Thread: sb 234 question plz
okay- so i would like to know-
1. are leo's going to be allowed to disarm us while they do a identity check?
2. are we required to show id upon leo's asking us for it?
doubt is a distraction from reality. fear is acknowledging doubt as reality.
it's time to tap in to a higher reality; the one you were made for.
God Bless America.
Terry v Ohio
State v Jones
Florida v JL
There is a thread in the Florida section "concealed part not edited" the bill says that you must show a license when asked by "law enforcement" if you are concealing. However, the language could be interpreted wrongly the way it is in Section 12. The language and case precedent aside, LEO's will simply claim you alarmed someone and then ask to see the license regardless if you scared a sheep or not. Just like they can claim they smell the odor of marijuana and break into peoples' vehicles.
The law says
The key here is "DEMAND". For an officer to be able to "demand" he must first have RAS or PC to believe that a crime has been or is about to be committed. The law does not say you must display "at the request of" or "if an officer asks", it says "demand" which denotes a detention of the individual and therefore requires RAS or PC.must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.
You omitted part of that law which stated CONCEALED.
I wrote a thread specifically about this. Since the Case Law which determined that merely having a gun is not PC or RAS of anything at all is actually a Florida case, this is a matter of VERY settled law. HB517/SB234 are written to comply with this; ID on demand is required only of CCers.
It is no different than pulling people over just to see if they have a Drivers' License and 'check to see if you're legal to drive.' They an only get away with that if you let them. It is WAY out of line.
If one wishes to split hairs and take the law out of context, it might be construed otherwise. But, I doubt very strongly that such charges would hold under that deception. Maybe in Miami-Dade, or Hillsboro/Pinellas. But I doubt anywhere else would try such a dirty trick.
From my experience during a traffic stop, I was hesitant to even utter the words "I don't consent" while the officer nervously demanded I not move and removed my pistol. I was under the impression that saying anything would cause him to mistake me for being violent. Going about respectfully declining (while not resisting of course) is an interesting topic!
I imagine if an officer felt he didn't need to ask for your permission, you probably shouldn't interrupt the process.
I use the line "I will not resist your illegal searches and/or seizures, but I certainly do not consent." They usually try to re-iterate with different phrasing that is more aggressive, and I simply refuse to repeat myself. They try to get you to change your words to theirs, and choose words that would imply imminent violence. It is drilled-in FDLE training, I'm not sure they even realize they're doing it much of the time. Always rephrase in a problematic way, and try to get the perp to agree with your wording. Those are the only words that will then show up in the report. Don't EVER agree to their rephrasing. "Sir, that is not what I said." Expect to have a hard time with the ones who pull this, they really don't like it when you are clearly hip to their mind game and too sharp to fall for it.
"I'm trying to respect you, I ask that you respect me." Is a line I also use to make it clear I'm not just being a hardass that wants to mess with them. I really don't want to mess with them. But so few are willing to act civilized and respect me, that I end up having to go hardass anyway.
The first few times it can be scary. But you get used to it. My pulse still races, but I can hold my line and not waver or let it show now. I know only too well that they can still arrest me for no damn reason at all, make up false charges, fix it in the report, etc. Being Right and having Rights doesn't actually protect you from the damage they can do by abusing their position. I try to show them the same basic respect I would show for any other human being and simply state that I expect the same. They refuse, I whip out the 'Why am I being detained? I have nothing further to say." Conversation over.
The real assh0les get the "You've made it very clear that I am not free to go, I have nothing to say to you."
Let me be less subtle: DO NOT ASK IF YOU ARE FREE TO GO. Does a rape victim ask if they are being raped? What answer do you think you're going to get, if you get one at all? Make a STATEMENT that you ALREADY FEEL THAT YOU ARE NOT FREE TO GO. He will then have to acknowledge detainment, or deny that was his intent to detain you. If you ASK, you'll get no answer, no straight answer, lies, etc... YOU are the one who decides if you are being detained or not. If you are not free to go, YOU ARE BEING DETAINED. Don't ask. It's stupid and you'll just go in circles. Ask WHY you are being detained, or state that you know you are being detained. There is no QUESTION of the detainment, don't make it into a questionable thing and ruin your own position. If the civility has already degraded to the point where you've reached this impasse, manners and respect are already out the window and the Cop is the one who disposed of them by pushing you to assert your Rights instead of Respecting them like he should have.
Last edited by ixtow; 03-17-2011 at 01:49 PM.
Too bad we can't record the LEO's during the stop in Florida. Gonna be a lot of creative writing by some of them I'm sure.
Because in Florida the right to keep and bear arms is not a right (it is a privilage), I will probably comply with an officers request. Because being right doesn't mean they're not going to take my license to carry. I will inform the officer that what he is doing is against the 4th Amendment to the constitution he took an oath to protect, but I'll leave it at that.
Now if this were another state where the right to keep and bear arms is a right and not a privilage, I'd put up hell (non-violently). (but then again, I wouldn't have a CWL for them to request in the first place )
Is it worth losing your CWL? Yes, you will be right, but by getting a CWL in the first place you have acknowledged that you are gaining permission from the government to carry, not practicing your right. So you might as well just give it to them. (while politely informing them that they are a terrible american and a disgrace to the oath they took)
Lose your CWP for refusing consent? Even in Florida, that's a real stretch.... Coming from me, that says something.
Seriously, I've had Cops SHOOT AT ME and I won't bend over that easily! I let my CWP expire, it was never taken from me.
Don't confuse the Courts with the Cops. the Cops don't issue the permits here. They have no say. all they can do is arrest you on false charges and then get sued into oblivion for that 4th Amendment violation. If you consent, then they get away with it all and there is not a damn thing you can ever do about it.
also this is how you should handle the stop of LEO'S
Last edited by Rick H; 03-17-2011 at 02:48 PM. Reason: added another good one
God Bless America.
Just go about your normal day, and if you get harrassed for that then throw a fit.
a similar post on the youtube comments
This video is probably being circulated through every police department as a training aid for the officers. Legislatures would probably look at this video, and possibly start changing cc laws, or they may decide to add more to it because of this particulare situation. Everybody is allowed to assert their rights, but showing up to that traffic stop like that is not the best way to do it....
Last edited by Schlitz; 03-17-2011 at 03:11 PM.
I've seen nothing in Florida Statutes that would override the SCOTUS test regarding "Reasonable Expectation of Privacy."
I believe the Majority opinion also mentioned that a Cop in the commission of his/her official duties, never has a Reasonable Expectation of Privacy due to the public nature of the job. If you are dealing with the PUBLIC, your words and actions cannot possibly be expect PRIVACY.
Someone cite where I'm wrong if you can.
Citing the absence of something is difficult. But if I'm wrong, and I HATE being wrong, I'd like to know.
Please Cite where Florida has 2 Party Consent. If it cannot be found, it isn't true.
Last edited by ixtow; 03-17-2011 at 04:59 PM.
A quick google found this:
So how is it illegal if the charges were dropped and the swi... er, "Officers" are in hot water?
Grab the cameras, destroy the evidence, fix it in the report. SOP.
Last edited by ixtow; 03-17-2011 at 04:58 PM.
Montana New Hampshire
Note: Companies are the exception. If they announce the call may be recorded and you continue, it is implied consent.
And I believe you can find the answers on this hyper link below.
Last edited by Rick H; 03-17-2011 at 04:59 PM.
God Bless America.