Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 86

Thread: sb 234 question plz

  1. #1
    Regular Member hammer6's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,169

    sb 234 question plz

    okay- so i would like to know-

    1. are leo's going to be allowed to disarm us while they do a identity check?
    2. are we required to show id upon leo's asking us for it?
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    doubt is a distraction from reality. fear is acknowledging doubt as reality.

    it's time to tap in to a higher reality; the one you were made for.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Rick H's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Hoover, Alabama
    Posts
    323

    Not legally

    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    okay- so i would like to know-

    1. are leo's going to be allowed to disarm us while they do a identity check?
    2. are we required to show id upon leo's asking us for it?
    Under The United States Constitution They must have probable cause and proof that you are Not legal to posse firearms or are committing a crime and and if they don't you can deny them by words only. but if they still search you DO NOT FIGHT THEM, Make sure you get their name and badge # and get any and all witnesses names and phone number so you can sue them in court later for illegal search and seizure. but remember DO NOT RESIST THEM.......... The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is the part of the Bill of Rights which guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, along with requiring any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause. which means the mere presence of a legal firearm on your waist does not warrant for probable cause.
    God Bless America.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    1,276
    Terry v Ohio
    State v Jones
    Florida v JL

  4. #4
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Marion County, FL
    Posts
    3,005
    There is a thread in the Florida section "concealed part not edited" the bill says that you must show a license when asked by "law enforcement" if you are concealing. However, the language could be interpreted wrongly the way it is in Section 12. The language and case precedent aside, LEO's will simply claim you alarmed someone and then ask to see the license regardless if you scared a sheep or not. Just like they can claim they smell the odor of marijuana and break into peoples' vehicles.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    1,276
    The law says

    must display both the license and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.
    The key here is "DEMAND". For an officer to be able to "demand" he must first have RAS or PC to believe that a crime has been or is about to be committed. The law does not say you must display "at the request of" or "if an officer asks", it says "demand" which denotes a detention of the individual and therefore requires RAS or PC.

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Suwannee County, FL
    Posts
    5,069
    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    1. are leo's going to be allowed to disarm us while they do a identity check?
    If you're fool enough to let them:

    a) consent to such an identity check
    b) consent to having your firearm seized

    Quote Originally Posted by hammer6 View Post
    2. are we required to show id upon leo's asking us for it?
    No.

  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Suwannee County, FL
    Posts
    5,069
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfish View Post
    The law says



    The key here is "DEMAND". For an officer to be able to "demand" he must first have RAS or PC to believe that a crime has been or is about to be committed. The law does not say you must display "at the request of" or "if an officer asks", it says "demand" which denotes a detention of the individual and therefore requires RAS or PC.
    Quote the entire section next time, this is deceptive.

    You omitted part of that law which stated CONCEALED.

    I wrote a thread specifically about this. Since the Case Law which determined that merely having a gun is not PC or RAS of anything at all is actually a Florida case, this is a matter of VERY settled law. HB517/SB234 are written to comply with this; ID on demand is required only of CCers.

    It is no different than pulling people over just to see if they have a Drivers' License and 'check to see if you're legal to drive.' They an only get away with that if you let them. It is WAY out of line.

    If one wishes to split hairs and take the law out of context, it might be construed otherwise. But, I doubt very strongly that such charges would hold under that deception. Maybe in Miami-Dade, or Hillsboro/Pinellas. But I doubt anywhere else would try such a dirty trick.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Fort Lauderdale, FL
    Posts
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    If you're fool enough to let them:

    a) consent to such an identity check
    b) consent to having your firearm seized



    No.
    Refusing consent for the removal of a firearm is a tricky subject.

    From my experience during a traffic stop, I was hesitant to even utter the words "I don't consent" while the officer nervously demanded I not move and removed my pistol. I was under the impression that saying anything would cause him to mistake me for being violent. Going about respectfully declining (while not resisting of course) is an interesting topic!

    I imagine if an officer felt he didn't need to ask for your permission, you probably shouldn't interrupt the process.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    1,276
    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    Quote the entire section next time, this is deceptive.

    You omitted part of that law which stated CONCEALED.
    Absolutely correct but I am not confident the bill as written will make it to the Governor's desk.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    1,276
    Quote Originally Posted by nigmalg View Post
    I imagine if an officer felt he didn't need to ask for your permission, you probably shouldn't interrupt the process.
    If he felt he did not need to ASK then he wouldn't. If someone "asks" me if I consent to a search or seizure, I will decline.

    Q: May I pat you down for my safety and yours.
    A: I will not resist but I do not consent to any searches or seizures of my person or property.

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Suwannee County, FL
    Posts
    5,069
    I use the line "I will not resist your illegal searches and/or seizures, but I certainly do not consent." They usually try to re-iterate with different phrasing that is more aggressive, and I simply refuse to repeat myself. They try to get you to change your words to theirs, and choose words that would imply imminent violence. It is drilled-in FDLE training, I'm not sure they even realize they're doing it much of the time. Always rephrase in a problematic way, and try to get the perp to agree with your wording. Those are the only words that will then show up in the report. Don't EVER agree to their rephrasing. "Sir, that is not what I said." Expect to have a hard time with the ones who pull this, they really don't like it when you are clearly hip to their mind game and too sharp to fall for it.

    "I'm trying to respect you, I ask that you respect me." Is a line I also use to make it clear I'm not just being a hardass that wants to mess with them. I really don't want to mess with them. But so few are willing to act civilized and respect me, that I end up having to go hardass anyway.

    The first few times it can be scary. But you get used to it. My pulse still races, but I can hold my line and not waver or let it show now. I know only too well that they can still arrest me for no damn reason at all, make up false charges, fix it in the report, etc. Being Right and having Rights doesn't actually protect you from the damage they can do by abusing their position. I try to show them the same basic respect I would show for any other human being and simply state that I expect the same. They refuse, I whip out the 'Why am I being detained? I have nothing further to say." Conversation over.

    The real assh0les get the "You've made it very clear that I am not free to go, I have nothing to say to you."

    Let me be less subtle: DO NOT ASK IF YOU ARE FREE TO GO. Does a rape victim ask if they are being raped? What answer do you think you're going to get, if you get one at all? Make a STATEMENT that you ALREADY FEEL THAT YOU ARE NOT FREE TO GO. He will then have to acknowledge detainment, or deny that was his intent to detain you. If you ASK, you'll get no answer, no straight answer, lies, etc... YOU are the one who decides if you are being detained or not. If you are not free to go, YOU ARE BEING DETAINED. Don't ask. It's stupid and you'll just go in circles. Ask WHY you are being detained, or state that you know you are being detained. There is no QUESTION of the detainment, don't make it into a questionable thing and ruin your own position. If the civility has already degraded to the point where you've reached this impasse, manners and respect are already out the window and the Cop is the one who disposed of them by pushing you to assert your Rights instead of Respecting them like he should have.
    Last edited by ixtow; 03-17-2011 at 02:49 PM.

  12. #12
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Suwannee County, FL
    Posts
    5,069
    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfish View Post
    Absolutely correct but I am not confident the bill as written will make it to the Governor's desk.
    [crosses fingers, toes, legs, arms and other unmentionable appendages]
    Last edited by ixtow; 03-17-2011 at 02:52 PM.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Mas49.56's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Florida, USA
    Posts
    309
    Too bad we can't record the LEO's during the stop in Florida. Gonna be a lot of creative writing by some of them I'm sure.

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Suwannee County, FL
    Posts
    5,069
    Quote Originally Posted by Mas49.56 View Post
    Too bad we can't record the LEO's during the stop in Florida. Gonna be a lot of creative writing by some of them I'm sure.
    o.O - cite please.

  15. #15
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Marion County, FL
    Posts
    3,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Mas49.56 View Post
    Too bad we can't record the LEO's during the stop in Florida. Gonna be a lot of creative writing by some of them I'm sure.
    Please cite.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,567

    Lightbulb Too much to lose.

    Because in Florida the right to keep and bear arms is not a right (it is a privilage), I will probably comply with an officers request. Because being right doesn't mean they're not going to take my license to carry. I will inform the officer that what he is doing is against the 4th Amendment to the constitution he took an oath to protect, but I'll leave it at that.

    Now if this were another state where the right to keep and bear arms is a right and not a privilage, I'd put up hell (non-violently). (but then again, I wouldn't have a CWL for them to request in the first place )

    Is it worth losing your CWL? Yes, you will be right, but by getting a CWL in the first place you have acknowledged that you are gaining permission from the government to carry, not practicing your right. So you might as well just give it to them. (while politely informing them that they are a terrible american and a disgrace to the oath they took)

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Suwannee County, FL
    Posts
    5,069
    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    Because in Florida the right to keep and bear arms is not a right (it is a privilage), I will probably comply with an officers request. Because being right doesn't mean they're not going to take my license to carry. I will inform the officer that what he is doing is against the 4th Amendment to the constitution he took an oath to protect, but I'll leave it at that.

    Now if this were another state where the right to keep and bear arms is a right and not a privilage, I'd put up hell (non-violently). (but then again, I wouldn't have a CWL for them to request in the first place )

    Is it worth losing your CWL? Yes, you will be right, but by getting a CWL in the first place you have acknowledged that you are gaining permission from the government to carry, not practicing your right. So you might as well just give it to them. (while politely informing them that they are a terrible american and a disgrace to the oath they took)
    This is exactly what they're counting on.

    Lose your CWP for refusing consent? Even in Florida, that's a real stretch.... Coming from me, that says something.

    Seriously, I've had Cops SHOOT AT ME and I won't bend over that easily! I let my CWP expire, it was never taken from me.

    Don't confuse the Courts with the Cops. the Cops don't issue the permits here. They have no say. all they can do is arrest you on false charges and then get sued into oblivion for that 4th Amendment violation. If you consent, then they get away with it all and there is not a damn thing you can ever do about it.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Rick H's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Hoover, Alabama
    Posts
    323

    You Can

    Quote Originally Posted by Mas49.56 View Post
    Too bad we can't record the LEO's during the stop in Florida. Gonna be a lot of creative writing by some of them I'm sure.
    Yes you can but you must tell them that you are recording audio and video and they can NOT refuse you. really only audio but i would tell them they you have a recording device which is perfectly legal to do with notice.

    also this is how you should handle the stop of LEO'S
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ifv5q...e=more_related.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYGSv...e=more_related
    Last edited by Rick H; 03-17-2011 at 03:48 PM. Reason: added another good one
    God Bless America.

  19. #19
    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Marion County, FL
    Posts
    3,005
    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    Because in Florida the right to keep and bear arms is not a right (it is a privilage), I will probably comply with an officers request. Because being right doesn't mean they're not going to take my license to carry. I will inform the officer that what he is doing is against the 4th Amendment to the constitution he took an oath to protect, but I'll leave it at that.

    Now if this were another state where the right to keep and bear arms is a right and not a privilage, I'd put up hell (non-violently). (but then again, I wouldn't have a CWL for them to request in the first place )

    Is it worth losing your CWL? Yes, you will be right, but by getting a CWL in the first place you have acknowledged that you are gaining permission from the government to carry, not practicing your right. So you might as well just give it to them. (while politely informing them that they are a terrible american and a disgrace to the oath they took)
    They cannot take your CWFL unless you commit a disqualifying crime. Other than felonies, racking up DUI's or misdemeanor domestic violence or mental illness they can't take it.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    1,276
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick H View Post
    Yes you can but you must tell them that you are recording audio
    Cite please. I don't think FL is a 2 party state. GA for example is a one party state unless you are recording a minor in private without consent.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    1,276
    Quote Originally Posted by Rick H View Post
    Yes you can but you must tell them that you are recording audio and video and they can NOT refuse you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfish View Post
    Cite please. I don't think FL is a 2 party state. GA for example is a one party state unless you are recording a minor in private without consent.
    From just looking around it looks like FL is a 2 party state except when there is no expectation of privacy (when there is a chance the conversation could be overheard.)

    Anyone have any case law?
    Last edited by Kingfish; 03-17-2011 at 04:09 PM.

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,567
    I think running up on a police officer during his traffic stop is a big no no...doing it armed is even more of an ******* move. Not only is the cop nervous now, now he KNOWS you're armed and knows you have beef with him doing his job. I think this move makes us gun owners look like idiots and helps the lefties pass more restrictions on carry.

    Just go about your normal day, and if you get harrassed for that then throw a fit.




    a similar post on the youtube comments
    This video is probably being circulated through every police department as a training aid for the officers. Legislatures would probably look at this video, and possibly start changing cc laws, or they may decide to add more to it because of this particulare situation. Everybody is allowed to assert their rights, but showing up to that traffic stop like that is not the best way to do it....
    Last edited by Schlitz; 03-17-2011 at 04:11 PM.

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Suwannee County, FL
    Posts
    5,069
    I've seen nothing in Florida Statutes that would override the SCOTUS test regarding "Reasonable Expectation of Privacy."

    I believe the Majority opinion also mentioned that a Cop in the commission of his/her official duties, never has a Reasonable Expectation of Privacy due to the public nature of the job. If you are dealing with the PUBLIC, your words and actions cannot possibly be expect PRIVACY.

    Someone cite where I'm wrong if you can.

    Citing the absence of something is difficult. But if I'm wrong, and I HATE being wrong, I'd like to know.

    Please Cite where Florida has 2 Party Consent. If it cannot be found, it isn't true.
    Last edited by ixtow; 03-17-2011 at 05:59 PM.

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Suwannee County, FL
    Posts
    5,069
    A quick google found this:

    http://www.pixiq.com/article/man-arr...ops-in-florida

    http://www.pixiq.com/article/charges...orida-students

    O RLY?

    So how is it illegal if the charges were dropped and the swi... er, "Officers" are in hot water?

    Grab the cameras, destroy the evidence, fix it in the report. SOP.
    Last edited by ixtow; 03-17-2011 at 05:58 PM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Rick H's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Hoover, Alabama
    Posts
    323

    2nd party states

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfish View Post
    From just looking around it looks like FL is a 2 party state except when there is no expectation of privacy (when there is a chance the conversation could be overheard.)

    Anyone have any case law?
    You're in the state of FL, so it is illegal to record them without their consent. The following states require 2-party consent:
    California
    Connecticut
    Delaware
    Florida
    Massachusetts
    Maryland
    Michigan
    Montana New Hampshire
    Pennsylvania
    Washington
    Source(s):
    Note: Companies are the exception. If they announce the call may be recorded and you continue, it is implied consent.

    And I believe you can find the answers on this hyper link below.
    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...0934/0934.html
    Last edited by Rick H; 03-17-2011 at 05:59 PM.
    God Bless America.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •