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Thread: Only Maniacs Open Carry

  1. #1
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Only Maniacs Open Carry

    According to our friends at CGN:
    http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...&postcount=123

    But don't bother trying to call them out on this hypocrisy, you'll just have your post deleted.

    To be perfectly honest, I've tried outreach to these people to join forces on events and they refuse, in favor of holding rallies in VDZs so that the average citizen in the city has no means of defending themselves. I've offered to help with setting up A/V equipment because SBOC members generously donate the equipment and setup at our events regularly. Our board members have reached out to them to work together and instead we are given personal insults (I'm happy to pm you the conversations and screen shots if you are skeptical).

    I've tried really hard to give them the benefit of the doubt, that they really do mean well for 2A rights, but they sure make it hard!

  2. #2
    Regular Member 1 2 many's Avatar
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    ?

    Wow I always thought cgn was on board with oc movement.

  3. #3
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Is there a point to this thread? CGN is a big tent and a great resource. So someone disagrees you. Do you want to bring more fights to the board? I don't think only maniacs oc. I do think some ocers can't however see a realistic path to a court protected right and that one doesn't get that by aiming for the whole enchilada or throwing themselves on the enemy's spears in pro per kamikaze hail Mary law suits as if failure is glorious and any effort for effort sake is good.

    I know like you know that oc in public is no big deal. However the goal right now should be to not lose legislative battles (inspire more bad laws from the powers we can't control) while we await court protection. The hearts and minds, for now, can be changed and won without exposed arms stirring the other side to action.

    Most at CGN and CGF support 'constitutional carry' as a goal. That's far from anti-oc. Not supporting Uoc at this time in metropolitan areas is strategic not a judgment on oc vs cc. cc should be just as much a right as oc. And the government may get to license it. That will be a case for further down the road after basic bear, in that fashion allowed by state law, is recognized.

    Incrementalism will win the day, just like it did for civil rights. Brown vs Board of Ed was brought in KS not the deep south for a reason. Cases, courts, and plaintiffs were chosen carefully and it will take time to get what we want.


    Good day, carry on!

    http://www.watson.org/~lisa/blackhis...hts/brown.html

    With Brown's complaint, it had "the right plaintiff at the right time."
    Last edited by cato; 03-19-2011 at 09:44 AM.

  4. #4
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    and rule #(12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked

    note: OC is defined on this board generally as Loaded open carry in holsters.
    Last edited by cato; 03-20-2011 at 07:57 AM.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    According to our friends at CGN:
    That's crap, Harley, and you know it.

    First is instead of "calling them out", you need to hit the "!" symbol and report the post if you feel it violates the rules. Here is what exactly you're talking about.

    "I think by not having a bunch of guns present, at least visibly present is that it conveys that we're reasonable to the general public and not a bunch of maniacs. However as pointed out by the creators of this rally, the general public wasn't the target audience."

    Wow, the opinion of 1 person out of how many? 30K?

    You also forget your own culpability with this fight:

    If that's something that would like to be done at future events in LA area, let SBOC know. We have members who are specialists that donate and setup A/V equipment whenever we need it at our events, we'd be happy to join pro-2A events held outside of VDZs.


    You actually stated in the forum thread and made comments that "Oh, that gather is small, us SBOC guys got larger gathers, maybe you should have had this in a non-UOC banned area or we would have shown up", completely missing the point of the gather entirely. You were called out rightfully.

    To which was responded by Gene:

    My you're a one trick pony. You keep assuming no one was armed. I can guarantee you that there were multiple armed individuals there - and some of them even had loaded firearms! In a school zone!

    From jdberger:

    Nurses without patients.

    Librarians without books.

    Longshoremen without cargo.

    Air Traffic Controllers without airplanes.

    Harley, you're being myopic and short sighted. You're doing your cause a disservice. You appear petulant and jealous.

    You've been invited. The gracious thing to do is say, "Thank you." Not, "I really don't like the color of your drapes."

    At this point, you're setting fire to the bridge.

    Stop digging.


    Indeed, Harley, you're trying to gain sympathy on this subforum against those "awful anti-OC CalGunners" when you're being called out for your petulance. The fact is that A) the MAIG situation required that the gather be where it was. B) UOC is banned by law there, yet you claim that certain board members of SBOC have PC12050 carry licenses. Why didn't they bother showing up? Why didn't you offer help? I can tell you that the OC organizations in other states would never pull this kind of crap with the larger movement, refusing to help just because one cannot purely OC there.

    More:

    Quote Originally Posted by oaklander View Post
    Brandon,

    I was actually laughing out loud when I started reading these "please let us sit with the grownups" posts.

    THEY WERE ALL INVITED. . .

    In fact, UOC'ers are not excluded from anything. The problem is that there are simply places that (a) you simply CAN'T UOC (like in this part of downtown LA), and (b) there are certain events in which UOC is not the whole event. . .

    I've had leading UOC folks over at my house in Oakland, and they are fine folks - but their movement seems to contain SOME people who are so focused on carrying around empty guns, that they forget that there is more work to be done than simply meeting up for coffee. . .

    This is the reason that some UOC groups are not taken seriously, and it is nice when that reason unfolds in real time. . .

    The total and utter complete lack of political awareness shown by the "can we sit at the big table?" posts is utterly fascinating, and sad. . .

    But it's kind of interesting, and I am sure we will see more of this. . .

    EDIT: let me explain this further for the new folks who do not know how things work. . .

    In the gun rights "fight" - there are something like 150 different "fronts" that we work on (CCW, OLLs, general laws, federal laws, state laws, local zoning issues, local laws, FFL issues, C&R issues, NFA stuff, public perception, politics, local politics, outreach, lead ammo, shooting range closures, etc., etc.)

    SOME (not all) UOC people have the single and simplistic idea that walking around with an unloaded gun is going to somehow "make" all of the above stuff happen. It's like the "magical thinking" that you see with small children. An example is a 3 year old who thinks that if he wishes hard enough, "Spongebob" will actually come to his 4th birthday party. IT IS NOT BASED ON REALITY.

    We would LOVE for UOC folks to get more involved in gun rights - but they need to start helping with the other 149 things we are working on.
    Oaklander is right. You want support for your position? Stop making it solely about "your issue". My involvement in other issues up in Washington State in terms of gun issues was critical in getting the early support for OC that was needed to make it accepted by local law enforcement.
    Last edited by Gray Peterson; 03-19-2011 at 11:00 AM.

  6. #6
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Mr. Green-

    I think it is important that any dissent about unloaded open carry, even if inaccurate or FUDish does not necessitate a response. Yes, many Calguns members do not like or approve of unloaded open carry, but it is not something I focus my attention on. You have to consider that like any internet forum, it is populated by a spectrum of people who do not think like you do and the effectiveness of exposing hypocrisy with those who do not agree with you is not in proportion to the need to cooperate on some meaningful level with those who have our best interests in mind regarding the future of gun rights in California.

    I would suggest, that before you write off Calguns events and cooperation, it would be beneficial to contact your areas C3 cooridinator to offer your time not as founder of SBUOC, but as someone who wants to pitch in. You could fly one banner while helping over at Calguns, and fly your banner over your group- there's no conflict with that. The added benefit is that you make new contacts and allow Calgunners the opportunity to get to know you before they make up their minds that you are maniac.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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  7. #7
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    As a persona non grata at most of calguns, I will point out that a great many CGN members, especially the newer ones, are kind of moronic. CGF guys, however, are absolutely worth listening to and working with and don't ******** around. There is a reason they have been kicking ass and they are the gorillas in this fight in CA.

  8. #8
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ca Patriot View Post
    I stopped going on Cal Guns because every time I spoke up in defense of open carry I was attacked more viciously than Brady people do.

    I find the hostile attitude of the Cal Guns board and their members towards open carry as despicable.
    I find the attitude of some UOC's quite despicable, too. The CGF Board members have earned their stripes defending gun rights in general. Sam Wolanyk's settlement with SDPD (stripping them of qual immunity if they mess up again), the Oceanside Marine, and Theseus moneybomb proves the CGF is OC friendly.

    Some members of the UOC movement, including some leadership, keep forgetting they are part of a larger gun rights movement, and then refuse to help when asked because of some truly inane crap that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

    These elements do not play well with others, to a level I have never seen in any other state. Washington state OC movement doesn't treat the larger gun issues groups with this sort of disdain. If they need bodies to pack the statehouse committee room for a gun show bill or an assault weapons ban bill, we do it without a second thought, regardless of a particular past grudge issues, but the WA OC movement knows they are part of the gun rights movement and when the chips fall, we stand together.

    Are you in it for OC? Or are you in it for gun rights in general? Are you just an OC geek? Or are you a leader?

    Gray Peterson

  9. #9
    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    The term "geek" originally referred to the carnival performers whose act consisted of biting the heads off chickens and eating glass. Over time it came to be applied to anyone who got paid to do work considered odd or bizarre by mainstream society.

    These days, it's the guy you picked on in school, and you work for him now.
    Last edited by Gundude; 03-20-2011 at 12:14 AM.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

  10. #10
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gundude View Post
    The term "geek" originally referred to the carnival performers whose act consisted of biting the heads off chickens and eating glass. Over time it came to be applied to anyone who got paid to do work considered odd or bizarre by mainstream society.

    These days, it's the guy you picked on in school, and you work for him now.
    Even a geeky type needs leadership skills in order for you to work for them, ya know.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Gundude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    Even a geeky type needs leadership skills in order for you to work for them, ya know.
    I had Bill Gates in mind.
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.

  12. #12
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Yes I'm an OC "geek".

    I'm also a computer geek and at 25 years old I'm happy to put my accomplishments and track record against anyones, both in my professional career and 2nd amendment rights activist career.

    I don't hide my credentials like the antis, and quite frankly, I wish I didn't have to be in the position I'm in. It would have been nice to graduate college, move to the South Bay and find a very strong, active, pro-2A gun rights group to join forces with and not have to start one from scratch.

    But the fact was that none really existed. Yes there were a couple NRA members councils within driving distance, but had anyone heard of them, how many attended their meetings, did any of them actually carry firearms at their meetings, much less their daily lives before SBOC started? I know the South Bay NRA Members Council's regular meeting numbers have doubled, if not more since I started SBOC. So to say I am unwilling to work with or support other 2A groups is just absurd.

    I fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your perspective) had to start one so that average, law abiding citizens like myself and my wife could help each other exercise what slivers of the 2nd amendment we have left in CA to be able to defend ourselves in public, without waiting (while unarmed) "two more weeks". The numbers of people joining SBOC and attending our events speaks to the fact that people are really fed up with waiting "two weeks" to be able to defend themselves for the last 50 years.

    I can't CC legally where I live, so the only way myself, my wife, and my friends where I live except few that have LEO backgrounds and CCWs can defend ourselves is with CA's bastardized OC. The reason the other members of SBOC that I am aware of that possess CCW permits did not go to this event is because they had no idea it was happening. Despite popular belief, CGN is not the end-all be-all of 2A rights activists in CA, many couldn't care less what happens on CGN, and many have never even heard of CGF (I know because I ask people at our meetings and at other pro-gun places I go like local ranges and firearms training courses).

    I personally will not willingly go someplace that I know is a VDZ if I can help it, especially if there are alternative venues not in VDZs that can accomplish my same objective. Doing otherwise is counter to basic human nature of self-preservation.

    Quite frankly, I've had far more press/media come to our events that are not in VDZs than showed up at this protest. So saying "location, location, location" is true, but the chosen location for the event in question was clearly not ideal because there was not much press coverage and only people DRENCHED in gun rights issues even know that this event occurred. So while I am all for the end goal it was aiming for, it clearly missed the mark.

  13. #13
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    25 years old? All I can say is you'll likely understand the above when your 35. Our trains are passing in the night. Switch trains brother, mine is headed toward the light at the end of the tunnel. And it would be a great service to RKBA.

  14. #14
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    IMHO it quite simply boils down to this. If you are advocating for your rights, do it while exercising them.
    If you had to advocate for your right to free speech you would not go to a rally with a gag on. I would not attend an event that was held where I could not OC when it could have been held somewhere else. Admittedly I do not know that much about CGN so I won't critique but I stand by being armed whenever and wherever possible and
    I have changed my routine so that I can carry to more places that I need to go.

    I have been to nearly all of SBOC's events and the impact they are having and the rate at which membership is increasing is signifigant. If you are CGN get to an event and see what I am talking about and please do open carry.

  15. #15
    Regular Member ryanburbridge's Avatar
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    People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids?...It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice....They won the battle, but they haven't won the war....Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out.

    By Rodney King


    Ok now that we are all better I'd like to say. I personally feel like I have failed! We have groups we have meets we have forums! But do we have FREEDOM?!!

    I give HGreen my respect. I thought at 26 I had a good resume. This guy has done quite a bit in a short time.

    As to the guys representing CGN and CGF. I do enjoy your posts and see you have many years of service to the gun community. Thank you!

    If you look at the ages of some of the people on this forum it surprising how many young people are here.

    IMHO I feel the older you are the more responsibility you must bear when it comes to allowing our FREEDOMS to erode! Not just our 2nd A rights but all of them!

    Yes it would be nice to all unite and win the war BUT! Looking at the state of things the tactics being used may not be working.

    The OP is young and probably fed up with the current tactics. I know I am!!

    I have posted a small glimpse of what I think we should do and have been silenced by those who disagree at THIS forum!

    Here's what I think.

    Instead of being boiled alive I'd rather the COLLECTIVISTS just crank up the heat! Maybe then the individualist will wake up!

    Dose everyone here have a line drawn in the sand?!!

    Dose everyone know what and how they will react when that line is crossed?!!

    Dose everyone know what basic GOD given rights they should demand!

    Can you say RANT RANT RANT!

    !sigh!

    I do not have the line drawn.
    I do not know what I would do.
    I'll just cave like so many have done before me. I wish I could have met the likes of our founders true patriots. Willing to die for what they believe.

    I know now why the founding of our nation is not taught in school. It may spark a fire in the hart of FREEDOM!!

    Sorry to rant I can't even see why I started this in my phone. lol

    Taken me about two hours on and off. I'll edit it later to keep everyone calm!

    I'm off

    Carry on


    "If squirt guns are outlawed, only outlaw squirts will have guns!"

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    Ryan Burbridge
    "If squirt guns are outlawed, only outlaw squirts will have guns!"

    James Taranto

  16. #16
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    Thanks to Hgreen and SBOC.

    Hello Hgreen,

    In three dimensional chess, divide and conquer must be a winning strategy. Too bad that a group of elitest CGN groupies and lawyer wannabees come to this site and personally attack people promoting RKBA.

    Dividing and conquering fellow proponents won't gain RKBA victories.

    Some of us don't care about CCW. I want to be able to put my guns in my car, drive to hunting or hiking areas, and OC. I want to be free of the overlapping GFSZ that encompass my house, so that I can OC while biking or hiking on a local country road where my wife and I have been attacked by semi-wild dogs.

    I don't want to be "in the closet" about my guns, my self defense, and my creator granted and Constitutionally gauranteed rights.

    Gay men, lesbians, cross dressers (including women who wear pants), transgender, tattoo adorned, nudists, tree huggers, neo-marxists, et allia, don't need to hide their passions either.

    ONE CAVEAT: DON'T CROSS THE LINE AND MAKE ME LIVE YOUR LIFESTYLE. I enjoy the company of all of the above; most of them are extremely nice people.

    The same applies to gun ownership and use.

    Using eletist rhetoric to keep me in the closet is offensive.

    This summer, my wife and I will be hiking, fishing, and biking in ursus horibilis country. I want my bear spray and 44 magnum on my hip. I can't wait for the tree huggers to throw their fit when they see my holstered gun--it is so much fun watching them squirm!

    Way to go Hgreen!

    markm
    Last edited by MarkBofRAdvocate; 03-20-2011 at 01:15 PM. Reason: Added article "The"

  17. #17
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEFENSOR View Post

    I have been to nearly all of SBOC's events and the impact they are having and the rate at which membership is increasing is signifigant. If you are CGN get to an event and see what I am talking about and please do open carry.
    Impact? Progress with UOC is measured in dozons of new active members. Those exposed by the limited media exposures is certainly in the thousands. To prevent new bad legislation, one would need millions actively on our side and millions more would be needed to put legislators and a governor in place to repeal the existing RKBA violating law.

    Societal change take decades. UOC has and will continue to inspire new bad legislation faster then any societal change can prevent it, if ever. The only chance for CA RKBA in the near term are the current and future civil suits or a very lucky criminal defendant.

    Current UOC practice in CA should be 'do no harm' in the short term while waiting for court protected 'bear'. Once loaded carry in some form is protected, oc or cc, licensed or not, the antis are nearly crushed.
    Last edited by cato; 03-20-2011 at 02:35 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    Some of us don't care about CCW. I want to be able to put my guns in my car, drive to hunting or hiking areas, and OC. I want to be free of the overlapping GFSZ that encompass my house, so that I can OC while biking or hiking on a local country road where my wife and I have been attacked by semi-wild dogs.
    Surely CCW is a good first step? CCW, interstate license reciprocity, and non-resident permits are far more doable than OC.

  19. #19
    Regular Member hgreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    Surely CCW is a good first step? CCW, interstate license reciprocity, and non-resident permits are far more doable than OC.
    Depends which kool-aid you are sipping.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    Depends which kool-aid you are sipping.
    I said "more doable", not "likely".

    Even in states like Texas and Florida, both of which are shall-issue CC states where it's legal to own machine guns, it will be a hard fight to get OC.

  21. #21
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgreen View Post
    Depends which kool-aid you are sipping.
    I abhor licensing for the same reasons I believe you do. There is however a very good argument, based on history and jurisprudence, that Alan Gura's approach is the most likely to succeed. He's batting 100% in SCOTUS. I would not bet against him. This forms the main ingredient in my brand of cool aid and one which I hope Federal judges like too. Licensing will be addressed later...baby steps will get us there...

    UOC will give us more road blocks in the short term which will have to be fought. I dislike cc with a passion, but it will ease CA toward its constitutional carry future (I hope).
    Last edited by cato; 03-22-2011 at 01:17 AM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member wildhawker's Avatar
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    The reality is that there are only 3 paths to non-licensed carry as a rule:

    1. Alan Gura (and progeny) cases incrementally seek to undo the anti-carry statutes and jurisprudence (that are largely based on junk science and pre-Heller constitutional theory). The compounding effect of the cases and legislation (norming) creates an additional lever in both legislative and jurisprudential venues to use for broader legislation and litigation until the societal and constitutional margin of "bear" is reached.

    2. Constitutional amendment which expressly protects non-licensed bearing of [some defined classes of] arms.

    3. Civil war and ratification of a constitution which expressly protects non-licensed bearing of [some defined classes of] arms.

    Anyone who thinks that we're going to get non-licensed, non-TPM regulated carry at USSC in the next 10 years is optimistic beyond reason (even if it were possible in that timeframe, a system of unlicensed carry "too soon" [for societal acceptance] increases the likelihood that an amendment working the other direction would be raised and ratified).

    In the meantime, and as we fight for non-licensed carry over the longer term, should we not work to arm the greatest number of US residents using every possible manner, making the bearing of arms (and corollary commerce, training, and culture) a part of their daily lives, as may be possible in their jurisdiction and suitable to their lifestyle?

    Please, as we continue to press forward, let not the perfect get in the way of the armed enough.

    -Brandon

    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    I abhor licensing for the same reasons I believe you do. There is however a very good argument, based on history and jurisprudence, that Alan Gura's approach is the most likely to succeed. He's batting 100% in SCOTUS. I would not bet against him. This forms the main ingredient in my brand of cool aid and one which I hope Federal judges like too. Licensing will be addressed later...baby steps will get us there...

    UOC will give us more road blocks in the short term which will have to be fought. I dislike cc with a passion, but it will ease CA toward its constitutional carry future (I hope).
    Last edited by wildhawker; 03-22-2011 at 02:59 AM.
    Brandon Combs
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  23. #23
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    They have perspective

    I think Calguns gives lots of perspective outside of an open carry box.
    I like it as my first "firearms" forum, learned lots and lots of advice from a variety of people, like "polling the audience".

    I gotta agree with "the likelihood that an amendment working the other direction would be raised and ratified"

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