

    (4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner; or

    (5) Has a firearm or projectile weapon readily capable of lethal use on his or her person, while he or she is intoxicated, and handles or otherwise uses such firearm or projectile weapon in either a negligent or unlawful manner or discharges such firearm or projectile weapon unless acting in self-defense;

    (6) Discharges a firearm within one hundred yards of any occupied schoolhouse, courthouse, or church building; or

    (7) Discharges or shoots a firearm at a mark, at any object, or at random, on, along or across a public highway or discharges or shoots a firearm into any outbuilding; or

    (8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof; or

    (9) Discharges or shoots a firearm at or from a motor vehicle, as defined in section 301.010, discharges or shoots a firearm at any person, or at any other motor vehicle, or at any building or habitable structure, unless the person was lawfully acting in self-defense; or

    (10) Carries a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any school, onto any school bus, or onto the premises of any function or activity sponsored or sanctioned by school officials or the district school board.

    Here is the exemption for CC.

    4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

    So you see we can, in fact, carry a weapon concealed as opposed to only a firearm.

    While I appreciate your point about "Carrying a Concealed Weapon", please don't feel you have the right to tell me or other members of my state what we can call a thing in our own state.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    My opinion was based upon allowing live ammunition in a training exercise - not a good practice - an invitation for disaster.
    And you and I have attended and participated in several training excercises with loaded handguns where we shot the dayligts out of targets.

    I agree that first practice of a new movement/technique is much safer when the firearm is not loaded, but once the movement has been "learned" it becomes necessary to add the aspect of manipulating the loaded firearm.

    Further, I'm still trying to visualize how a crossdraw, weak-hand draw, or other move gets the muzzle pointed at the chest. The best I can come up with is weak hand going all the way around the back then coming around again - and that points the muzzle at the side, not the chest. But we know reporters know as much about anatomy as they do about firearms.

    stay safe.

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Further, I'm still trying to visualize how a crossdraw, weak-hand draw, or other move gets the muzzle pointed at the chest.
    stay safe.
    Will give empty hand, visual demo when next we shall meet. Mean while, try imagining tucking the gun in your arm pit to correct your grip.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I didnt realize that Missouri had state-sanctioned training classes for committing a crime...

    CCW is a crime. It is NOT a license, permit, or privilege.

    Missouri doesn't even issue a seperate card like most states. They give you an additional endorsement on your DL.

    In Missouri it would be a CCE (Concealed Carry Endorsement).

    CCW means "Carrying a Concealed Weapon", and a MO CCE does NOT give you the legal ability to carry any concealed weapon--ONLY a handgun.

    Please, stop using this term. It describes a crime, not a permit...
    Wow, I don't think I've ever had to read such a strong concentration of wrong. It's going to take me some time to respond to all of this...

    First sentence: In MO, there is no CCW crime. There is only Unlawful use of a weapon, which includes illegal concealed carry, spring guns, firing from cars and other things. You have the cite from above already. As such, the training is referred to as CCW training across the state.

    Second sentence: In MO, you have a choice, you can add an endorsement to your DL, or you can set a separate non-Drivers license with the endorsement. Otherwise, it would be impossible for non-drivers to get their CCW endorsement, wouldn't it?

    Third sentence: You may view a picture of a license with the endorsement here: http://dor.mo.gov/drivers/ccwlicense.php . The endorsement clearly reads "CCW until MM-DD-YYYY". Since it says CCW, I refer to it as such, to avoid confusion. And, I usually do refer to it as the "CCW endorsement", when I speak about the endorsement. But the context of this post is not about the endorsement, but the training.

    Fourth sentence: The Missouri CCW endorsement permits you to carry concealed any weapon that is otherwise not prohibited by law. Therefore, it's not a handgun only license. You have the cite above also. If it were a Handgun only license, it would certainly not be called CCW, that would be illogical. Unfortunately, there aren't many other weapons that you can conceal, that are legal. Tasers and OC are not weapons in MO, so it's pretty much batons and knives (with the appropriate restrictions.)

    Fifth sentence: This may very well describe the situation in your state. But, it certainly does not apply to the state I live in, which is the same state as this post is about. Please become much more conversant with the laws and practices in the other 49 states before you tell us how we're wrong. This appears to be a special crusade of yours, and I respect the audacity of anyone who tries to change the status quo. But, in Missouri at least, you are severely misguided.

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    Apparently, the use of the abbreviation CCW in MO is actually official. Even if it weren't, does that nit require all that picking? When someone talks about their "CCW" permit, I know exactly what they mean. It irks me just a tad, but not nearly as much as the incessant nitpicking about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Will give empty hand, visual demo when next we shall meet. Mean while, try imagining tucking the gun in your arm pit to correct your grip.
    That wasn't the draw. That would be a severe case of post-draw stupidity!! If he did that and shot himself in the process, the man deserves this year's Darwin Award. The gene pool needs that kind of chlorine.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    That wasn't the draw. That would be a severe case of post-draw stupidity!! If he did that and shot himself in the process, the man deserves this year's Darwin Award. The gene pool needs that kind of chlorine.
    The article doesn't reference "draw". We are very limited by what little we know about this.

    The reference is" while trying an advanced firing technique".

    Have seen many extreme circumstance techniques including racking a semi-auto with your belt - all require proper discipline to solve a only one hand working problem. Also shooting prone, feet first to protect the head and trunk. Definitely not normal course of instruction though.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    From the article:

    "accidentally shot himself in the chest earlier this month in Douglas County while trying an advanced firing technique with a weapon he wasn’t familiar with using."

    What "advanced firing technique" involves pointing a firearm, loaded or not, at one's own chest? I won't even do barrel inspections until my firearm is completely disassembled, and then, I do it from the breech end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The article doesn't reference "draw".
    Actually, it does (en bold).

    "The newspaper reported that Seymour was right-handed but was practicing drawing a semiautomatic 9 mm handgun with his left hand, taking the safety off and shooting."

    The article called it a "very, very advanced technique." I call it basic marksmanship, as one never knows when one might be winged. I have two hands. If I can't draw and fire with either one, I'm only half effective as I should be. In order to draw with my left hand, I really have to twist my thumb in, down, and under to grab my firearm right-side up. After drawing from the holster, the firearm is in the correct position without the muzzle ever sweeping my chest.

    Sounds to me like he tried withdrawing it upside down and wound up flipping it, and his chest, through the line of fire.
    Last edited by since9; 03-14-2011 at 04:02 PM.
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    Draw and shoot your self in the chest.

    Maybe he was wearing a shoulder holster. He was drawing it out with his left hand from under his left arm and taking the safty off at the same time. Gun would be pointed at his chest as he was drawing it and removing the safety and maybe he had his finger on the trigger all at the same time!!!! Just my observation of the article. I would need more information for a clear picture but that is how I picture it hapening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

    So you see we can, in fact, carry a weapon concealed as opposed to only a firearm.

    While I appreciate your point about "Carrying a Concealed Weapon", please don't feel you have the right to tell me or other members of my state what we can call a thing in our own state.

    You are correct, I don't have the right to tell you what to call your CCE.

    Your own legislators have that right and duty, and they have, in fact, been so kind as to very specifically use the proper procedures to put it in your state statute, which spells it out pretty plainly right there for you...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 03-14-2011 at 05:26 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    We need not speculate any more. The other thread has a video showing the maneuver and the mistake that likely killed the trainee. The trainer should not have been teaching this man the technique. The practice should not have been done with a loaded gun. But, ultimately, the problem lies with the shooter who should have known better and absolutely avoided pointing the loaded gun at his chest.

    He violated all four rules. Following any of the first three would have prevented the tragedy.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    This appears to be a special crusade of yours, and I respect the audacity of anyone who tries to change the status quo. But, in Missouri at least, you are severely misguided.
    I stand corrected.

    Thank you for setting me straight on the subtleties of the law in MO. It appears that your Concealed Weapons laws (much like your terminology) are a rather rare anomaly in the US, and I was unaware that your laws were so unique and contrary to the general trends in this nation.

    However, it appears that your state is the exception, not the rule. Your state's use of "CCW" on your permit/DL is a nearly unique anomaly in the USA. I find it particularly interesting that the actual Statute that defines the terms of your Endorsement calls it a "Concealed Carry Endorsement", not a CCW. Having two different terms used for your permit is, at best, administratively sloppy.

    I would venture to guess it's not the fault of your legislature though, but more likely non-compliance with the wording of the statutes by your DMV.

    DMV's are notorious for making up the rules for themselves, often in violation of State Statutes, and even in contradiction to logic, and the very laws of nature...

    I apologize for my incorrect information and assessment of your Statutes. I was wrong, and I stand corrected.

    But your DMV really needs to get with the program, and at least use the same terminology on their endorsements that is used in the State Statutes.

    A good prosecutor could have a royal field day with this one if he wanted to make things difficult for a MO CCE holder, because technically, nobody in MO with an "Endorsement" has anything on their DL or ID that relates to the terms, wording or verbiage of the State Statutes...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    We need not speculate any more. The other thread has a video showing the maneuver and the mistake that likely killed the trainee. The trainer should not have been teaching this man the technique. The practice should not have been done with a loaded gun. But, ultimately, the problem lies with the shooter who should have known better and absolutely avoided pointing the loaded gun at his chest.

    He violated all four rules. Following any of the first three would have prevented the tragedy.
    Link?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  19. #19
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Link?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7AMMF7WaB8
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    That is precisely the drill that I envisioned and why I originally said the instructor was remiss in allowing live ammo and in combination with teaching this technique to other than a very advanced student.

    I stand by that analysis.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    That is precisely the drill that I envisioned and why I originally said the instructor was remiss in allowing live ammo and in combination with teaching this technique to other than a very advanced student.

    I stand by that analysis.
    And amazingly enough, I agree with you.

    Stupid technique thast I learned not to do many moons ago just because of the probability of moving the muzzle towards the body. There are better and safer ways to obtain the handgun using the weak hand.

    stay safe.

  22. #22
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    I see two faults here: The instructor for trying to teach an advanced technique to a non-advanced student and with live ammunition. The student for even thinking of trying this with a loaded weapon that he is not familiar with.

    As I understand the story, the student was used to a revolver, but was given a semi-automatic pistol for this exercise. That adds another dimension entirely.

    IMNSHO, the instructor should be held criminally liable for this man's death.

  23. #23
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    well,,,

    ive been thinking about this a lot!

    i think the story is bogus!
    i have practiced this move lots of times, with both hands!
    their is no need to allow the muzzle to point at your chest!
    the video shows a very contorted hold, in order to get the left index finger to the safety lever!
    the hold is soooo contorted, to bend the wrist unnaturally, in order to get the muzzle pointed at the chest!
    I think the shooter must have committed suicide!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    ive been thinking about this a lot!

    I think the shooter must have committed suicide!
    Unfortunately there is no net difference - not to his family, friends or co-workers.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    and,,,

    in addition to post no. 23,,,

    it makes more sense to point the gun straight down, by your thigh,
    and use your leg to do the rotation on, works good, mucho safer!
    and,, i can do it, using my hand only! i have long fingers, and its pointed down!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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