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Thread: Pit Bull encounter? Shoot, don't shoot, draw, don't draw

  1. #1
    Regular Member LaCrosseKevin's Avatar
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    Question Pit Bull encounter? Shoot, don't shoot, draw, don't draw

    I've been looking for threads here of "shoot, don't shoot" scenarios .... "draw, don't draw" .... but the search takes me to "whats new" instead of thread titles. I'll try to figure that out, and if this topic is old hat, slap my hand, my apologies.

    I was pottying my dog in '04 in my yard and had a pit bull come up on us, and had my dog pinned to the ground. My dog was screaming bloody murder, and no matter what I did to the pit, he wouldn't let go. I was twisting his collar, punching him, my dad is pounding on him with a recycling bin. I tried lifting him at one point and he had such a grip on my dog, it lifted my dog off the ground! At this point, I thought one of them lives, one dies, and it's not going to be my dog that winds up dead. I pulled out a pocket knife that has a lever on it for one hand operation, and went to work .... the pit let go. I stabbed him 3 times, in the liver & chest. After my dad secured my dog, the pit went wandering away, and tried to attack another dog! It couldn't get leverage on the great dane, then the owner showed up.

    If I had been carrying, the entire thing would have been defused with one trigger pull, and saved the pit owner a bill for euthanasion. Now ... would I have been in trouble in your opinion? The cops got involved after we both went to the vet, they got photos of the knife and the site where it happened. As the cop is leaving, he said "I do have to turn this over to the D.A., because it was a stabbing .... but don't lose sleep". I never heard anything further about it.

    Since that instance, we've had a 10 year old child get a broken arm from a pit ... as well ... two phone workers up on a pole were attacked.

    I would believe ... the outcome would have been the same no matter knife or gun .... or am I wrong? It would have been bigger news for sure, even the stabbing made the paper.
    =================

    Another point I'm curious about (maybe should be separate thread) .... when to draw or not to draw. Do you have to wait until there is a definite threat coming right at you, or can you pull it and try to defuse the situation if the other person has a weapon, even though is not an imminent danger?

    I'd hate to get in trouble for wielding a gun ... my guess is it is situational and would be a tough call no matter what.


    thanks
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    The laws on this are different in each state, so you should probably post it in the proper state section.

    I walk my dog, german shepherd/rottweiler mix, at night and I carry my pistol just in case of another dog attacking us. I feel that if the dog presents a threat to you or your dog, you shouldn't have any problems if you shoot the aggressive dog. I wouldn't hesitate for a second if it was the choice between my dog or their dog. If they can't train them or control them, then I will end the threat to my animal.

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    Most self defense laws state something to the effect that you have the right to use deadly force when confronted with the threat of grave bodily harm; they DO NOT specify the species of an attacker. I carry whenever I go for a walk/bike ride and have come close to drawing (ie hand on weapon, didn't pull it) when charged aggresively. You might want to check your State's statutes though, I've heard that some require that an animal actually has to bite before you can shoot, others don't have this 'first bite' rule.
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    You should check with the laws of your State. If the dog were attacking a person, self-defense laws of your State would probably protect you. However, since the dog was attacking what most State laws consider "property," you might have still faced charges had you used a firearm. Those charges wouldn't be assault (or any other crime that outlaws violence on another person), but you could be charged with brandishing (or equivalent) and discharging a firearm within corporate limits (or equivalent).

    If you want to be able to protect your pets with a firearm, know your State and local laws on the matter.

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    You said in your yard...No brainer...Shoot it.
    If I see a Pitbull, Doberman, Rottweiler, or
    any kind like that I shoot them on sight.
    Life is tough, its tougher when your stupid.

    http://www.itsnotthelaw.com

    Feds: U.C.C. 1-308, State: U.C.C. 1-207, Both: U.C.C. 1-103.6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch00 View Post
    You said in your yard...No brainer...Shoot it.
    If I see a Pitbull, Doberman, Rottweiler, or
    any kind like that
    I shoot them on sight.
    Let’s start blaming the owners instead of the animal that has not been properly raised and trained by their owners. You will need a little more than I seen "said breed" and shot the animal because I believe all the media nonsense and this believe is not based in reality. No matter the breed, if they animals are not trained they can and will cause harm to people or other pets. The absolute hate i read about the so called dangerous breeds is more misinformed than those ant-gun idiots. My American Staffordshire Terriers is by far the best dog I have ever owned and is well trained. So i hope before you go "killing them on sight” you have a real threat before you take a family pets life for no other reason than your irrational opine. Just like a child if you a horrible parent you can’t expect that child to have morals or values, that your child will not be a problem for society.
    Last edited by zack991; 03-22-2011 at 05:21 PM.
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    Shooting the animal would not necessarily be "blaming" it. It would likely be a matter of perceiving a threat and neutralizing it.

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    Regular Member LaCrosseKevin's Avatar
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    mark-in-texas & Butch, good points.

    I don't really know why people post answers and say "check your laws in your state". If YOU don't know, just don't post that ...<?> I realize laws vary technically, I was just looking for general input ... I'm not building a court case.

    Being I never got contacted by the D.A. for a stabbing, I'd have to think I as well would have gotten into no trouble for shooting the animal in a controlled manner (making sure the projectile went into the ground).
    ============
    Zack, certain dogs are inherently violent and have a propensity to attack for whatever reason runs through their head. The statistics do not blame the owner/s at all ... just the breed/s. Wolf mixes, rotts, pits .. at the top of the statistics, it's fact.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Kevin, welcome aboard.
    If you want to learn more about WI laws, go to www.wisconsincarry.org
    Hover over the "legal" tab in the upper right, then click on "Wisconsin legal citations".
    Page down, & you'll have links to PDFs of the laws, as well as some cases.

    On another note, if you'd like to meet some of us in WI, there's a WI Carry annual meeting coming up, posted in the WI forum. I don't look for events over your way, since I'm on the other corner of the state, but browse the WI section for announced meet-ups.

    As to the dog attack, I think if you could get the DA to believe you were in fear of the dog attacking you or your dad, possibly because of the viciousness or suddenness of the attack on your dog, you probably wouldn't get cited for shooting it. (IANAL)

    How did your dog come out of the encounter? Did the other owner pay for all the vet attention needed?
    Last edited by MKEgal; 03-20-2011 at 08:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaCrosseKevin View Post
    ...I don't really know why people post answers and say "check your laws in your state"...
    I dunno...maybe because folks should check with the laws of their State. Listening to what folks say the law says on a message is a dangerous practice. Well-meaning folks have been telling me for 55 years that OC is illegal. When I CHECKED with the law of my State, I found out otherwise.

    One more reason: If someone asks whether they should or should not do something, it is more appropriate for them to ask in their State forum as laws vary widely from State to State, and advising folks to check with their State law is a tad less rude than "Why don't you post this in your State forum, where there is a chance that someone knows the law in your jurisdiction?"

    Moving on.

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    Totally agree with Eye95!! "Check the laws in your state!"
    You solicited general advice from a divergent population; we have our own opinions, case law and statutory requirements based on our locations. However, it is entirely OUR responsibility to know OUR laws; to do OUR own due diligence. The reason I said that is simple. I know Texas law on the matter, I do not know Wisconsin law. That's your job.
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  12. #12
    Regular Member LaCrosseKevin's Avatar
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    Red face Good stuff

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Kevin, welcome aboard.

    (IANAL)

    How did your dog come out of the encounter? Did the other owner pay for all the vet attention needed?
    Thank you.
    The abbreviation above made me :/ ... LOL
    My dog came out sore, but alive. Their vet was a mistake to take it to, as no care was given in a professional state. If I had laid out a gold card for them to charge, it would have gone much different ... come to find out the other owner was broke, so my dog did not get proper care until I got home. I cut his hair so I could see any skin breaks, then treated those. He was sore for about 4 days, he'd shake his head side-to-side and yelp in pain.... but we survived. I'd love to see a law where if you have a pit, you -have- to show proof of insurance to get it licensed,,, and if you have a pit that is not licensed, you are leveled upon severely.

    The owner had begged me to not involve police, and I was being Mr.NiceGuy and told her so long as we went to a vet and she paid for care, I'd be happy. The vet called the cops, heh. They could have shaved his wound area, and given me some antibiotics ... but there was no money to be made so, BYE. Central Animal Hospital Inc
    840 2nd Ave S, Onalaska, WI 54650 (I do not recommend them, obviously) My regular vet was LaCrosse vet on 16, and they were a bit pricey but always did a thorough job professionally.
    ________________________
    You can sure tell the wise-asses on here, eh? Way to welcome the new guy lol

    Has been a while since I've been on a forum and forgot what a hodge podge of personalities are around.

    OK, OK guys, I'll post this in my state forum, hell, mod, can you just move this entire post over there, I'd appreciate it. I feel like I'm stepping on someones toes LOL

    So it seems, we hang in our states forum areas and everything is A-OK ? *sigh* (lol)
    __________________________
    OH ... and cabbitone ... thank you for the general key answer and keypoint, in that the dog is just 'property' in the laws eyes, so, a jury may have a problem with using a firearm in that instance.

    Thanks ! I sure miss old Buck. Had to put him down April 1 of 2008 due to hip problems.
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    Smile oh ... a funny side-note

    The funny part of this is .. when this attack happened, I had a dog bite case in the works where I had been bit by another dog, while trying to pry a neighbors dog off my dog and got my thumb chomped good.

    That case dragged on for years, I eventually won ... they strong-armed me into a settlement since I couldn't afford to pay the attorney other than on contingency. I got a couple grand out of it, the amount of my original demand letter to the other dogs owner.

    I wouldn't have sued if he had taken it more serious, apologized and offered -something- ... but he was such a pompous ass, I got a lawyer and drug it out for years. My lawyer said his costs were over $10k ... I'll take that as a win, and hopefully he'll learn from it. I told him in the end, if he would have handled it better in the beginning it would have never gone that far. heh ... he probably is still an ass.
    ---------------
    (when my lawyer saw the above article in the paper, we emailed back and forth about it, and he said maybe dogs weren't my thing, I laughed and told him I'd stick to an aquarium heh)
    Last edited by LaCrosseKevin; 03-22-2011 at 01:53 AM. Reason: added part after partition

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    Regular Member Nevada carrier's Avatar
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    In my state, Nevada, you are not permitted to use lethal force in defense of property. Animals are considered property. You are permitted to use lethal force in defense of your self or others when a reasonable person would believe there was a real threat of death or serious bodily injury. If a dog attacks your animal and you use lethal force, You would likely only face some charge related to the unlawful discharge of a firearm at worst, and under the right circumstances, it could be dropped if you could show that no other option was left besides dispatching the attacking animal. Witness statements, or documentation of the injuries your animal sustained

    I have drawn my firearm on a charging dog only once, the dog had been allowed to run outside off of a leash by it's owner more than once. On this occasion, the owner got control of the animal before I squeezed the trigger, and never again was the dog seen off a leash. The funny part was the animals owner was so pissed that I almost shot his dog he went to the managers office to tell them I drew my firearm. Instead of coming after me for the incident, they told him it seemed reasonable to defend myself against a large dog charging uncontrolled, then fined him $25 for violating the leash policy.

    As I understand it, the dog's owner even called to police because I drew my firearm. When he told them the details of the incident, they told him that they could not formulate probable cause to send an officer. They told him that his description of events did not indicate illegal activity but gave him the option to file an incident report with the desk sergeant at a command office.
    Last edited by Nevada carrier; 03-22-2011 at 09:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaCrosseKevin View Post
    mark-in-texas & Butch, good points.


    Zack, certain dogs are inherently violent and have a propensity to attack for whatever reason runs through their head. The statistics do not blame the owner/s at all ... just the breed/s. Wolf mixes, rotts, pits .. at the top of the statistics, it's fact.
    Bite statistics are difficult to obtain accurately. Dogs that are referred to as “pit bulls” in statistical reports actually are a variety of breeds and mixes all lumped together under the “pit bull” heading. Also, many people have a difficult time properly identifying a true Pit Bull, so added to the statistics are those dogs that have been misidentified. Considering these factors, the actual number of attacks attributable to American Pit Bull Terriers is considerably lower than represented.The biggest flaw in CDC statistics, and certainly the one that causes the most grief, is that the “breed” categorized by the CDC as “pit bull-type dog” does not exist. Nor is “pit bull” a breed recognized by any breed registry. Housed beneath the catch-all designation “pit bull” are at least twenty (and as many as 35) different breeds of dog. Lump twenty breeds of dog together as one breed and you will certainly have what looks like a breed problem as relates to dog bites and dog-bite-related fatalities! What you’ll also have is a massive skewing of the statistical data rendering the findings erroneous and misleading.

    Worse, a majority of the CDC’s statistics were taken from media reports of dog bites or fatalities which are notorious for being inaccurate, particularly as regards “pit bulls.” And yes, American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers are often referred to by the slang term “pit bull,” but were these the actual breeds responsible for the attacks? Probably not since a slew of other breeds of dog — like Presa Canarios, Cane Corsos, Spanish Alanos, Rhodesian Ridgebacks, Bandogs, Dogues Brasileiros, Dogo Argentino, Guatemalan Bull Terriers, American Bulldogs, Boxers, Bull Mastiffs, Bull Terriers, English Bulldogs, and even Labradors, Rottweilers, Akitas, and Chow Chows — have also been labeled “pit bulls.”

    Dogs, as a species, do not perform behaviors “just because”. There are always reasons for behavior, and when aggression becomes a problem the reasons can be such things as improper handling, lack of socialization or training, a misreading of dog behavior by the owner, or, rarely, disease. Aggression, when it presents in pet dogs, follows specific patterns. First occur warning signs, then more warning signs, and finally, when those signs are continually ignored or misinterpreted, the dog resorts to using its teeth. When an owner is startled by a sudden, aggressive outburst, it is because they have been unaware of problems that were brewing. This is true of all dogs, not just Pit Bulls. Pit Bulls, indeed no dogs, “turn” on their owners.

    It is reported on temperament tests conducted by the American Temperament Test Society that Pit Bulls had a passing rate of 82% or better -- compared to only 77% of the general dog population. These temperament tests consist of putting a dog through a series of unexpected situations, some involving strangers. Any signs of unprovoked aggression or panic in these situations result in failure of the test. The achievement of Pit Bulls in this study disproves that they are inherently aggressive and evil time bombs. (Please visit ATTS.org)

    Just like you don't believe all the media hype on tv about evil guns, why would you do the same for this hot button issue. Again just like gun banners, people who "hate" certain breeds are just spewing off headlines, one liners with half facts, making up facts or they never did the research themselves. The facts simply don't match up to the nonsense they the media spews. Just like I can go onto the brady website and quote their "facts" but when you look into the reality of their facts and they are all unfounded.
    Last edited by zack991; 03-22-2011 at 05:30 PM.
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    Zack

    I have a pair of litter mates that are Labrador/fence jumper crossbred mutts. 1 a spayed female and 1 a full male. They have just turned 5 y/o. The female has always been more aggressive than the male. He will probably still be acting like a puppy until he is too old to do anything. Her I am going to have to watch, even though she is regularly around other dogs and other people with out incident.


    Today I had a contractor come by to do an estimate for some repairs to a door that was recently busted in while I wasn't at home. She has met this particular contractor before without incident and she could have been reacting to the scruffy fellow with him. But I looked down and saw her in stalking mode. Head down, tail up, eyes and ears forward, 1 front paw forward, 1 back and haunches bunched. No growl or bark and no forward movement, just on HIGH alert. I believe that if either person had made a sudden move toward the door, she would have gone through the glass and started chomping. If she had, Bubba would have had her back. He can bite a lot harder than she can.

    A responsible dog owner pays attention to how his animals react to different situations.

    I could have called her down, but all I had to do was put them in the back yard and I didn't have to get firm with them. They went easily. They don't react as strongly to protect me as they do my wife. I am the ALPHA male of my pack.
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    Regular Member LaCrosseKevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zack991 View Post
    Bite statistics are difficult to obtain accurately.
    Not really. If you've ever watched Judge Joe Brown, he always takes pit bull cases and makes excellent points about statistics and common sense. The pits have an enzyme imbalance that makes them aggressive over territory outside the people they know. So, if a telephone or other technician come to do work in the yard, or do a meter reading ... it's more than likely they will get in trouble if they entered and didn't see the pit.

    I've never seen poodle owners have to defend their breed as much as pit owners. If you need a tough dog, you need other means of defense such as martial arts or carry a gun. Pits are so terrible, you better have good insurance because it's just a matter of time until you have a bite case as a defendant. There's a way to solve that, don't have a pit. *shrug*

    I've been in instances other than the one above while biking and there is just no need for them.

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    That you mention insurance raises an interesting question.

    Is there an insurance company that offers dog-owner liability insurance whose premiums vary based upon breed? These guys are betting their money. They won't listen to rhetoric from either side of the issue. They will base premiums purely on statistical evidence of reality. If they charge higher premiums for pits, then that would be irrefutable evidence that pits present a greater danger. If pits fall near the middle of the pack (pun intended) in rates for liability insurance, then that would be irrefutable evidence that pits are just another breed.

    Based upon what I have heard from someone who deals with dog bite cases routinely, I suspect that the former is the case. However, my mind is open. Does someone know where to look for the numbers?

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    Unconfirmed as yet, BUT there seems to be a rather large problem with "Pit" bite reports. It seems many bite attacks are reported as "Pits/Pit type" when there wasn't one involved and may not have been any within a mile of the incident. I read where a Labrador bit some one and it was reported as a Pit attack. If that was accurate, it seems there may be a rather large hole in the statistics.

    Something to investigate if you are so inclined.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaCrosseKevin View Post
    I've never seen poodle owners have to defend their breed as much as pit owners. If you need a tough dog, you need other means of defense such as martial arts or carry a gun. Pits are so terrible, you better have good insurance because it's just a matter of time until you have a bite case as a defendant. There's a way to solve that, don't have a pit. *shrug*

    I've been in instances other than the one above while biking and there is just no need for them.
    Then I guess there's no need for police to have dogs either? Did you ever think that maybe people have "tough dogs", as you call them, to protect property? I have trained in martial arts for most of my life, I carry a gun and I have a dog to help protect my home and family when I'm at work. I guess I should take my dog out back and put him down because insurers list him as a dangerous breed and people with your attitude are afraid of him.

    I don't even own a "pit bull" and I find it distasteful that you call all pits bad dogs like anti gun people say guns cause crime and kill people in their sleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaCrosseKevin View Post
    mark-in-texas & Butch, good points.

    I don't really know why people post answers and say "check your laws in your state". If YOU don't know, just don't post that ...<?> I realize laws vary technically, I was just looking for general input ... I'm not building a court case.

    Being I never got contacted by the D.A. for a stabbing, I'd have to think I as well would have gotten into no trouble for shooting the animal in a controlled manner (making sure the projectile went into the ground).
    ============
    Zack, certain dogs are inherently violent and have a propensity to attack for whatever reason runs through their head. The statistics do not blame the owner/s at all ... just the breed/s. Wolf mixes, rotts, pits .. at the top of the statistics, it's fact.
    No they don't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaCrosseKevin View Post
    Not really. If you've ever watched Judge Joe Brown, he always takes pit bull cases and makes excellent points about statistics and common sense. The pits have an enzyme imbalance that makes them aggressive over territory outside the people they know. So, if a telephone or other technician come to do work in the yard, or do a meter reading ... it's more than likely they will get in trouble if they entered and didn't see the pit.

    I've never seen poodle owners have to defend their breed as much as pit owners. If you need a tough dog, you need other means of defense such as martial arts or carry a gun. Pits are so terrible, you better have good insurance because it's just a matter of time until you have a bite case as a defendant. There's a way to solve that, don't have a pit. *shrug*

    I've been in instances other than the one above while biking and there is just no need for them.
    Wha!???

    Get real. Most dogs ARE territorial. It doesn't matter which breed.

    Go find some authoritative source for that "enzyme deficiency" allegation. YOU are the first that I have EVER heard even try to mention something like that. It isn't a problem with a breed of dogs. It is a problem with owners of dogs.


    Some of the dogs confiscated from Michael Vick's dog fighting operation are now licensed therapy dogs. They used to be fighting dogs.

    I own a pit/golden retriever cross, and he is a fantastic dog. My son owns a pit/mini border collie cross, and she is an excellent dog. Neither has shown aggression towards others, except for being territorial, as MOST dogs are.
    Last edited by wrightme; 03-28-2011 at 12:51 AM.
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    Regular Member LaCrosseKevin's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by irish52084 View Post
    that you call all pits bad dogs like anti gun people say guns cause crime and kill people in their sleep.
    lol , apples, oranges

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
    Most dogs ARE territorial. It doesn't matter which breed.
    Yes, it does matter which breed. If you were faced with a miniature whatever, vs. a large pit ... which one would make their point better to you about not entering their yard? lol

    If you have a pit around your kids, well ... that isn't the best thing to do ... to put it politely.

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    Regular Member LaCrosseKevin's Avatar
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    I know you'll keep this up, and I can quote law all day & night, even as boring as it is ... but the stats are out there as fact. If the head is massive and the jaws are huge, I'd say that's a pit or some derivative of the breed.

    http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/stat...stlikelytobite
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    """In all fairness, therefore, it must be noted that:

    * Any dog, treated harshly or trained to attack, may bite a person. Any dog can be turned into a dangerous dog. The owner or handler most often is responsible for making a dog into something dangerous.

    * An irresponsible owner or dog handler might create a situation that places another person in danger by a dog, without the dog itself being dangerous, as in the case of the Pomeranian that killed the infant (see above).

    * Any individual dog may be a good, loving pet, even though its breed is considered to be potentially dangerous. A responsible owner can win the love and respect of a dog, no matter its breed. One cannot look at an individual dog, recognize its breed, and then state whether or not it is going to attack.
    """
    ____________________________________________

    Now ... ok, so any dog can be a loving pet, or an agressive dog. Bottom line, which one would you feel most threatened by? Simple answer.

    Why, when this loving pet that just got away from the owner ... when it came upon my dog in MY yard, did it feel the need to bite and pin my dog? It's the fight INSTINCT, some say it's an enzyme and I agree with that, some say it was bred for that and is how it was treated. All very tough to prove. Bottom line is ... if any pit comes near me, I'll be more wary than a poodle.
    ===========================================
    http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php?p=453188
    (if you can read this ... I find it humorous how these posters seem to not be very educated, yet don't like what a judge thinks) lol
    Last edited by LaCrosseKevin; 03-28-2011 at 01:51 AM. Reason: added something

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