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Thread: Newest email from Mike Bender (PPA)

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Newest email from Mike Bender (PPA)

    Greetings from Personal Protection Academy,

    The noise is getting louder about permit-less carry for Wisconsin. There’s not a week that goes by that I don’t receive a couple of gripes about why I’m conspicuously absent when it comes to promoting permit-less carry. So what is my stance, you ask? Here ya go …

    The prevailing gripes?

    The government shouldn’t be able to impose conditions on our Second Amendment rights!
    and
    Individuals should be able determine what and how much training they need!

    Permit-less carry, a.k.a. constitutional carry, means allowing eligible citizens to carry concealed weapons without requirements for permits or training. Essentially, their goal is to make it possible for anyone who can purchase a firearm from a licensed dealer to already be qualified to carry a gun.

    Although I’m quite fond of the thought of more law-abiding folks carrying guns in public places, I’m rather ill at ease about folks carrying them without adequate training. While there’s no doubt bearing arms in the cause of personal defense is certainly a right, it comes with a boatload of responsibilities that your average gun toting neighbor might not be prepared to discharge properly.

    Having spent the last six years conducting permit-to-carry and self-defense courses for more than 3000 clients, I have absolutely no doubt there’s value to mandated training before getting a permit. Why? Because I’ve seen first-hand just how unaware MOST people are when it comes to firearms and lawful use of force in self-defense.

    I’m talking about good people who make the understandable mistake of confusing what’s “just” with what’s legal. I routinely encounter lots of nice folks who can’t wrap their heads around the idea that they can’t legally shoot a retreating attacker. It’s simply beyond their comprehension that a supposed burglar, robber, mugger, murderer, rapist, or uninvited intruder in their home at two o’clock in the morning should be allowed to get away. I feel quite confident in telling you I’ve witnessed a real mixed bag of woefully inadequate training and understanding of the law among many who professed to having acquired training in NRA and hunter safety classes, in the military, at their local shooting range, on the back forty, or even during law enforcement training.

    And there are plenty of wannabe gun slingers that have little intention of becoming skilled with their weapons. For permit-less carry advocates who are confident those who’ll want to carry will also take responsibility for acquiring adequate training, Texas might offer a practical lesson, a state that requires mandated training from a state-certified instructor to qualify for a permit to carry. After years of having this permitting process in place, fewer than 4% of eligible Texans have acquired carry permits. Does anyone really believe that if all-of-a-sudden Texas were to change to a permit-less carry system that all of the many, many others who’d get the inclination to start packing would then all-of-a-sudden decide to get adequate training? Perhaps some will, but I expect most won’t.

    For those who need more examples of clueless behavior, please visit a gun show. You’ll promptly notice the many oblivious gun-toting wannabes wandering around with their fingers on triggers, a practice my clients recognize as being responsible for nearly 60% of all negligent discharges! Folks have their heads in the sand if they think unsafe practices aren’t going to be prolific in Wisconsin if permit-less (training-less) folks are handling their blasters in all sorts of public places.

    Here’s a surprise. I’m hearing the loudest objections to mandated training coming from many that I believe need it most. There are a bunch of folks who’ve convinced themselves they’re handgun pros and that the legal stuff is nothing more than common sense.

    Sadly, the requirements for obtaining a carry permit from some trainers today are no more stringent than attending an elementary three- to four-hour gun safety course and/or an exercise in box checking on a form … sorely inadequate. Here’s an excerpt from an email I received just last week. “I already have my Florida and Utah permits and have undergone the REQUIRED training for Utah and have proven proficiency for Florida with my NRA ‘Expert’ rating. The Utah training was nothing I couldn't have picked up by reading a manual or pamphlet. My Florida ‘proficiency’ is with a service rifle (AR-15) and has nothing to do with proficiency with a handgun. The ‘proficiency’ requirement for Utah was not much more than knowing which end of the gun the bullet came out of.” Those of you who have trained with me know this fellow did not.

    Stop me if you’ve heard this one. “A cop told me I’m better off shooting to kill so there won’t be any witnesses or personal-injury and wrongful-death litigation to deal with afterward.” Or this one: “I’ll blast him on the front porch and drag his carcass into the house before the cops get there.” … clear and convincing evidence that he’d been defending his castle.

    Hey! Guns are dangerous! If they weren’t, they wouldn’t be of much use. Having a bunch of them in untrained hands, pockets, holsters, purses, whatever, will put our families and fellow citizens at greater risk.

    I’m here to tell ya shooting ain’t easy. I know, because I’ve been doing it for decades and still make stupid mistakes like forgetting to disengage my safety on my carbine or shooting targets out of sequence. And if I can screw up in a controlled setting like one of my own courses, with my training and experience, imagine how someone who shoots once or twice a year will do in a lethal force encounter. Sure, they might get lucky and stop the wolf. Then again, that wolf could just as well kill them, or worse … the good guy might miss that wolf and put a bullet into an innocent.

    With the stakes so high, doesn’t it make sense for people to get training beyond a basic firearm safety class? I certainly think so.

    Besides, we already have too many high-profile tragedies involving firearms in the wrong hands. We just have to be extra cautious about some clueless gunslinger disrupting the current pro-self-defense momentum in this country. We know the anti-gun crowd never rests when it gets an opportunity to exploit anything to advance its agenda. It seems logical that mandatory robust training is one way of reducing the potential for incidents, negligence, and tragedies that they’ll feast upon.

    Aside from the utilitarian concern of whether permit-less carry improves or jeopardizes public safety, there are also important philosophical questions to be dealt with. Permit-less carry advocates are irrational about slippage in their Second Amendment rights. I just can’t agree with their representation that mandatory training would simply be another regulatory obstacle that has to be hurdled, a bureaucratic permission slip to exercising Second Amendment rights, and of course the rationale that it’s plainly a profit motive for professional trainers.

    But I’ll add that I’m in near-total agreement that bearing of arms is a fundamental, individual right and that the role of government is to defend that right and promote its vibrancy, rather than to seek out opportunities to squelch it as so many anti-gun, anti-self-defense zealots are determined to do.

    The aforementioned notwithstanding, I have the feeling that most permit-less carry activists would be in agreement with limiting the rights of convicted felons and the mentally ill. Allowing the government to determine that some people are unfit to possess or carry firearms seems inconsistent with the position that it’s wrong for the government to regulate the bearing of arms.

    And I doubt over-the-road truckers would get behind permit-less operation of those big rigs on our highways. I suspect the same is true for other danger-wrought professions and activities. How about you electricians, homebuilders, pilots, HAZMAT pros, and firefighters?

    Still others argue that they’re adamantly opposed to mandated training just to exercise a right guaranteed by our state and federal constitutions … no training required to vote, to speak, or to practice religion … so why should carrying guns be any different? I don’t think I’m stretching too much in thinking that voting, speaking and praying pose considerably less risk to me and my loved ones than if training-less voters, speakers, and prayers start loading, unloading, clearing, storing, transporting, and possibly discharging their guns in public places.

    I believe advocacy for effective, mandatory training is absolutely consistent with armed self-defense being a natural right that shouldn’t be rationed by an external authority. Training requirements need not serve as a form of “gun control,” in the sense that gun control laws serve as a tool to prevent people from exercising their rights. Instead, mandatory training should be seen as a way of facilitating the responsible employment of those Second Amendment rights.

    If it becomes possible for anyone to carry a gun (concealed or otherwise) unless they’re a convicted felon, spouse-beater, addict, or mentally impaired, I have real doubts that same level of commitment to responsible training would exist.

    In the REAL world maybe only 5% of Wisconsin citizens really know this stuff. Too many others are unconsciously incompetent. Those who intend to someday get adequate training are consciously incompetent. If you’re one of my graduates, you’re consciously competent, having sought adequate training in how to handle your equipment safely and lawfully. When responsibly implemented, I’ve seen first-hand how mandatory training can be beneficial. My clients are among my heroes, society’s sheepdogs. They have that training. They know those without adequate training don’t know what they don’t know.

    So, my stance is that I care that my family and I will feel and be safe among fellow citizens who might be carrying guns in public settings, openly or concealing. I’m going to be happy as a clam if each and every one of them can competently load, unload, clear, store, transport, shoot, and otherwise handle their self-defense equipment in a lawful manner without gruesome negligent discharges, unlawful actions, and harming of innocents. Of course I believe in mandated training!

    Now, please go influence our fellow voters.

    Let me know questions.

    With very best regards,

    Michael Bender
    Personal Protection Academy
    (888) 657-4668
    PPA-WI.com






    I agree with getting training and carrying for your personal protection is a great responsibility. I disagree with having to go to him or anyone who is a "certified" trainer. How did people learn 50+ years ago? As he thinks states who have gone Constitutional Carry, the people won't want to get training. I guess he hasn't looked at Arizona at all. In fact, since WI went from carry with lots of harassment/DC/etc to open carry, there haven't been issues. I do agree with him that felons should not own firearms, but only the violent ones. Today, there are so many things that can make you felon, such as a scarf suddenly turning red. I'd love to go into more of this, but my blood is still boiling.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member Vandil's Avatar
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    TLDR: Guy running a business doing firearms training supports mandatory training+permit system. (for those with ADHD)


    He doesn't really say if he supports a live fire training system requirement like Florida or a class room only system like Utah. Either way my WI hunters safety training taken way back in 89 was more in depth and had more range time than either state permit requirement.
    Last edited by Vandil; 03-16-2011 at 04:16 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    I've taken his UT class. He covers the law and describes certain things you can do to be more situationally aware. However, he provides almost zero help on how to shoot well. The class is qualification, not firearms training.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I've taken his UT class. He covers the law and describes certain things you can do to be more situationally aware. However, he provides almost zero help on how to shoot well. The class is qualification, not firearms training.
    I've taken his other handgun training. Skills and techniques are learned along with a rehash of the legal, civil, and moral issues. However, I don't think the average person would want to spend over a grand taking all of his courses. For as much as he says, he is still selling his business. And remember, this is the guy who said that open carrying was an invite of a pipe to the back of the head. Anybody get "piped" yet?

    But his points are the "typical" arguments against constitutional carry, no matter what the facts bear out in the states like Vermont, Alaska, and Arizona.
    (Wyoming doesn't have much history, yet).

  5. #5
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandil View Post
    TLDR: Guy running a business doing firearms training supports mandatory training+permit system. (for those with ADHD)


    He doesn't really say if he supports a live fire training system requirement like Florida or a class room only system like Utah. Either way my WI hunters safety training taken way back in 89 was more in depth and had more range time than either state permit requirement.
    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    I've taken his UT class. He covers the law and describes certain things you can do to be more situationally aware. However, he provides almost zero help on how to shoot well. The class is qualification, not firearms training.
    Great post Protias. It's nice to know what people like Michael Bender are up to. He still sounds like a real pinhead if you ask me... Looks like he's all "into the 2A", but he just does not know how to read it...
    Or, he just does not trust me at all (I carry now, so should I go to jail, or should I get banned from carry, or should I have to pay (him) to get the OK?). Talk about trust issues, now I don't trust him, AT ALL...
    As Vandil pointed out "Guy running a business doing firearms training supports mandatory training+permit system."... What a shock...
    Money, money, money...

  6. #6
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    I have to add my pennies in on this one, mostly because of my opinion of bender.

    For starters, if it was about the training and not the money, I am sure that he would agree to do classes for free. My FREE open carry course is far more in depth than any of his "Training". And that is a beginners course that costs the "Client" nothing for tuition. All the have to do is get here and supply their own equipment, meals, ammo, lodging, and time. He clearly addressed that the money aspect was part of the argument from those that were pushing for constitutional carry, but he failed miserably at admitting that he still charges several hundred dollars for his courses with no apparent discounts.

    Second of all, it really PI$$E$ me off that he talks like he knows anything about first hand self defense. He admitted to me personally the one time that I met him that he knows nothing about what I have been through when discussing personal defense with a firearm. He clearly stated to me that he has never had to defend himself with a firearm, and if a "Certified Trainer/Instructor" has never been in that position it is impossible to even understand the true effects that it will have on his "Clients". He also tried to tell me that he had read the U.S. Navy's escalation of force protocol and water borne security SOP and that I knew nothing about it. Despite the fact that I have a letter of commendation on my wall as I type this that is for writing both of them in 2000. This is used not only NAVY wide for firearms training, but is also the document that helped start the schooling for anti piracy operations.

    Third of all, much like in martial arts, clients are people who pay you for a service, and students are people who gain something from what you have to teach them. It is not derogatory to call someone a student, it is exactly what the word suggests, a person who is learning something new.

    Yes, firearms are dangerous, and yes, people do need training, but the solution to safety that keeps with supporting our constitutional rights is not charging 3000 people $300 each ($900,000 in 10 years BTW) to learn what they can read about. The real solution is having someone with experience that students can grasp and understand that will cause them to want to get out and become better at what they do in order to keep themselves and their families safe from nutcasees like Laughner, without having to make money off the safety of others. To me that is a lot like saying if you don't learn how to drive from me, you will get into an accident every time you turn on the car. And that would be from someone who had never driven a car.

    He has made clear why he is teaching people "Firearms Safety", because it pays well.

    My position on bender is that he capitalizes on fear, just like the anti gunners out there. And he will continue to do so until someone takes away his superman self image. He obviously has a view point that would allow him to give himself daily visual prostate exams.

    But that is just my opinion, whether factual or not.

    P.S. I know of another bender taht preys on people.
    Last edited by CalicoJack10; 03-16-2011 at 06:14 PM.
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    As I've said before, "With friends like this, who needs enemies?"
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    As I've said before, "With friends like this, who needs enemies?"
    No kidding.

    If the federal government says I am responsible enough to own a gun, I don't see how I'd be any less responsible in carrying it on my person.

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    Regular Member comp45acp's Avatar
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    I've known Michael for a few years. In about 2005-06 I recall him asking me what type of handgun he should carry. Now, he fashions himself as the super expert trainer. This email he put out is a disgrace and exposes him for what he is.
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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Angry It's all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!

    I too received his email today. It is all about the money.

    When I had his class a few years back he voiced his concern that Utah may stop allowing out of state people to get Utah concealed carry licenses. IE....he and his wife would not be making money from Utah CCW classes.

    Ahem...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ That's what shes all about!

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    Here are my questions to him

    Mike, you said to ask questions so here I am.

    If what you say is true, that mandated training is a necessity, why then are more states pushing for Constitutional Carry?

    Why have we not seen problems with Constitutional Carry in Vermont, Alaska and Arizona?

    Why have we not seen a ton of problems with all those who openly carry in Wisconsin?

    Surely, by now there should be some evidence to prove that mandated training is necessary, so is there some evidence to support your claims that I don't know about?

    Since I have taken all of your handgun classes, how can you possibly say that a person could be proficient after only an initial class to satisfy a permit requirement?

    And finally, if safety and training were the most paramount issues at hand, why would you charge $200 or more for a class when you should really be conducting the classes for free because all you really want is safe and free society?

    there may be more questions later

    thanks ahead for your replies,

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Phred, me thinks that bender preys on people who don't know there are better instructors out there that are actually concerned with the well being of their students.

    Also, as far as the free training, didn't you and I have a long talk about that at the gun show in Rib Mountain when we first met???
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    Phred, me thinks that bender preys on people who don't know there are better instructors out there that are actually concerned with the well being of their students.

    Also, as far as the free training, didn't you and I have a long talk about that at the gun show in Rib Mountain when we first met???
    It was at Cedar Creek in Rothschild (in the shadow of Rib Mountain). We talked about so many things that day. I know you mentioned that you offer your entry level course (Open Carry) for free just because you think safety is paramount.

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    I got this email as well today... I'm not surprised by this email at all, this is how he has responded every time I talked to him...

    I have gone through all of this handgun classes, I got a package deal for $350 for all 5 classes. Course 1 was the Utah CCW Permit class and didn't really teach any firearm techniques, it was more informative on laws and situations you could be put in... that being said it was worth it for what I paid. There was live fire, but only to show that you could shoot down range and that you had some resemblance of firearm safety. Courses 2-5 were more techniques and live firearm that thoughts me things I didn't know, I continue to practice the techniques which help me.

    I haven't taken any other classes besides hunter safety which was about 15 prior, so I can't compare, but I did learn from the courses even if I don't agree with his thoughts on my right to carry...

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    Using Bender's words:
    There’s not a week that goes by that I don’t receive a couple of gripes about why I’m conspicuously absent when it comes to promoting permit-less carry
    It seems as if several of us have taken at least one of his classes. We should all contact him and let him know our feelings. Then maybe he will have to answer to some other gripes.

    Of course, he could just be making up the "gripes" story. I knew a principal once that turned one phone call into "several" and then "dozens" and then it was "everybody". His main hobby was fishing so right away you know he had a lot of practice exaggerating things.

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    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Learning how to shoot is good, but at the same time, I have taken some of his students and taught them how to out shoot him. In fact, several of the people that he had trained through Badgerland Security in Milwaukee were able to qualify through him to be licensed armed security in Wisconsin. However, when I got them out on the range I had to teach them basic safety.

    The laws can be read and understood without going through a "Class". The shooting can be taught and perfected through a book and practice. Self defense can not be learned from a book, or practiced to perfection.

    Self defense is a mental function that has to be trained into someone to the point where they overcome their typical physical mistakes and can function as a reflex instead of an intentional action. This can be done in a matter of hours, and then it is up to the individual to practice religiously until they have trained themselves to act without thinking.

    This takes thousands of rounds, and thousands of draws, and thousands of dry fire drills. There is no shortcut as some *Coughbender* would suggest.
    Last edited by CalicoJack10; 03-16-2011 at 11:49 PM.
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    Regular Member 1FASTC4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phred View Post
    Mike, you said to ask questions so here I am.

    If what you say is true, that mandated training is a necessity, why then are more states pushing for Constitutional Carry?

    Why have we not seen problems with Constitutional Carry in Vermont, Alaska and Arizona?

    Why have we not seen a ton of problems with all those who openly carry in Wisconsin?

    Surely, by now there should be some evidence to prove that mandated training is necessary, so is there some evidence to support your claims that I don't know about?





    there may be more questions later

    thanks ahead for your replies,
    Dear Mr. Bender, what Phred said.

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    There is much truth in what Bender has said. It is very disturbing to me to see Jesus in the situation he is in. I have met many great people via the open carry movement and I would hate like hell to see anyone of them in a similar situation. The old saying, "I'd rather be tried by 12, then be carried by 6.", should be amended to read, "I don't want to be carried by 6, nor be tried by 12.". It is not as rare as many think for someone involved in a defensive shooting to be sitting in prison convicted of manslaughter, reckless homicide, negligent use of a weapon etc. Then, they most likely faced a civil suit that put the icing on the cake by destroying any wealth they had left over from the initial criminal trial. From the instant you shoot another human being, you are guilty until proven innocent.

    From the type of gun and ammo you carry to the statements you make and actions you take can lead you straight into a jail cell. Everyone needs to know exactly when a shooting is justifiable, what to do immediately after a shooting, how to treat witnesses, how not to get shot by first responding LEO's, what you should tell the first responders and when to remain silent, how to testify should you be charged and brought to trial etc etc.

    I do not want to see such training be mandated but the gun carrying community should pressure its own to get the training. I do not want to see anyone mistakenly shot nor do I want to see anyone being charged for an unjustifiable shooting because of ignorance.

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    I consider 'training' for law abiding citizens when the require 'training' for criminals....theyd be exempt from any training requirements i assume?

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    Regular Member XDFDE45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalicoJack10 View Post
    Second of all, it really PI$$E$ me off that he talks like he knows anything about first hand self defense. He admitted to me personally the one time that I met him that he knows nothing about what I have been through when discussing personal defense with a firearm. He clearly stated to me that he has never had to defend himself with a firearm, and if a "Certified Trainer/Instructor" has never been in that position it is impossible to even understand the true effects that it will have on his "Clients".
    Like the saying goes "Those that can't do, teach."
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    Don't wish ill upon your enemy......plan it.

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    Regular Member IcrewUH60's Avatar
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    I'm offering classes on how to exersise your right to Free Speech. The class is one hour long and I can handle groups of up to 10 people. I go over the basic rights of Freedom of Speech found in Article I Sec. 3 of the Wisconsin Constitution. I also talk in depth about the freedom of speech found in the US Constitution. You will learn everything from the dangers of libel to talking to your neighbors about Govenor Walker and expressing your own opinions.

    At the end of the course, there is a live "hands-on" training activity where you will demonstrate the ability to craft your own letter to your state legislators expressing your personal views on Constitutional Carry. I will provide the pens, paper, envelopes and stamps. You just need to bring your opinion.

    The class is $300 per student (discounts for WCI Members) So, Who's in?

    My wife teaches Freedom of Religion classes if anyone is interested. Those are only $215.00 per student.
    "In a court trial half the lawyers are wrong." - Captain Nemo

    "[There is] a duty in refusing to cooperate in any undertaking that violates the Constitutional rights of the individual. This holds in particular for all inquisitions that are concerned with the private life and the political affiliations of the citizens." - Albert Einstein

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  22. #22
    Regular Member CalicoJack10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcrewUH60 View Post
    I'm offering classes on how to exercise your right to Free Speech. The class is one hour long and I can handle groups of up to 10 people. I go over the basic rights of Freedom of Speech found in Article I Sec. 3 of the Wisconsin Constitution. I also talk in depth about the freedom of speech found in the US Constitution. You will learn everything from the dangers of libel to talking to your neighbors about Governor Walker and expressing your own opinions.

    At the end of the course, there is a live "hands-on" training activity where you will demonstrate the ability to craft your own letter to your state legislators expressing your personal views on Constitutional Carry. I will provide the pens, paper, envelopes and stamps. You just need to bring your opinion.

    The class is $300 per student (discounts for WCI Members) So, Who's in?

    My wife teaches Freedom of Religion classes if anyone is interested. Those are only $215.00 per student.
    If you would like I am willing to join you two and create a course on remaining silent. I will create a 4 hour course that will cover what remaining silent is, and we will have 3 hours of practical exercises. But due to the in depth nature of this course I will be charging $400.00.

    Quote Originally Posted by XDFDE45 View Post
    Like the saying goes "Those that can't do, teach."
    Ironic, isn't that a variant of a quote from "Maxims for Revolutionists"? Would that really apply to bender? lmao

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    Calico Jack Defense

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    If training becomes required, then all law enforcement firearm ranges should be required to be open to the public at no fee.
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran GLOCK21GB's Avatar
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    This Bender guy & other trainers that preach Mandatory training like him are saying what our legislators want to hear & they will go along with with the training culture because to these elected reps it sound like an educated 7 responsible course of action. The Elected reps don't care & can't see allowing Wisconsin residents the ability to defend themselves with a concealed weapon , although as we all know we can currently do the same thing right now with open carry...Please tell me what the difference is between Open Carry & Concealed carry ??? correct their is no real difference & the only variation is you can't see it being carried.

    Now, I did take a concealed carry class, it was very informative & instructed the students, on legalities, safety,ethics, etc. I would recommend everyone take a class lot's of very good information to learn BUT that should be up to the individual to make that decision.

    A permit equals permission...Permission to protect ourselves ??? Makes no freeeking sense !!! until the Criminals that carry concealed get training, their should be NO mandated training for the law abiding.
    Last edited by GLOCK21GB; 03-17-2011 at 10:39 AM.
    http://youtu.be/xWgVGu3OR4U AACFI, Wisconsin / Minnesota Carry Certified. Action Pistol & Advanced Action pistol concepts + Urban Carbine course. When the entitlement Zombies begin looting, pillaging, raping, burning & killing..remember HEAD SHOTS it's the only way to kill a Zombie. Stockpile food & water now.

    Please support your local,county, state & Federal Law enforcement agencies, right ???

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    The legislators will be always looking for cover in case something goes wrong. We have to continue to educate them on the experiences of other states. On the subject on Constitutional Carry like Arizonia has, the Giffords tragedy will be brought up. It has to be pointed out that it if it was not for the failure of law enforcement and the mental heath system it may have been prevented. Primarly the failure of the scumbag of a sheriff that tried to divert attention away from himself.
    Last edited by Flipper; 03-17-2011 at 11:35 AM.
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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