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Thread: Editorial opposing restaurant carry

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    Angry Editorial opposing restaurant carry

    From today's Daily Reflector (Greenville)

    http://www.reflector.com/opinion/edi...un-laws-354473

    The establishment of a Republican majority in the General Assembly all but assured a push to loosen restrictions on gun owners in North Carolina. Some of these suggested changes seem worthy of consideration, like the so-called Castle Doctrine, which assumes the right of an individual to use deadly force when acting in self defense in a home, car or place of business.

    However, one proposed change, which would allow citizens with concealed-carry permits to bring their weapons into places that serve alcohol, stretches the boundary of propriety. There are some places where an influx of firearms threatens to do more harm than good, and Greenville's representatives should be among those standing in opposition to this change.

    With the GOP winning majorities in the state House and Senate for the first time in more than a century, it is no surprise that some issues sidelined by Democratic leadership for years would be dusted off for debate. Laws involving the purchase, possession and use of firearms make an easy target for Republican lawmakers seeking to appease their conservative base, though many suggestions find favor among Democrats, as well.

    The N.C . Senate S.B. 34, known as the Castle Doctrine, is one example. Individuals should have the right to defend themselves in their home, car or place of business when the threat of harm is evident. The argument that the statute would encourage vigilante justice is excessive in its fear.

    In contrast, the state law prohibiting concealed weapons in bars and restaurants is well founded. The state has a vested interest in keeping firearms away from places that serve alcohol, despite laws that make it a crime to drink while carrying a gun. Just as the state continues to fight those who operate a motor vehicle after drinking, it need not condone potentially putting a deadly weapon within reach of the irresponsible.

    Expect staunch defenders of the Second Amendment and gun enthusiasts to trot out the familiar arguments about self defense and citizens' rights. This time that rhetoric rings hollow. While there does exist the basic right to own a gun and, when properly trained and licensed, to conceal and carry that weapon, even the most responsible firearm advocates should recognize the inherent danger in mixing booze and bullets.

    Greenville struggles with the number of patrons already frequenting its bars and restaurants. Adding more firearms to the mix seems a recipe for disaster. Those who represent this community should not allow that to happen.

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    Please comment on this editorial

    If you are a subscriber to the Daily Reflector, please post a comment response to this editorial. If you are not a subscriber and would like to comment, post here or PM your comments to me and I will post them for you.

    I am still trying to formulate my comment. I had one typed, but deleted it and decided to re-think my response. I would love to be able to cite some statistics to back up my arguments (number of states who already have restaurant carry, etc.) If you have any suggestions let me know.

  3. #3
    mattwestm
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    The problem with articles like this is that they don't mention anything about Outback, Applebee's, or even Cubbie's. People are only thinking about CHP holders getting piss-ass drunk downtown in a bar. If someone is stupid enough to break the law by drinking and carrying, they are going to carry in a restaurant regardless of the law being present.

    I've never been to a bar downtown, nor do I plan on it, but it would be nice to be able to carry in some of my favorite restaurants that serve alcohol. I think Texas has a law stating that you can't carry in a place that generates more than 50% of their income from serving alcohol. The only places that includes are bars. I'm not sure how well that would work in NC and how you would determine it...]

    It also pisses me off that some people in the state have such a low opinion of CHP holders. If someone took their time and spent their money to obtain a CHP legally, why would they go and do something stupid like drinking and carrying? I feel like telling these people to do some research on states that allow carry in restaurants serving alcohol. How many times do you hear about a CHP holder in another state getting into a drunken brawl and shooting someone? NEVER
    Last edited by mattwestm; 03-18-2011 at 10:10 AM.

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    Regular Member elixin77's Avatar
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    Here's a comment from me:

    To those who think that people with a CHP (concealed handgun permit) are going to drink while carrying: think again (to 2012). It is illegal, by state law, for a person who is concealing their firearm to let even a sip of alcohol cross their lips (i.e., they can't blow above a 0.00 on a BAC test). If they do drink, and they get caught, they're in for some bad juju, to say the least.

    "But why do you need a gun out in public? It's not like your going to defend yourself there." (to Dorsey) Oh yeah, because, you know, people aren't raped in public either. Or mugged. Or shot. Just because you cross the threshold of your house doesn't mean you don't stop defending yourself to the best of your ability. As to your question about how many times I hear about people stopping a crime with a gun, or having their home broken into? That happens a lot - where have you been, in lala land? Hows this for some statistics (http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp):

    * At the current homicide rate, roughly one in every 240 Americans will be murdered.[23]
    * A U.S. Justice Department study based on crime data from 1974-1985 found:
    • 42% of Americans will be the victim of a completed violent crime (assault, robbery, rape) in the course of their lives
    • 83% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime
    • 52% of Americans will be the victim of an attempted or completed violent crime more than once[24]
    * A 1997 survey of more than 18,000 prison inmates found that among those serving time for a violent crime, "30% of State offenders and 35% of Federal offenders carried a firearm when committing the crime."

    Now, I personally don't want to become a statistics. However, I'm also not going to let myself become a statistic either, and I do that by carrying with me everywhere I can legally go. I'm not compensating for anything (don't know why people think that), I'm not scared of anything: I carry for my protection, because Pitt county is actually a fairly dangerous place. Just the other night, there was a small shootout near ECU, where 2 people were shot and a 3rd was injured. Did they need a gun out in public? You betcha. Oh, and before people start touting about how police are supposed to protect everyone - they're not legally obligated to (read up on Warren vs. DC - police have no legal obligation to protect anyone at all)

    Your argument is invalid, Dorsey - crime happens everywhere, even in the most rural areas. I will carry for protection, and I will keep myself safe.
    Taurus PT1911 .45 ACP. Carried in condition 1, with a total of 25 rounds.

    Vice President of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, ECU Chapter

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    To Dorsey: I believe you to be one of those people in the tv commercial about car insurance, "Have you been living under a rock?!"

    Just a little something for thought:

    "If guns kill people, then pencils misspell words, cars drive drunk, and spoons make people FAT. Remember: Hold the person accountable for their actions, not the means they chose to utilize!"

    I have concealed and open carried many places, and been thanked on occasion by the manager/owner/staff. Although it does not automatically put up a force field around you and your loved ones, it does provide a better sense of security and protection from those who wish to not abide by the law. Criminals will go where they can ply their trade of dishonesty.

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    My response to Dorsey:
    Contradictory much? You stated that there is a law that forbids CHP holders from carrying a weapon while intoxicated and I don't know of anyone who would appose that law. However you close your piece by saying "even the most responsible firearm advocates should recognize the inherent danger in mixing booze and bullets." No one wants to mix booze and bullets!
    Have you ever gone to lunch at a Applebees(or similar)? Because they serve alcohol we have to disarm to eat; I frustratingly run into this situation too often. What is so dangerous about carrying a concealed weapon while out to lunch for a burger and sweet tea? Are you claiming that the guy at bar may come over to me and try to disarm me while I'm eating? How would he know if I'm carrying concealed? It makes no sense. I'm glad to see that you support the castle doctrine but your argument against restaurant carry has a few holes.

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    Thanks for the post. I also replied to that stupid editorial.

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    Regular Member Resto Guy's Avatar
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    I have to think that this story is the root of the response posted by the Reflector. This is the hottest story in the area right now, and is gun and alcohol related. Never mind the other facts surrounding the circumstances, that place the shooting outside of the club.
    Sadly, one of the victims was someone I knew, a friend of my son.


    http://www.reflector.com/news/openin...y-trial-354569

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I've posted one of my usual long-winded responses to this article.

    Hopefully it will wake a few people up...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Post this:

    Restaurant carry is NOT a bad idea because in all the other states that allow it, including VA, there has NOT been a surge of drunken restaurant shootings. Just another quiet example of how it works when the government trusts the citizens.
    But don't let evidence get in the way of so called 'common sense' and good old fashioned hysteria.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    My tact with these guys is always to compare and contrast with THEIR favorite amendment. Why don't we put together some "common sense" laws and ordinances on the rights of the press?

    Why not come up with some regulatory acts that would stop people like Julian Assange? Look, we're not going to INFRINGE on the 1A, these will just help stop the "bad guys" from doing bad things with their printing presses and computers. Don't worry, if you're not one of those types this won't even really effect you!

    If all media and reporters could simply pass an ethics test before typing away, and have the BATFE's soon to be named cousin take a quick peek at your work before you publish I think it would go a long way toward making the news safer for us all.
    Last edited by Smith45acp; 03-19-2011 at 12:38 PM.
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

    I don't bother with pragmatic statistics while discussing my constitutional rights. The issue is far less complex, to me. Free men should be able to act like free men.

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    Restaurant carry went back into effect here in Tennessee late last Summer/early Fall. Had there been the drunken shooting rampages that were predicted, I would be they would have made national news.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Post this:

    Restaurant carry is NOT a bad idea because in all the other states that allow it, including VA, there has NOT been a surge of drunken restaurant shootings. Just another quiet example of how it works when the government trusts the citizens.
    But don't let evidence get in the way of so called 'common sense' and good old fashioned hysteria.
    The comment I already posted was very similar to this. Great minds think alike.

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    So they just assume everyone's going to drink huh?

    I went into a restaurant that serves today for lunch. What they heck, I was unarmed anyway since I drove 20 minutes away for a function at a school. Usually I pick a restaurant I can carry at. But the craziest thing happened. They sat us right next to the bar, can you believe that? I mean, all that evil alcohol right there. What's a man to do? I ordered sweet tea. It can happen.
    Last edited by chiefjason; 03-20-2011 at 12:04 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that there is NO federal law against the consumption of alcohol while open carrying...correct? The only legislation direct refers to concealed carrying? I tried to search to double check but it can get difficult when you're searching for a statute that possibly doesn't exist, lol.

    Anyway, assuming that is the case, that under federal law the only alcohol consumption addressed and banned is while carrying a concealed weapon, and I'm pretty sure its the same in North Carolina, you would think these folks would be more upset about the fact I can get hammered and still legally have my gun on my hip, rather than whether or not I can go to Applebee's.

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    Regular Member sultan62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by x3atthis View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that there is NO federal law against the consumption of alcohol while open carrying...correct? The only legislation direct refers to concealed carrying? I tried to search to double check but it can get difficult when you're searching for a statute that possibly doesn't exist, lol.

    Anyway, assuming that is the case, that under federal law the only alcohol consumption addressed and banned is while carrying a concealed weapon, and I'm pretty sure its the same in North Carolina, you would think these folks would be more upset about the fact I can get hammered and still legally have my gun on my hip, rather than whether or not I can go to Applebee's.
    You are correct concerning state law. I am unaware of the federal legislation you are referring to.
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    Regular Member rotorhead's Avatar
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    Troof.

    Federal law is silent on the matter. In fact, most gun legislation that affects us and our every day carrying is state law, not federal.

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    There are no metal detectors in bars. Just don't drink if you carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Post this:

    Restaurant carry is NOT a bad idea because in all the other states that allow it, including VA, there has NOT been a surge of drunken restaurant shootings.

    Except in MD, where drunken off-duty cops seem to be involved in a LOT of fights that result in shootings...

    http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news...man_after.html

    http://ourtaxdollarsatwork.wordpress...tion-shooting/

    http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2010/1...le-questioned/
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    I've posted one of my usual long-winded responses to this article.

    Hopefully it will wake a few people up...
    i think your comment in the paper was well put. just like all of the other thinking people responses were. i have run into the similar editorial in the Mt. Airy news and have been trying to come up with a response. i would like to incorporate some of the responses and comments i read.
    hb-111 is a bill i have been following closely. it does cover carry in the parks also. please contact the state reps. on the GRNC site and make some noise

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    Thumbs up Paper published a letter today in response to this editorial...

    Letter: N.C. safer with concealed guns

    http://www.reflector.com/opinion/let...ed-guns-358483

    At the risk of offering what is likely to be interpreted by your editorial staff as, “rhetoric that rings hollow,” I am very disappointed in your lack of support for reducing restrictions on where concealed handguns can be legally carried in our state (HB 111). In addition to state parks (including campgrounds that are often remote) this will include restaurants with ABC permits (most dinner restaurants).

    You suggest that this will, “condone potentially putting a deadly weapon within reach of the irresponsible.” This isn't true. The defensive weapons at issue will be in the possession of sober (alcohol cannot be consumed when armed) citizens with concealed handgun permits, which are by all statistical measures a responsible group.

    You suggest that this, “threatens to do more harm than good” and “seems like a recipe for disaster.” These are unfounded emotional assumptions that shouldn't be characterized as reasoned opinion. You only need look to our northern neighbor for the facts. Concealed carry in restaurants that serve alcohol is permitted in Virginia and the fears you promote have not been realized.

    The notable tragedies in Virginia have occurred where concealed carry still isn't permitted, college campuses. So unless you're suggesting that North Carolinians are less responsible than Virginians, there is no reason to oppose concealed carry in restaurants. In an increasingly violent society you want the good guys carrying guns; the bad guys will be whether or not it's legal. Citizens with concealed handgun permits are good guys. The more of them there are, the safer society will be.

    KEN SODERSTROM

    Greenville
    Last edited by tak2w; 03-22-2011 at 09:03 AM.

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    ^Very nice, Ken
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

    I don't bother with pragmatic statistics while discussing my constitutional rights. The issue is far less complex, to me. Free men should be able to act like free men.

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    Regular Member jerz_subbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith45acp View Post
    ^Very nice, Ken
    Agreed! Very well written, Ken! Clear, concise, and fact-based.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rotorhead View Post
    Troof.

    Federal law is silent on the matter. In fact, most gun legislation that affects us and our every day carrying is state law, not federal.
    There's an exception: LEOSA, 18 USC 926-B, requires that a LEO "is not under the influence of alcohol or another
    intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance" in order to enjoy an exception to state laws restricting the carry of concealed firearms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jerz_subbie View Post
    Agreed! Very well written, Ken! Clear, concise, and fact-based.
    The poster wasn't Ken. However I have passed on your kind words to Ken.

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