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Thread: Interesting OC case ... acquitted

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    Regular Member Lord Sega's Avatar
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    Interesting OC case ... acquitted

    Kinda Off Topic ... or is it ?!?

    Article

  2. #2
    Regular Member Felix's Avatar
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    Glad he won. Now I can hope his civil suit(s) will be successful and hit that AZ county hard in the pocketbook for the arbitrary and vindictive behavior.
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    Regular Member simmonsjoe's Avatar
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    Not off topic in the least.

    Hope he wins a judgement.
    illegal ≠ immoral legal ≠ moral
    [SIZE=1]"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. "Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent." - Thomas Jefferson
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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    From the article:

    but deny access to the defendant because he had a 'holstered' pitchfork was arbitrary, capricious and unreasonable,
    How do you "holster" a pitchfork?

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    Regular Member protect our rights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    From the article:



    How do you "holster" a pitchfork?
    I would like to see them holsters!
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that is good" - George Washington

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    by using a maglite belt loop? lol

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    Campaign Veteran XD-GEM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    From the article:



    How do you "holster" a pitchfork?
    Blackhawk Serpa "American Gothic" model.

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XD-GEM View Post
    Blackhawk Serpa "American Gothic" model.
    Dot ez funniez.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member 1911er's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Dot ez funniez.
    Yah you bet ya

    But I wonder if he would have been stopped if it was concealed ha ha ha
    Last edited by 1911er; 04-01-2011 at 03:54 AM.
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    Or if it was sawed off. Wonder it if it had 3 tines or was it one of them 'high capacity' 4 prong models?

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    From the article:



    How do you "holster" a pitchfork?
    Laptop case? lol
    Molon Labe

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTheGreek View Post
    Laptop case? lol
    That'd work with a collapsable stock...
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    When pitchforks are outlawed...what will you use to turn the manure into the soil?

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    When pitchforks are outlawed...what will you use to turn the manure into the soil?
    Like always, the politicians will still be doing it.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    When pitchforks are outlawed...what will you use to turn the manure into the soil?
    Tweezers, but they're next on the list.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    I'll say it. He WAS tresspassing. The same rule applys there..if you are asked to leave and you don't, you're tresspassing. End of story. He was asked to leave and he didn't. Now, the reason he was asked to leave is retarded and should have resulted in an internal memo spelling out what exactly the policy is...allowing holstered handguns in but not 'holstered' pitchforks....but the reason matters little at the actual point of interaction. Asked to leave by the person that has the authority to do so...didn't leave.

    Now the other things that he is looking at filing suit for...unreasonable bail..case left off the docket..all that..go for it.

    But he was tresspassing.

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    Regular Member MikeTheGreek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    That'd work with a collapsable stock...
    Collapsible stock pitchfork?

    I like the way you think... somebody should make tese.
    Molon Labe

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    Regular Member hotrod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Custom Volusia View Post
    I'll say it. He WAS tresspassing. The same rule applys there..if you are asked to leave and you don't, you're tresspassing. End of story. He was asked to leave and he didn't. Now, the reason he was asked to leave is retarded and should have resulted in an internal memo spelling out what exactly the policy is...allowing holstered handguns in but not 'holstered' pitchforks....but the reason matters little at the actual point of interaction. Asked to leave by the person that has the authority to do so...didn't leave.

    Now the other things that he is looking at filing suit for...unreasonable bail..case left off the docket..all that..go for it.

    But he was tresspassing.
    Nope, not trespassing. You cannot give an illegal order (and that is what it was) and then charge a citizen with a crime. This took place on public property, not private, therefore trespassing is not the same. Trespassing on public property must include a crime, which is what they thought they had. The gentleman carrying the pitchfork was committing no crime, but law enforcement thought he was (ie. carrying a pitchfork). The judge ruled correctly, because he broke no law, he cannot be removed from public property.
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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Custom Volusia View Post
    I'll say it. He WAS tresspassing. The same rule applys there..if you are asked to leave and you don't, you're tresspassing. End of story. He was asked to leave and he didn't. Now, the reason he was asked to leave is retarded and should have resulted in an internal memo spelling out what exactly the policy is...allowing holstered handguns in but not 'holstered' pitchforks....but the reason matters little at the actual point of interaction. Asked to leave by the person that has the authority to do so...didn't leave.

    Now the other things that he is looking at filing suit for...unreasonable bail..case left off the docket..all that..go for it.

    But he was tresspassing.
    You can say it, but it doesn't necessarily make it true.
    Y'know ..... IF he was trespassing and it's so obvious, I kinda wonder why he was acquitted. And can you trespass on Public Property if you as a member of the Public have a reason to be there?
    KINGMAN - A Kingman man has been acquitted of trespassing charges more than a year after he attempted to bring a pitchfork into the county administration building. Judge Pro-tempore Paul Julien ruled March 5 that Mervin Fried was not guilty of third-degree trespassing.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 04-07-2011 at 07:50 PM.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogeater
    Wonder it if it had 3 tines or was it one of them 'high capacity' 4 prong models?
    Looking at the picture at the top of the article, it's clearly an evil 6-pronged assault pitchfork with curved tines. Looks like the tines might even be black. No wonder they stopped him!

    How's this for "reasoning"?:
    Walker [county manager] said when he stopped Fried [citizen carrying the Evil Black 6-pronged Assault Pitchfork] at the door and asked him to leave the pitchfork outside, Fried asked "Why?" He testified that based on that response he didn't know what Fried might do and decided that he might be a threat.
    What an utter idiot!!!
    Here's a citizen requiring a public official to explain himself, and the public official takes a simple question as a threat.
    Maybe Mr. Walker was formerly in law enforcement? That sort of 'thinking' has been shown much too often by members of that profession.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod View Post
    Nope, not trespassing. You cannot give an illegal order (and that is what it was) and then charge a citizen with a crime. This took place on public property, not private, therefore trespassing is not the same. Trespassing on public property must include a crime, which is what they thought they had. The gentleman carrying the pitchfork was committing no crime, but law enforcement thought he was (ie. carrying a pitchfork). The judge ruled correctly, because he broke no law, he cannot be removed from public property.
    You see, the way I'm reading the article is that the worker had EVERY right to tell the person to leave (making it trespassing) but the judge found him not guilty based on the presedence already set with the handguns entering the place...so he was not applying their policy fairly across the board. Seems to me like the judge used this case to remind of them of that. lines like

    "In his ruling, Julien found that Walker DID HAVE the authority to restrict access to the building. However, Walker's "decision to allow members of the public with holstered handguns access to the building but deny access to the defendant because he had a 'holstered' pitchfork was arbitrary, capricious and unreasonable," Julien wrote."

    Just smacks of the court using this as an example case. Now, that being said, I still believe that since "Walker did have the authority to restrict access to the building" and we cannot know the specifics about what guidelines he falls under since almost EVERY federal/state building seems to have their own small variations on it...at the time, he was tresspassing.

    This is kinda like when a cop tells you that to get on the ground for no apparent reason. Sure you can be stubborn and say you didn't commit any crime and they have no reason to put you on the deck..but now you are failing to comply right there on the spot, and that is an actual crime. Ask that gentleman in Philly. Legal to carry yet didn't comply with the police when they stopped him and now he can't seem to find a lawyer to touch the case.

    A lot of federal and state employees have on the spot decision making powers that may lead the to make the wrong decisions. However, if you question them RIGHT THEN that can lead to actual violations. This guy, IN MY OPINION, was just lucky that the judge saw that the initial decision was bad and didn't follow through on charging him with the violation that we all know she could have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    You can say it, but it doesn't necessarily make it true.
    Y'know ..... IF he was trespassing and it's so obvious, I kinda wonder why he was acquitted. And can you trespass on Public Property if you as a member of the Public have a reason to be there?
    See above for why I think he was aquitted.

  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Custom Volusia View Post
    This is kinda like when a cop tells you that to get on the ground for no apparent reason. Sure you can be stubborn and say you didn't commit any crime and they have no reason to put you on the deck..but now you are failing to comply right there on the spot, and that is an actual crime.
    You are under no legal obligation to obey/follow an illegal order.

    Just be very sure that you are right and proceed with your best response in a time and place of your own choosing. Preferably later and not on the street.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    You are under no legal obligation to obey/follow an illegal order.

    Just be very sure that you are right and proceed with your best response in a time and place of your own choosing. Preferably later and not on the street.
    Not like anyone should have to back up what they say with ....ya'know citations to any laws or anything.

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Not like anyone should have to back up what they say with ....ya'know citations to any laws or anything.
    You are right, there generally is not such a requirement imposed on those things that are normally accepted as common knowledge. An unlawful order may be simplified as one "not lawful." Neither are to my knowledge codified. The requirement being that "lawful orders' must be obeyed. Unlawful orders do NOT fit that parameter.

    However, to your implied question there are on the books literally hundreds (maybe thousands) of cites referring to "lawful order" in the Code of Virgina. I am sure that is the case in most (all?) states. One such example appears following:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...5.2-104+502232

    Then there is the UCMJ standard:
    The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809.ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the "lawful command of his superior officer," 891.ART.91 (2), the "lawful order of a warrant officer", 892.ART.92 (1) the "lawful general order", 892.ART.92 (2) "lawful order". In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ.
    http://able2know.org/topic/113935-1

    Then there was the Nuremberg trial excuse: " I was following orders" - was not accepted as the orders were not lawful.

    Do you really need more?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 04-07-2011 at 10:26 PM. Reason: fixed
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    What an utter idiot!!!
    Here's a citizen requiring a public official to explain himself, and the public official takes a simple question as a threat.
    Exactly. The "I didn't know what he might do" excuse applies to everyone, as we never know what anyone will actually do, until after they've done it.

    No, he was NOT trespassing, and please quit wrongfully claiming he was, Custom. He had a right to be in the building. The precedent had been set with respect to allowing armed citizens into the building. He was armed, commensurate with the precedent that had been established. The judge found that allowing one type of armament while denying another, and a less dangerous one at that, was "arbitrary and capricious."

    I'm surprised he didn't show up with a pitchfork again the day after the ruling. He had every right to do so, and a won court case to back him up.
    Last edited by since9; 04-12-2011 at 05:53 PM.
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