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Signs Preventing Carry

JesseL

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
207
Location
Prescott, Arizona, USA
Since I basically never go to bars, that bit shouldn't be a problem.


Keep in mind it's not just "bars". It's any establishment that serves alcohol for on premises consumption. That's pretty much every non-fast food restaurant there is in AZ.

We don't have anything like Texas' 51% rule.
 
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Super Saiyan

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2011
Messages
155
Location
Phoenix
Just my two cents:
Without getting into the legality of it, most places would just ask you to leave if they caught you CCing and they had a sign up against it. Hell, I've seen with my own eyes people OCing in places that serve alcohol, WITH signs up, and the employees didn't care. Not that I recommend it, but it happens.
While it certainly is possible for you to get the police called on you if you are caught CCing in a place that prohibits it, more than likely you would just be asked to leave and come back when you are unarmed. If you refuse, then you're most definitely going to get the cops called on you.
 

MR Redenck

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Messages
596
Location
West Texas
The Open Carry opposition in Texas are those who have been keeping it restricted.
Those same people are the CHLers.
For examply, Charles L. Cotton claims that HB2756 " Open Carry" wont work for Texans. The reason is because it's Licensed Open Carry. Constitutional Open carry was dead in the water because the same people didnt want anyone "Running Around without a License to carry".
Now here's what the "Elitist" are claiming. Licensed open carry wont work because 30.06 will apply to open carry as it will be licensed. " Well thats all we could get a bill for because of their anti-constitutional Elitist ideas".
Now their claiming we need a seperate sign for open carry. " No such thing, 30.06 is for licensed carry".
The Elitist gun organizations are what is wrong with the right to carry in Texas.
I dont see open carry being a problem for 30.06 signs. At first you might see them pop up, but business depends on profit, right.
We have to deal with this right now. The reason is nobody has dealt with open carry as of now. Lets bite the bullet and get out the BBQ pits. Sooner or later the signs will come down.
Dont let the Elitist stupidity of one old Troll stop us from restoring the rights of our children. Lets fix this so our children can keep and protect it.
 

steveincowtown

New member
Joined
Mar 18, 2011
Messages
4
Location
TX
I started this thread to discuss signs popping up in areas where OC is common. Not sure what that has to do with TX CHL Forum or Mr. Cotton.
 

Thoreau

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
315
Location
Phoenix, Arizona, USA
I didn't see a flurry of signs pop up all over the state when Constitutional Carry was passed last year. But, I did see a "no-guns" sign at my favorite restaurant in Prescott. Though I never asked them about it directly, they know me really well and they know that me and my friends talk about guns often. The sign did come down this past January so when I am not in the mood for a beer, I CC. I am wondering if the sign went up because of Constitutional Carry and came down when they realized the sky wasn't going to fall.

Ditto on not seeing any change when CC passed, but I think that's because all the signs had already gone up and kept Kinko's in business a little longer back when the 'guns in bars' law passed. People went apeshit when it became legal for a CCW permit holder to CONCEALED carry into a restaurant or bar that was NOT posted and NOT allow him or herself to have a drink while in there carrying. Even though the law prevented it, the 'guns and alcohol dont mix' lemmings couldn't comprehend it, and as a result damn near every restaurant around seemed to slap up the gunbusters.

That whole thing has finally died down some. I remember when it happened that there were tons of websites, databases, forum threads, etc. to list the pro and anti-gun establishments. Nowadays taht seems to be pretty much forgotten and us gun owners just go where we know we are welcome, and flip off those other places.

PS: Red Lobster out in the Arrowhead area didn't seem to be posted at all. Nothing on the doors and I could only find 'no smoking' signs near the liquor license at the bar last night =)

More to the point though, I do think that if Texas passes open carry, it will result in plenty of signs going up. If I were you, I'd welcome it for two major reasons. First, it's the restoration of a RIGHT that you should've had all along. Second, it will let you much more easily identify anti-2A businesses that shouldn't be getting your money in the first place. Trust me, there will still be businesses to meet your every need that do NOT put the signs up.
 

Thoreau

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
315
Location
Phoenix, Arizona, USA
Is there a bill being readied to change the legality of signs in AZ? I'd heard that there might be one.

Only thing I've heard of like that was that the CDL was working to tweak the wording/requirements for signs in the case of liquor licensed establishments. Basically trying to force them to be more clear with location, prominence, etc. Not sure what that was tied to or if it passed though.
 

azcdlfred

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Messages
901
Location
Tucson, Arizona, USA
Is there a bill being readied to change the legality of signs in AZ? I'd heard that there might be one.
We're looking into a bill for next year related to government offices signage language.

The signage for places that sell booze is spelled out in ARS 4-229.

Signage for private businesses is whatever the business wants it to be. Most times they quote the wrong statute, but that's irrelevant. It's their property and they can say "no firearms." However, it's a tresspassing issue, not a "weapon's misconduct" issue.

Fred
 
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We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
And GA, CO, WY, ID, AL, and MANY others.

And Oregon.

We can carry anywhere (with CHL) except Federal "facilities", "Court Facilities" (which don't include municipal (city) courts) though I wouldn't suggest testing that one...LOL, jails, and not much else (if anything).

Banks, bars, City hall, the "cop shops", even the airport terminals (outside the TSA area), are all open with a CHL. Without a CHL you lose the government facilities and a few towns have "loaded carry prohibited" (CHL trumps that).

We don't have Constitutional carry but we seem to be able to carry a lot more places than AZ with Constitutional carry (just can't conceal without the SHALL ISSUE CHL)
 

Thoreau

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
315
Location
Phoenix, Arizona, USA
Banks, bars, City hall, the "cop shops", even the airport terminals (outside the TSA area), are all open with a CHL. Without a CHL you lose the government facilities and a few towns have "loaded carry prohibited" (CHL trumps that).

We don't have Constitutional carry but we seem to be able to carry a lot more places than AZ with Constitutional carry (just can't conceal without the SHALL ISSUE CHL)

Just FYI,

Banks: Legal in AZ, with or without a permit
Bars: Legal in AZ if concealed, carrier has a CCW permit, they are not drinking, and the bar hasn't posted very specific signage prohibiting carry
City Hall: Can't say I've ever been there, but I suspect it would work much the same as private property in AZ.
Cop Shops: No idea what that actually is.
Airport Terminals (Outside of TSA-controlled 'secure' area): Legal in AZ, with or without a permit
 

We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
Just FYI,

Banks: Legal in AZ, with or without a permit
Bars: Legal in AZ if concealed, carrier has a CCW permit, they are not drinking, and the bar hasn't posted very specific signage prohibiting carry
City Hall: Can't say I've ever been there, but I suspect it would work much the same as private property in AZ.
Cop Shops: No idea what that actually is.
Airport Terminals (Outside of TSA-controlled 'secure' area): Legal in AZ, with or without a permit

Well AZ WAS on the top of my list for post college employment search but I'm having second thoughts.

OREGON:
State preemption, no political subdivision of the state can pass any ordinance, civil or criminal, regulating firearms EXCEPT cities and counties can ban carry of a loaded firearm BUT CHL holders are exempt from any such ordinance.

City hall, Police stations, Universities (other than private) and Community colleges, county sheriff, etc. (all public entities). No criminal violation, regardless of what signs may say, for a CHL holder to carry (open or concealed).

Private Property: Signs have no force of law, you can be trespassed, but walking past a sign is (aside from bad manners) perfectly legal until you are asked to leave.

Bars: No prohibition, not even prohibited to be drunk while carrying (I do NOT recommend it however) and you don't need a permit if it's open carry. On the other hand, open carry will almost always have you asked to take the weapon outside.

When I first read of AZ's "Constitutional Carry" I thought "that's where I'm going. Having researched the restrictions, even though we need a CHL in Oregon for concealed carry, it's "shall issue" and cheap ($50 for 4 year renewal), there is no firing qualification, just a 4 hour BS class, fingerprints, background check and the application.

Oh and "cop shop" is the station house.

Wonder what the jobs outlook is in Montanna?
 

randian

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
380
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Cop Shops: No idea what that actually is.
I assume that means "police department building". IIRC, there is no specific prohibition in AZ on carrying inside a police department, though they can (and probably do) have a sign outside ordering you not to, which has force of law. I am unclear on whether the temporary holding area for prisoners makes a PD a "jail", which is one of the prohibited areas in AZ (even in the parking lot).

Oregon allows K-12 and college campus carry with a carry license, which is better than AZ, but since they can just post "no firearms" signs, in practice you can't actually carry there. It wouldn't be a firearms violation, since as a license holder you'd be exempt, but it would be misdemeanor trespassing if caught.
We-the-People said:
And Oregon
According to handgunlaw.us, "no firearms" signs do have force of law in Oregon. The relevant law 164.265, making criminal trespass a Class A misdemeanor, states that "To enter and remain unlawfully" means (among other things) "To enter or remain in or upon premises when the premises, at the time of such entry or remaining, are not open to the public or when the entrant is not otherwise licensed or privileged to do so" or "To enter premises that are open to the public after being lawfully directed not to enter". I believe the claim is that either of those aims (removing your privilege to enter or lawfully directing you not to enter) can be accomplished with a "no guns" sign. Of course, if this is wrong I'd be happy to be corrected.
 
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We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
Yes, "Cop Shop" means police building. Here in Oregon they are all posted and the signs have no force of law as state law specifically exempts CHL holders from any and all local ordinances attempting to regulate firearms. Non CHL holders can not enter public buildings with a firearm (loaded or unloaded).

Every state is different, here in Oregon you can not go into the "secure area" of a jail. If you are in the lobby or offices you are legal, if you want to enter a holding cell (or prisoner processing area if a large department) you would have to leave the firearm outside.

K-12 and college campus's can put up all the signage they want here, the signs have no force of law. If you are asked to leave and don't then you can be trespassed. This is currently a point of contention in the state as the schools all have policies prohibiting firearms but they also generally say when asked "CHL holders would be exempt from our policies" but in practice they trespass and/or expell lawful carriers. We currently have a case in the courts where a student, Iraqi vet, was arrested by local PD after security detained him for a firearm....charges were dropped "in the interest of justice" by the DA but the state university expelled him and the university system said he was "not welcome in any university" in the state. Lawmakers were furious - well the non anti's anyway. That case is in the civil system and will likely cost the state a chunk of change as he was expelled for some time until his attorney convinced them to readmit him until the case was settled.

As for "trespassing if caught", the signs are not relevant. Only if you are personally told to leave, and don't, can you be trespassed. The "open to the public" (ORS 164.265) is any and all public buildings (i.e. government), businesses open to the public, and the like. ZThe meaning is that if they are CLOSED and you are there, it's trespassing, if they are open, you must be TOLD.

Our laws are simple, in plain english (even though we have a ton of Commiefornians who have immigrated here), and can be printed on 3 sheets of standard paper and easilly carried by the open or concealed carrier. ORS 166.170 though ORS 166.380 are the applicable sections with 166.170 being pre emption and 166.173 giving ONLY cities and counties the ability to regulate loaded (but not unloaded) carry for those who do not have CHL's.

Like I said, I thought with the passage of AZ's Constitutional Carry that the laws there would be more lax than here but I'm finding that there are far more restrictions than I would think would come with something called "Constitutional" carry.

However, AZ is a far sight better than most other states and has a hardworking group seeking to make it even better. I have no doubt that in the near future Oregon's liberal gun grabbers will make inroads while those in AZ will be heading for other states as your local advocacy groups make more and more progress.

Who knows, by the time I graduate, it may truly be Constitutional Carry in AZ.
 
Joined
Aug 20, 2008
Messages
200
Location
Prescott Valley, AZ
Yes, "Cop Shop" means police building. Here in Oregon they are all posted and the signs have no force of law as state law specifically exempts CHL holders from any and all local ordinances attempting to regulate firearms. Non CHL holders can not enter public buildings with a firearm (loaded or unloaded).

Every state is different, here in Oregon you can not go into the "secure area" of a jail. If you are in the lobby or offices you are legal, if you want to enter a holding cell (or prisoner processing area if a large department) you would have to leave the firearm outside.

K-12 and college campus's can put up all the signage they want here, the signs have no force of law. If you are asked to leave and don't then you can be trespassed. This is currently a point of contention in the state as the schools all have policies prohibiting firearms but they also generally say when asked "CHL holders would be exempt from our policies" but in practice they trespass and/or expell lawful carriers. We currently have a case in the courts where a student, Iraqi vet, was arrested by local PD after security detained him for a firearm....charges were dropped "in the interest of justice" by the DA but the state university expelled him and the university system said he was "not welcome in any university" in the state. Lawmakers were furious - well the non anti's anyway. That case is in the civil system and will likely cost the state a chunk of change as he was expelled for some time until his attorney convinced them to readmit him until the case was settled.

As for "trespassing if caught", the signs are not relevant. Only if you are personally told to leave, and don't, can you be trespassed. The "open to the public" (ORS 164.265) is any and all public buildings (i.e. government), businesses open to the public, and the like. ZThe meaning is that if they are CLOSED and you are there, it's trespassing, if they are open, you must be TOLD.

Our laws are simple, in plain english (even though we have a ton of Commiefornians who have immigrated here), and can be printed on 3 sheets of standard paper and easilly carried by the open or concealed carrier. ORS 166.170 though ORS 166.380 are the applicable sections with 166.170 being pre emption and 166.173 giving ONLY cities and counties the ability to regulate loaded (but not unloaded) carry for those who do not have CHL's.

Like I said, I thought with the passage of AZ's Constitutional Carry that the laws there would be more lax than here but I'm finding that there are far more restrictions than I would think would come with something called "Constitutional" carry.

However, AZ is a far sight better than most other states and has a hardworking group seeking to make it even better. I have no doubt that in the near future Oregon's liberal gun grabbers will make inroads while those in AZ will be heading for other states as your local advocacy groups make more and more progress.

Who knows, by the time I graduate, it may truly be Constitutional Carry in AZ.

I'm curious. For all of your crowing, have you personally tested (with OC) the supposed "no-force-of-law" signage of "cop shops?" Or many of your other examples?

I ask, because I have made it a point to test the various limits of OC laws and whatnot here in AZ (and, being a native, I've had many years in which to do it). This in recent years has included testing the CC laws "restrictions" as well.

I've had many a fun time waiting at Sky Harbor airport for various family members to arrive whilst OC'ing my 1911. The reaction of Left coasters (including OR and WA) and East coasters is particularly satisfying. And the chimpouts when they contact the onsite police and find out it is perfectly legal are a sight to behold.

Of course, dealing with the occasional idiot TSA employee can be a little annoying...
 

We-the-People

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
2,221
Location
White City, Oregon, USA
I'm curious. For all of your crowing, have you personally tested (with OC) the supposed "no-force-of-law" signage of "cop shops?" Or many of your other examples?

I ask, because I have made it a point to test the various limits of OC laws and whatnot here in AZ (and, being a native, I've had many years in which to do it). This in recent years has included testing the CC laws "restrictions" as well.

I've had many a fun time waiting at Sky Harbor airport for various family members to arrive whilst OC'ing my 1911. The reaction of Left coasters (including OR and WA) and East coasters is particularly satisfying. And the chimpouts when they contact the onsite police and find out it is perfectly legal are a sight to behold.

Of course, dealing with the occasional idiot TSA employee can be a little annoying...

I open carry everywhere I go except school where I carry an empty holster and refuse to allow a search, provide ID, or answer questions about "where is your gun". I carry the empty holster openly because, while legal, the school would expel me and I prefer my degree now rather than in 3 years or so when I might win the legal case. Recently I've placed a pistol in a shoulder holster in my safe at home so that I can truthfully answer the question "wheres your gun" with "In my shoulder holster".

I haven't open carried into a cop shop here as I've had no reason to go into one since I started open carrying exclusively (almost two years). I have however, carried at the State Capital building (an officer observed me for approx 5 mins and then left), the park in front of the local police station during a political rally (8-12 officers observed me but did nothing more than walk past), City Hall (where the permanent police station and municipal court are located (with no firearms signs) but not actually into the police offices.

Basically, I go where my business takes me and I open carry except in those very few places that are prohibited (court facilities, federal facilities, jails, beyond TSA). I don't go to places "just to see what happens" as the attitudes around here are pretty good and "pushing" isn't necessary. If I lived in Portland or Salem, it would be a different situation as in those areas it's a totally different environment all around as to how lawful carry is treated.

I do make sure to carry my recorders (two so that I can "give one up" and still have audio) whenever my business takes me somewhere that is more likely to have an issue (county offices, city hall, other cities, etc.). But in the two years I've been carrying I've had ZERO law enforcement interaction beyond the aforementioned "observe and departs", a very nice conversation that I started with an off duty Sheriffs deputy one day.

Only one location has denied me access, the local mall, and only because I was carrying. I was not trespassed and was told I could come in without the weapon....I don't spend my money in locations that do not recognize my rights..... Only one bank has ever even questioned my firearm and that, according to the manager, was because they'd recently been robbed and she was concerned that her tellers would freak out.

All in all it's pretty boring for an open carrier (I AM NOT COMPLAINING) here in Southern Oregon.
 

Thoreau

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
315
Location
Phoenix, Arizona, USA
I open carry everywhere I go except school where I carry an empty holster and refuse to allow a search, provide ID, or answer questions about "where is your gun". I carry the empty holster openly because, while legal, the school would expel me and I prefer my degree now rather than in 3 years or so when I might win the legal case. Recently I've placed a pistol in a shoulder holster in my safe at home so that I can truthfully answer the question "wheres your gun" with "In my shoulder holster".

I haven't open carried into a cop shop here as I've had no reason to go into one since I started open carrying exclusively (almost two years). I have however, carried at the State Capital building (an officer observed me for approx 5 mins and then left), the park in front of the local police station during a political rally (8-12 officers observed me but did nothing more than walk past), City Hall (where the permanent police station and municipal court are located (with no firearms signs) but not actually into the police offices.

Basically, I go where my business takes me and I open carry except in those very few places that are prohibited (court facilities, federal facilities, jails, beyond TSA). I don't go to places "just to see what happens" as the attitudes around here are pretty good and "pushing" isn't necessary. If I lived in Portland or Salem, it would be a different situation as in those areas it's a totally different environment all around as to how lawful carry is treated.

I do make sure to carry my recorders (two so that I can "give one up" and still have audio) whenever my business takes me somewhere that is more likely to have an issue (county offices, city hall, other cities, etc.). But in the two years I've been carrying I've had ZERO law enforcement interaction beyond the aforementioned "observe and departs", a very nice conversation that I started with an off duty Sheriffs deputy one day.

Only one location has denied me access, the local mall, and only because I was carrying. I was not trespassed and was told I could come in without the weapon....I don't spend my money in locations that do not recognize my rights..... Only one bank has ever even questioned my firearm and that, according to the manager, was because they'd recently been robbed and she was concerned that her tellers would freak out.

All in all it's pretty boring for an open carrier (I AM NOT COMPLAINING) here in Southern Oregon.

School, 'cop shops', state capital, city hall, court, federal buildings, jails, past-tsa, etc. I guess I'm lucky that I don't have a life where I have to spend time in those places. The closest to any of those that matters even remotely to me is the state capital, and even then I don't care about going INTO it as it's perfectly legal outside which is where all the political fun/rallies/photo ops happen anyway.

If I were in Oregon, I'd be more concerned with the fact that the Brady Campaign gave my state 12 points, including 4 for some sort of vague 'record-keeping' (?), 2 for allowing cops to do inspections of some type, and 7 for closing the 'gun show loophole'.

And far more important, to me anyway, than any of the above, 2 points for "Employers not forced to allow firearms in parking lots ." I quite enjoy not being disarmed on my commute since that isn't an issue in AZ as of a couple years ago.

*hugs the Brady Bunch's 0 score for AZ*
http://www.bradycampaign.org/stategunlaws/scorecard/AZ

With regards to your mall incident, that is the exact same thing that would happen in Arizona. Much as you state, I simply don't spend my money in such places. I don't walk right past the no-guns sign and wait for them to ask me to leave either. Who am I to force an ignorant business to take my money when there are many others who are happy to have me as a customer.
 
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