Administrator? Moderator??

tenletters · Mar 14, 2011

I find no site mechanism to pm the Moderator of the Michigan site, but I have pm'd the Opencarry.org Administrator but have recieved no response. I would like to relay, via email, my information needs as they relate to Michigan regarding specifically banks and schools. There is a weath of information on the threads but it is nearly impossible to compile the info in such a manner as to present an information file. Moreover, it's hard to determine the expertise of the various posters. Can the Michigan Moderator or an Administrator please email me??

smellslikemichigan · Mar 14, 2011

don't do it, it's a trap!
(there is no michigan admin)

mastiff69 · Mar 14, 2011

First off tenletters welcome to ocdo, you will find most of your info on the first page. In the sticky area,
the rest you will get from experience by interacting with fellow OC ers

Hey ten letters why are you here ?

You have not responded to any of us !

If you are pro welcome Bro
We are here to educate the masses, to all of our rights.

If your Anti, go away and cry

If your a troll, go back in your hole

TheQ · Mar 14, 2011

Is there a specific question we can help you with? We provide citations (usually).

autosurgeon · Mar 14, 2011

This is a strange first post:uhoh:

DanM · Mar 14, 2011

Anyone else get the feeling that the OPs words and writing style seem taken out of the Nigerian Scam playbook? Let me show you:

I find no site mechanism to pm the Moderator of the Michigan site, but I have pm'd the Opencarry.org Administrator but have recieved no response. I would like to relay, via email, my information needs as they relate to a huge sum of money left by a deceased account holder. There is a weath of information on the threads but it is nearly impossible to compile the info in such a manner as to present an information file. I now seek your permission to have you stand as a next of kin to the deceased, as all documentations will be carefully worked out by a lawyer for the funds. Moreover, it's hard to determine the expertise of the various posters. Can the Michigan Moderator or an Administrator please email me?? I shall be compensating you with 25% of the total sum on final conclusion of this project for your assistance.

The parts in bold are from Nigerian Scam examples. I say they fit right in!

Careful replying to this guy. He may be scamming in some way for some info.

stainless1911 · Mar 14, 2011

OC with a CPL in a school ok. OC or CC in a bank ok with CPL ok. OC in bank or school without CPL no.

I find this a suspicious thread as well.

kryptonian · Mar 14, 2011

it's lurkers. look out. am i the only one that is almost immediately suspicious of new people popping up? think we can all spot something that sounds out of the ordinary by now. there's going to be more of this as we get more press. look out. anti-guns are looking to hang us. don't give them rope.

stainless1911 · Mar 14, 2011

Most of us are wary, yes. Good advice kryptonian.

tenletters · Mar 14, 2011

Easy on the conspiracy paranoia, you'll give the dark side ammunition. I've probably shot more rounds than nearly anyone here, have a CPL, and as interested in promoting open (or concealed) carry as most who post here.
Mine was l legitimate request I should think, when I clicked on Administrator I got a link to message him, I just received no answer.
I serve on the board of directors of a Michigan bank holding company. I do double duty as a member of a board of education. While I've browsed the site I can glean lots of information, but hardly in a format I can give a representation to a board with. If I copy a thread I also get input from who knows about what he THINKS is the law, while I need some case law documentation, a bit of law history, etc.
If you wish to diseminate useful information on the legality of open carry I should think someone would be willing, nay eager, to supply that which he knows. I suspect when you approach a neophite, say an unbelieving prosecutor or sheriff you must have some printable information with which to make your case. I simply wish to access it and make the case to others and figured it would take up less bandwidth to do it via email. If I could deal with one knowledgeable person it would make it much easier than input from many.

VW_Factor · Mar 14, 2011

Patience sir.

Otherwise, if there is a post bothering you. Again, there is a report post button.

stainless1911 · Mar 15, 2011

Let me assure you sir, we are ready willing and able to do what needs to be done to further the RKBA, or to help our with individuals or organizations who are seeking or are in need of information. Open carry, especially in pistol free areas, and doubly in schools, is at the tip of the spear regarding firearms rights preservation and awareness. If you are legit, I hope you realise this, and as a result, we occasionally see trolls here. We are also monitored by antis, LEOs, and folks on the other half of a courtroom, so we have to be careful.

Michigan Open Carry does have some literature available, but as has been pointed out before, read the stickies, all the basic information about OC is there. One of OCDOs rules are that if you make a claim about some legal point, that you should provide a cite, proving what you say.

See the following threads, and if you have specific questions, ask.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?81204-Open-Carry-Guide-Project

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?67581-Michigan-open-carry-reference-chart

DanM · Mar 15, 2011

tenletters said:
Moreover, it's hard to determine the expertise of the various posters.

tenletters said:
If you wish to diseminate useful information on the legality of open carry I should think someone would be willing, nay eager, to supply that which he knows.

If you wish to get a better feel for other people's expertise and receive more information on the legality of open carry I should think someone would be willing, nay eager, to come to an OC gathering.

Look for gatherings posted on this website. See ya there.

stainless1911 · Mar 15, 2011

As far as your original questions about banks and schools.

MCL 750.234d is a list of prohibited places, punishments and exceptions to the law. schools are not on that list banks are, I'll explain in a sec. toward the bottom of that law (subsection 2), there are the people exempted from the list of places listed in subsection 1. CPL holders are on that list. There is another list of prohibited places, but that only pertains to CPL holders, and only while they are concealing their pistol. MCL 28.425o. Schools are on that list, banks are not. What this means is that it is not illegal to CC in a bank because it is not on the list of prohibited places for concealment in MCL 28.425o, and it is legal to OC in a bank because in MCL 750.234d does not apply to those with a CPL, therefore you can OC or CC in a bank if you have a CPL, but neither OC or CC without a CPL. Schools are not listed as prohibited places under 234d, and are only dealt with concerning concealment in 425o, therefore you may only openly carry with a CPL in a school. There is an exception for concealment in 425o for parents in a parking lot picking up or dropping off a child at the school. The federal 1,000 foot school zone law, (I forgot the cite) allows an exemption for those licensed by their state. This would include those who have a CPL, and those who have obtained a license to purchase, ie. a purchase permit. This allows an open carrier to be free from violating the 1,000 foot rule accidentally being near a school.

Grapeshot · Mar 15, 2011

tenletters said:
I find no site mechanism to pm the Moderator of the Michigan site, but I have pm'd the Opencarry.org Administrator but have recieved no response. I would like to relay, via email, my information needs as they relate to Michigan regarding specifically banks and schools. There is a weath of information on the threads but it is nearly impossible to compile the info in such a manner as to present an information file. Moreover, it's hard to determine the expertise of the various posters. Can the Michigan Moderator or an Administrator please email me??

You have something to say? Spit it out - then the membership will respond and sort things out. We have no idea who or what you are. Our secrets are open for all to see - so yours should be.

The site administrator is doing double and triple duty and does not generally handle personal requests until they have been filtered here. What are you selling?

Speak - you shall be heard.

Bronson · Mar 15, 2011

I'll take a crack at it.

MCL 750.234d

Lists places where we are not allowed to possess a firearm. This law does not regulate concealed carry of a pistol as there is another law for that. These are often colloquially referred to as the "open carry gun free zones."

1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre.

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

You'll notice that financial institutions, but not schools, are listed as prohibited.

In that same law there are also several conditional exceptions.

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

So a person with a CPL is exempt from most of the restrictions listed in 750.234d, including the prohibition on openly carried firearms possession in a financial institution. (courts are still a no-go due to a Michigan Supreme Court Administrative Order). Since a school is not listed in .234d's prohibited list this law does not restrict the open carry of a pistol in a school (there is another law for that).

If we look at MCL 28.425o we get the list of places where we cannot carry a concealed pistol.

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

(c) A sports arena or stadium.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

(g) A hospital.

(h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

(2) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

Here you'll find a prohibition on concealed carry in a school but no mention of a financial institution. However, .425o only regulates the carry of a concealed pistol so if the pistol is carried openly then .425o does not apply.

MCL 750.237a is the law that regulates weapon possession in a school or on school grounds.

(1) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 224, 224a, 224b, 224c, 224e, 226, 227, 227a, 227f, 234a, 234b, or 234c, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for a second or subsequent time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a felony punishable by 1 or more of the following:

(a) Imprisonment for not more than the maximum term of imprisonment authorized for the section violated.

(b) Community service for not more than 150 hours.

(c) A fine of not more than 3 times the maximum fine authorized for the section violated.

(2) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(1), 224d, 226a, 227c, 227d, 231c, 232a(1) or (4), 233, 234, 234e, 234f, 235, 236, or 237, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for the first time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

(a) Imprisonment for not more than the maximum term of imprisonment authorized for the section violated or 93 days, whichever is greater.

(b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.

(c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00 or the maximum fine authorized for the section violated, whichever is greater.

(3) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to conduct proscribed under a section enumerated in those subsections to the extent that the proscribed conduct is otherwise exempted or authorized under this chapter.

(4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:

(a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.

(b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.

(c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.

Here you'll see that it is clearly illegal to possess a weapon in "weapon free school zone," which is defined later in the law:

(d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.

However, this law also provides certain exceptions...one of which is being licensed to carry a concealed weapon.

(5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:

(a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

(d) An individual who possesses a weapon provided by a school or a school's instructor on school property for purposes of providing or receiving instruction in the use of that weapon.

(e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.

(f) An individual who is 18 years of age or older who is not a student at the school and who possesses a firearm on school property while transporting a student to or from the school if any of the following apply:

(i) The individual is carrying an antique firearm, completely unloaded, in a wrapper or container in the trunk of a vehicle while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area or function involving the exhibition, demonstration or sale of antique firearms.

(ii) The individual is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle, while in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or proof of valid membership in an organization having shooting range facilities, and while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.

(iii) The person is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.

(iv) The person is carrying an unloaded firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle that does not have a trunk, if the person is otherwise complying with the requirements of subparagraph (ii) or (iii) and the wrapper or container is not readily accessible to the occupants

There is also the issue of the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act.

U.S. Code Title 18; Part I; Chapter 44; § 922; Paragraph q; Sub-paragraph 2(A):

(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

But reading a little further we see that this law also provides exceptions.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm—
(i) on private property not part of school grounds;

(ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license;

(iii) that is—

(I) not loaded; and

(II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;

(iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;

(v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an employer of the individual;

(vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or

(vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.

A "school zone" is defined as:

(25) The term “school zone” means—

(A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or

(B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school.

Exception (ii) is satisfied with either a CPL or the Michigan License to Purchase/Possess a pistol.

To recap:

750.234d prohibits firearm possession (open carry) on the premises of a bank, unless you have a CPL or meet one of the other exceptions.

28.234d prohibits carrying a concealed pistol in a school. So if the pistol is openly carried .234d does not apply.

750.237a prohibits weapons possesion in a "weapon free school zone," but exempts anybody licensed to carry a concealed weapon.

The Federal Gun Free School Zone Act prohibits possession of a firearm in a "school zone", but also exempts anybody that the state has determined is qualified and has a license to possess the firearm.

I think that's it.

Bronson

stainless1911 · Mar 15, 2011

Lets not forget preemption, MCL 123.1102, which prevents local units of government from passing ordinances and such from screwing over the citizen any more than the state and feds already do. (remember, laws dont apply to criminals)

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%28sn5j1w55hv2rhg3ebxw2b2qv%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-123-1102

123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.
Sec. 2.
A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

malignity · Mar 15, 2011

Please feel free to ask any questions you have here and we will answer them to the best of our ability. The vast majority of us know the laws well in regards to carry; as it is in our best interest to do so. The amount of law-assumption here is minimal at best. Those who are regular posters on this forum open carry on a daily basis and need to know the laws to help protect them against those that aren't as familiar.

One of the links provided is the Open Carry Guide Project that I have written. All of the information contained within is accurate with Michigan law; and is utilized by multiple firearms organizations in Michigan up to and including Michigan Open Carry Inc. and Michigan Gun Owners. There may be other firearms organizations that use this guide as well that I am unaware of.

If you feel that you have not had your questions answered in a way that fulfills your need, please feel free to contact the Board of Directors at board@miopencarry.org and we will do our best to facilitate any questions you may have.

smellslikemichigan · Mar 15, 2011

tenletters said:
I've probably shot more rounds than nearly anyone here

oh, that old gag? pretty bold statement on a forum comprised of nothing BUT gun owners. :banghead:

wrightme · Mar 15, 2011

The best source of information is the statutes of your state. Links may be in the "maps" to the relevant statute. Look up in the header of the webpage.

tenletters said:
Easy on the conspiracy paranoia, you'll give the dark side ammunition. I've probably shot more rounds than nearly anyone here, have a CPL, and as interested in promoting open (or concealed) carry as most who post here.
Mine was l legitimate request I should think, when I clicked on Administrator I got a link to message him, I just received no answer.
I serve on the board of directors of a Michigan bank holding company. I do double duty as a member of a board of education. While I've browsed the site I can glean lots of information, but hardly in a format I can give a representation to a board with. If I copy a thread I also get input from who knows about what he THINKS is the law, while I need some case law documentation, a bit of law history, etc.
If you wish to diseminate useful information on the legality of open carry I should think someone would be willing, nay eager, to supply that which he knows. I suspect when you approach a neophite, say an unbelieving prosecutor or sheriff you must have some printable information with which to make your case. I simply wish to access it and make the case to others and figured it would take up less bandwidth to do it via email. If I could deal with one knowledgeable person it would make it much easier than input from many.

Administrator? Moderator??

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