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Thread: Illinois is planning to Violate the rights of the Amish

  1. #1
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Illinois is planning to Violate the rights of the Amish

    The state of Illinois has decided that the Amish need to violate religious tenet in order to bear arms:
    http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local...117898199.html
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Illinois is one state I could never live in. Firearm owners are 2nd class citizens.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  4. #4
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    IL has been violating rights for years. Nothing new here.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    I wonder if the state would allow them to cover their faces? Like with a burkha.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    I wonder if the state would allow them to cover their faces? Like with a burkha.

    Bronson
    You beat me to it. I was going to say that they actually changed their stance because of the possibility of extremist Muslim terrorist women refusing to remove their burqas. I doubt a terrorist would bother with the FOID though.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    disgusting
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Regular Member WilDChilD's Avatar
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    I wonder, what are the gun crime stats for the amish. Think there is a wave of ride by shootings?

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    I wonder, what are the gun crime stats for the amish. Think there is a wave of ride by shootings?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilDChilD View Post
    I wonder, what are the gun crime stats for the amish. Think there is a wave of ride by shootings?
    clip, clop, clip, clop, clip, clop BANG clip, clop, clip, clop, clip, clop
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    Regular Member Onnie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    clip, clop, clip, clop, clip, clop BANG clip, clop, clip, clop, clip, clop
    too funny
    When Guns are OUTLAWED, Ill be an OUTLAW
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  12. #12
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    The obvious hole in the new FOID-photo policy is that a no-photo FOID for the Amish has worked just fine for years.

    There is no legitimate justification for requiring a photo of the Amish. Neither for anyone else, but we're just talking about Amish, here.

  13. #13
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Matthew 22:21, 'Render unto Ceasar....'

    I know of no clear biblical prohibition against a photograph for the purposes of identification. Does anyone know what the basis for their objection is, or is it just 'the tradition of the elders'?

    Exodus 20:4-5 deals with idols, clearly delineating them by referring to the worship of idols, differentiating them from other forms of art or representation of the human image.

    Deuteronomy 5:8-9 echos that sentiment.

    That aside, I've had my photo taken many times, and I'm pretty sure my name is in the Lamb's book. Is this really unreasonable?
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  14. #14
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Matthew 22:21, 'Render unto Ceasar....'

    I know of no clear biblical prohibition against a photograph for the purposes of identification. Does anyone know what the basis for their objection is, or is it just 'the tradition of the elders'?

    Exodus 20:4-5 deals with idols, clearly delineating them by referring to the worship of idols, differentiating them from other forms of art or representation of the human image.

    Deuteronomy 5:8-9 echos that sentiment.

    That aside, I've had my photo taken many times, and I'm pretty sure my name is in the Lamb's book. Is this really unreasonable?
    IMHO, it has more to do with a 'photo' being a sense of a display of pride, however they do at times use photos. My limited understanding is that different groups have different dictates and interpretations.
    See http://www.amishnews.com/amisharticl...d%20photos.htm
    I think, though, that a sincerely held religious belief should take precedence over a governmental requirement that really serves no purpose. Since they have been exempt, and are also exempt from some federal photo requirements, the State of Illinois should, IMHO, just drop the issue. Does the governmental need for the photo trump religious expression? In this case, I don't believe it does.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  15. #15
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    IMHO, it has more to do with a 'photo' being a sense of a display of pride, however they do at times use photos. My limited understanding is that different groups have different dictates and interpretations.
    See http://www.amishnews.com/amisharticl...d%20photos.htm
    I think, though, that a sincerely held religious belief should take precedence over a governmental requirement that really serves no purpose. Since they have been exempt, and are also exempt from some federal photo requirements, the State of Illinois should, IMHO, just drop the issue. Does the governmental need for the photo trump religious expression? In this case, I don't believe it does.
    Interesting read. Although I do personally chafe at some of the requirements imposed by our servants, methinks there must be some balance; otherwise, at which point does someone's personal beliefs take on the mantle of 'religion'?

    Does one person's deeply held belief qualify? What if two hold the same? Is it then now a religion, or does it remain a personal preference? How many does it take, and who decides that number, before it becomes a 'religious' tenant? How many people followed Koresh? Apparently they had some deep seated beliefs regarding religion and automatic weapons. I know that's a bit extreme, but I'm offering a point.

    Remembering that Abram held an unpopular, monotheistic view, he was one man. From one came three great religions; Judaism, Christianity and Islam. So, the deeply held beliefs of one are obviously significant.

    How do we sort out the Koreshes and the like, from 'legitimate' religions? Again, who decides?

    Alas, but I am not Solomon; I cannot say. But, I ponder these mysteries.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  16. #16
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    This is more of a common problem than many realize, as they for religious reasons refuse to have photo ID, they cannot purchase any gun for any FFL in MI either. At one time MI would allow them an ID card that in place of a photo had the words "photo not required" but we no longer do that and simply attempting to cash a check can be a ordeal for them.

  17. #17
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    Imo, any .gov-mandated ID is unreasonable. Licenses to drive/own firearms, etc., doubly-so.

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