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Thread: "I could be shot" for having an empty holster.

  1. #1
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    "I could be shot" for having an empty holster.

    Let me preface this by stating that we was originally going to OC in the courthouse to pay my ticket. Looking at the law we was unable to find anything stating that this was not allowed.

    Long story short, I decided that I did not want to do it, and we left our firearms in the vehicle. Once entering the courthouse, we were immediately told that we had to bring The holsters back to our car. I politely ask where this is posted, and immediately all 4-6 officers start yelling at us that we have to go or we will be 'removed'. I politely ask if we are breaking any laws and they tell us that it is for our safety because 'I could be shot' if I don't remove the holster. I repeatedly attempt to ask if this is policy and where this is posted, and several officers walk through the metal detectors and surround me, shouting at me that 'I must leave, NOW' which as you can guess, is extremely intimidating.

    At this point, they tell us that we must come back tomorrow when the supervisor is here, and tell us we cannot come back in today. I inform them that I must pay my ticket today and they tell me that I should have paid it earlier, and I am out of luck. As I am afraid of the stereotypical 'trigger happy' Vegas police officer I have heard so much about, we start exiting the building. As we are leaving I ask If his supervisor will be able to tell me what their policy is, and they shut the door on me without responding.
    Last edited by KarateKyle; 03-16-2011 at 08:18 PM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    I would have let them arrest me. That would have brought the **** storm down on them.

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    I plan on going back tomorrow to pay my ticket so there is no late fees, and I do NOT plan on removing the holster. The difference is, tomorrow I will have the camera rolling the whole time and not just for the last 60 seconds of the encounter.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Posts with only general, vague and non-specific details are not going to gain much attention. Too many such dramatically described incidents have graced these pages before.

    First if you intend to pursue this formally, cease the public discussion and seelk legal council.

    If on the other hand you only want informal replies from laymen, then you need to clarify a lot.

    Pertinent information must be detailed accurately:

    Exactly where this is alleged to have occurred.

    Date and time of incident.

    Officers names and what agency.

    A short consolidation of what happened w/o histrionics.

    Goal is that someone be able to FOIA the appropriate agency for the records of what happened.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 03-16-2011 at 09:37 PM. Reason: fixed
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I hope you have at least an audio recording of this incident if you truly were under a deadline of paying your fine today... to PLAY FOR THE JUDGE!

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    Yes I do have audio and video from the last minute or two of the encounter. I wasn't recording going in because I wasn't expecting... Anything really. Would a FOIA request help do anything? I would think this would only help if they did have some kind of documentation of it, but from my impression I would guess that they would have just laughed it off once I left the building. I wasn't planning on doing anything formally because IA seems to just shrug off any requests that make their department look bad.

    Not sure exactly what details you want that I didn't provide... When I asked for officer A. Smith's badge number he said his 'P number' was 252... I will upload the video for those interested once I get it off my phone...

    Grapeshot: Sorry I didn't meet your standards, I was merely trying to relay an experience I had today that I had assumed those on this board may find interesting.

  7. #7
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarateKyle View Post
    Yes I do have audio and video from the last minute or two of the encounter. I wasn't recording going in because I wasn't expecting... Anything really. Would a FOIA request help do anything? I would think this would only help if they did have some kind of documentation of it, but from my impression I would guess that they would have just laughed it off once I left the building. I wasn't planning on doing anything formally because IA seems to just shrug off any requests that make their department look bad.

    Not sure exactly what details you want that I didn't provide... When I asked for officer A. Smith's badge number he said his 'P number' was 252... I will upload the video for those interested once I get it off my phone...

    Grapeshot: Sorry I didn't meet your standards, I was merely trying to relay an experience I had today that I had assumed those on this board may find interesting.
    It is not a question of my standards nor of your veracity. We have seen many dramatic stories before, never substantiated. With most of us, we are not here for simple amusement, but to learn and help one another.

    Will look forward to any audio and video files you may have.

    FOIA requests are frequently "golden", even when they say they have nothing because nothing happened. Then you can spring your evidence on them.

    Never underestimate the value of FOIA requests - they are like fishing in a stocked pond full of hungry catfish - you will catch something.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Taken down temporarily.

    Here it is. Any advice for how to handle this situation tomorrow when I go back would be appreciated.
    Last edited by KarateKyle; 03-16-2011 at 11:17 PM. Reason: I fail, no video.

  9. #9
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Shame that the video is so short - lacking both the beginning of the event and the ending.

    IMO - I would go in tomorrow sans any gear and pay the ticket and then pursue the available options on the other issue after resolving that problem. I also would have a digital recording running long before I went inside - then go straight about my business.

    If I had any difficulty i.e. late payment or penalty, I would use the video as the reason for being disallowed admittance previously.

    If recognized and detained by the original officer, I would object for the record to each an every one of his demands and state that I was not consenting but would not resist - no voluntary compliance. Get it all on tape, but do not try to win the battle in the lobby.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    That actually was the ending. He closed the door on me when I asked if his sup would be able to tell me what was not allowed. Also sorry for the crotch shots, I was trying to put my belt back on after I had slid the belt backwards out of the loops.

    And yes, I plan on charging my phone all night and recording the entirety tomorrow.

    EDIT: There won't be any difficulty as far as late payment, I called the traffic citation number, and they told me I had until the end of the week.
    Last edited by KarateKyle; 03-16-2011 at 10:57 PM.

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarateKyle View Post
    That actually was the ending. He closed the door on me when I asked if his sup would be able to tell me what was not allowed. Also sorry for the crotch shots, I was trying to put my belt back on after I had slid the belt backwards out of the loops.

    And yes, I plan on charging my phone all night and recording the entirety tomorrow.

    EDIT: There won't be any difficulty as far as late payment, I called the traffic citation number, and they told me I had until the end of the week.
    Bottom line - it appears that you were thrown out of a public building for not breaking the law.

    I'm not so sure that I wouldn't have insisted that I be permitted to go pay my fine now - politely refused to leave. The ante would have gone up considerably had he actually touched me beyond the limits of the law.

    The officer seems to have been talking out of the color-of-law side of his mouth - on the other hand I am not well schooled in the specifics of Nevada law.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    A few frames after this your information is much more legible. If you don't want to be doxed I would black those frames out while leaving the audio. I would have just given you the time stamp but I don't see it.
    Last edited by sharkey; 03-16-2011 at 11:38 PM. Reason: remove link per OP's request

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Bottom line - it appears that you were thrown out of a public building for not breaking the law.

    I'm not so sure that I wouldn't have insisted that I be permitted to go pay my fine now - politely refused to leave. The ante would have gone up considerably had he actually touched me beyond the limits of the law.

    The officer seems to have been talking out of the color-of-law side of his mouth - on the other hand I am not well schooled in the specifics of Nevada law.
    The reason I did what they 'asked' was because before I started the video, and to a point after, they were acting extremely aggressive towards me, and I would rather 'live to fight another day' so to speak. I was basically cornered between the table and metal detector :/


    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    A few frames after this your information is much more legible. If you don't want to be doxed I would black those frames out while leaving the audio. I would have just given you the time stamp but I don't see it.

    Yikes, thanks. I cannot delete the video, could you remove it from your quote until I can edit this?

  14. #14
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Maybe the implication was that an empty holster meant there was a drawn gun somewhere? However, I can't see this as being unlawful, nor can I imagine a law talking about 'dangerous empty holsters'.

  15. #15
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KarateKyle View Post

    Yikes, thanks. I cannot delete the video, could you remove it from your quote until I can edit this?
    Done, I'll remove the image too if you wish but it's illegible.

    Edit: Either I already removed it or it was done for me
    Last edited by sharkey; 03-16-2011 at 11:54 PM.

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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    It was removed for me. It's no longer in my attachments.

    Wow Admins, you're fast. Thanks.

  17. #17
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    should of let em tackle you man!!! stand up for your rights. NEVER back down when you KNOW you are right. this is only gonna be harder next time cuz they know intimidation worked..

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    Quote Originally Posted by KarateKyle View Post
    Let me preface this by stating that we was originally going to OC in the courthouse to pay my ticket. Looking at the law we was unable to find anything stating that this was not allowed.

    Long story short, I decided that I did not want to do it, and we left our firearms in the vehicle. Once entering the courthouse, we were immediately told that we had to bring The holsters back to our car. I politely ask where this is posted, and immediately all 4-6 officers start yelling at us that we have to go or we will be 'removed'. I politely ask if we are breaking any laws and they tell us that it is for our safety because 'I could be shot' if I don't remove the holster. I repeatedly attempt to ask if this is policy and where this is posted, and several officers walk through the metal detectors and surround me, shouting at me that 'I must leave, NOW' which as you can guess, is extremely intimidating.

    At this point, they tell us that we must come back tomorrow when the supervisor is here, and tell us we cannot come back in today. I inform them that I must pay my ticket today and they tell me that I should have paid it earlier, and I am out of luck. As I am afraid of the stereotypical 'trigger happy' Vegas police officer I have heard so much about, we start exiting the building. As we are leaving I ask If his supervisor will be able to tell me what their policy is, and they shut the door on me without responding.
    Technically speaking it might be legal to bring a gun or a holster into the court house, but if you received a ticket and plan on paying it you are planning to admit guilt to a crime, most likely a misdemeanor. The penalty for a misdemeanor in Nevada is up to $1000 in fines and six months in jail. I'm no lawyer and I don't know much about how the courts work, but from my impression it seems to me that you could pay your fine, $200 or whatever, and the judge could decide that was your guilty plea and that he wants to give you a larger fine and a jail sentence for "disrespecting" the court. I'd ask a lawyer. I could, and probably am way off here, but the risk in my mind is considerable.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 03-17-2011 at 02:14 AM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felid`Maximus View Post
    Technically speaking it might be legal to bring a gun or a holster into the court house, but if you received a ticket and plan on paying it you are planning to admit guilt to a crime, most likely a misdemeanor. The penalty for a misdemeanor in Nevada is up to $1000 in fines and six months in jail. I'm no lawyer and I don't know much about how the courts work, but from my impression it seems to me that you could pay your fine, $200 or whatever, and the judge could decide that was your guilty plea and that he wants to give you a larger fine and a jail sentence for "disrespecting" the court. I'd ask a lawyer. I could, and probably am way off here, but the risk in my mind is considerable.
    Perhaps it's a civil traffic ticket and not a criminal misdemeanor?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    Perhaps it's a civil traffic ticket and not a criminal misdemeanor?
    This is correct. It is simply a traffic ticket that I must get the insurance portion waived by bringing in my insurance ID card.

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    Up here there aren't many offenses punishable by a civil penalty rather than as a misdemeanor, especially when it comes to driving.

    If it is just a proof of insurance issue, and you can prove you had valid insurance at the time of being accused of the misdemeanor state offense of not having valid insurance while driving, the court is obligated to find you not guilty, however. If you were found guilty, it looks like the statute specifically mentions the penalty (which rules out jail time) as being a maximum fine of $1000 and revoking of the driver's license.

    http://www.leg.state.nv.us/nrs/NRS-4...l#NRS485Sec187
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 03-17-2011 at 01:09 PM.

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    Funny how different counties react differently. I've had to pay a speeding ticket at the Churchill County Courthouse and because I was CC'ing at the time I left my firearm in my truck, I walked into the courthouse with an empty holster and an extra magazine in its holder. I removed them before going through the metal detector the deputy onduty asked where my firearm was, I replied in my vehicle and if I needed to return these to my vehicle, he replied "why? it's not a weapon" I paid my ticket and left and he said have a nice day.

    Another time when going to Washoe county court with my now wife, (she was filing a TPO against her ex-boyfriend) they had lockers available where I was allowed to store my firearm up until our business was conclued, the presiding judge was Chuck Weller and it was after someone took a potshot at him. At no time was there any hysterics by the sheriff deputies who were present

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    NRS 207.190 Coercion.

    1. It is unlawful for a person, with the intent to compel another to do or abstain from doing an act which the other person has a right to do or abstain from doing, to:

    (a) Use violence or inflict injury upon the other person or any of the other person’s family, or upon the other person’s property, or threaten such violence or injury;

    (b) Deprive the person of any tool, implement or clothing, or hinder the person in the use thereof; or

    (c) Attempt to intimidate the person by threats or force.

    2. A person who violates the provisions of subsection 1 shall be punished:

    (a) Where physical force or the immediate threat of physical force is used, for a category B felony by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, and may be further punished by a fine of not more than $5,000.

    (b) Where no physical force or immediate threat of physical force is used, for a misdemeanor.

    [1911 C&P § 475; RL § 6740; NCL § 10424]—(NRS A 1967, 522; 1979, 1455; 1995, 1239)



    NRS 197.200 Oppression under color of office.

    1. An officer, or a person pretending to be an officer, who unlawfully and maliciously, under pretense or color of official authority:

    (a) Arrests or detains a person against the person’s will;

    (b) Seizes or levies upon another’s property;

    (c) Dispossesses another of any lands or tenements; or

    (d) Does any act whereby the person, property or rights of another person are injured,

    Ê commits oppression.

    2. An officer or person committing oppression shall be punished:

    (a) Where physical force or the immediate threat of physical force is used, for a category D felony as provided in NRS 193.130.

    (b) Where no physical force or immediate threat of physical force is used, for a gross misdemeanor.

    [1911 C&P § 541; RL § 6806; NCL § 10487]—(NRS A 1967, 462; 1995, 1172)

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    The problem is, the police and the prosecutor are on the same side. Police can pretty much point guns at us and push us around when they feel like it.

    And probably if you resist their efforts to twist your arm behind your back they'll arrest you for "assaulting an officer." And who is the judge/jury going to trust? The guy who is probably perceived as some fringe lunatic or the half dozen officers who will testify against you?
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 03-18-2011 at 05:03 PM.

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    Well the good news is that the followup was fairly uneventful. My guess is "sgt. Moody" told them that their behavior was a no-no. Went in yesterday wearing the holster, and they asked me where my gun was and then informed me that we missed traffic division by a few minutes. Went in today, and they didn't say anything, but made me lift up my shirt and spin in circles... Which makes no sense since I had just gone through the metal detector. Either way, I'm safe and sound, and hopefully they are a bit more 'educated' on the issue.

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