Situational awareness and how I failed at it.

irish52084 · Mar 20, 2011

Wednesday, I think it was Wednesday, I was at the South Hill mall in Puyallup with a friend to grab some stuff for my sons birthday party and get some lunch.

We both ordered our food and waited for our orders to be called when I hear this lady saying "Sir, sir, hey". I thought she was about to tell me my gun was showing or something.

I turn to look at her and realize she's not talking to me and she's carrying her son who's maybe 2 years old. At this point I notice she's trying to get the attention of a security guard and that's when I hear her say "that guy just kicked my son in the head".

I turn to see who this guy is and I don't see anyone, so I start to wonder if this lady is a bit on the crazy side and maybe the guy just bumped into her son. Her son wasn't crying or bleeding and didn't seem to be distressed in any way.

At this point I'm beginning to think this lady is working some sort of scam and then my food order gets called and I go sit down.

This lady and a female security guard go into the bathrooms for a minute and I decide to sit facing them so I can see what's going on if there's going to be a "show".

A minute or so later, this guy in his 60's with the wrap around black sunglasses that men of his age are known to wear on occasion comes speed walking out of the bathrooms with the lady and the security guard in tow.

Two male security guards stand in his path and he proceeds to try and bowl right through them like they aren't even there, which results in him kind of bouncing off of them.

He then pushes the larger of the 2 male security guards. This is where it gets more interesting. The security guard he pushed grabs him by the arm and throws the guy to the ground with kind of a modified arm drag/Uchi Mata and the guy goes flying head over heels and smacks onto the tile floor.

I almost jumped out of my seat is was that impressive. I also kicked myself for not filming the whole thing on my phone to at least have what happened on video.
Security then cuffed him and waited for the police to show up.

I saw the cops talk to a few people who must have seen him kick the kid and overheard them talking about how strange the guy was acting so I assume he did kick the kid.

In the end, I couldn't believe I didn't see him kick the kid since it happened about 15 feet from me and then I failed again by not filming the incident.

Had I been paying more attention to my surroundings and had I seen him kick a 2 year old, I would have felt obligated to stop him from going anywhere. My friend and I were both armed, not that it mattered, and neither of us was paying enough attention to what was going on around us.

Kind of a little lesson in how important some of our other skills are rather than just how well we shoot a gun.

Sorry for the super long post.

HK_dave · Mar 20, 2011

you can't see everything...

SpyderTattoo · Mar 20, 2011

Brother, two helpful hints here. One, this has nothing to do with open carry, and Two, you need to use paragraphs.

gogodawgs · Mar 20, 2011

SpyderTattoo said:
Brother, two helpful hints here. One, this has nothing to do with open carry, and Two, you need to use paragraphs.

+1

Bill Starks · Mar 20, 2011

agree with the others...

http://lrs.ed.uiuc.edu/students/fwalters/para.html

HeesBonafide · Mar 20, 2011

2 points - don't lose the message...

People can argue that this isn't about OC, and I couldn't disagree more!

Maintaining a High degree of Situational Awareness (SA) goes hand in hand with pistol and holster. It is imperative to maintain this at ALL times, but even more when you are packing, so as to avoid being caught with your pants down (figuratively speaking).

I had a similar situation last spring that I posted about a guy coming up and banging on my window and I was disgusted with myself BECAUSE I let my guard down.

I chalk this up to another good citizen sharing that we all (as OC Community) can always improve our SA and this is a journey of a practive and not a destination.

Thanks for sharing.

SpyderTattoo · Mar 20, 2011

That's great... But the story still didn't have anything to do with open carry. There is a General Forum for this kind of thing. We're not trying to be mean, but sometimes newer members here need to be reminded of what the rules here are.

This forum does a superb job of policing itself. Sometimes some of us might come off as being a little harsh, but we're just trying to keep things on track. Believe me, many of us have dealt with this same kind of situation here before.

Try not to take this personally, but more like helpful criticism.

irish52084 · Mar 21, 2011

Yeah, I should have posted this in general discussion, I wasn't paying enough attention. I also should have double spaced my paragraphs. Believe it on not I did actually attempt to use some structure. lol

I'm not gonna get offended or bothered by people telling me I didn't break up my wall of text, cuz it's annoying to read. I am generally a stickler for rules and I should have known better than to post this outside of the general discussion section.

elixin77 · Mar 21, 2011

I find my SA entails me knowing and acknowledging general things, like the color of clothes, but not style; or the general placement of people; or if someone just made a rapid movement. I don't generally see the small stuff, like someone walking with a limp, or the logo on a shirt, etc etc, unless I study them for a couple seconds, which affects the rest of my SA.

If I was in your situation, I more than likely wouldn't have seen the altercation either. I probably would have noted that there were a couple people were this situation happened, but not taken note of what exactly happened. However, if someone moves faster than the people around him, or makes a sudden movement, then my eyes are reading that person like a book, until I'm satisfied that what he's doing isn't a threat in any way, shape, or form.

fire suppressor · Mar 21, 2011

Although one person on here dose not agree this story applies to open carry I could not disagree more. This is a open carry forum and it applies to everything open carry not just story's that take place from my guns point of view. A SA story involves every single open carrier everyday.
Thanks for sharing I know it is not easy to post a new thread when you feel a error has been made, it is a good reminder to us all. I'm not the biggest fan of bystanders filming altercations unless they involve the RP directly but that is a opinion and certainly nothing against you. Thanks for sharing

Gunslinger · Mar 21, 2011

irish52084 said:
Wednesday, I think it was Wednesday, I was at the South Hill mall in Puyallup with a friend to grab some stuff for my sons birthday party and get some lunch.

We both ordered our food and waited for our orders to be called when I hear this lady saying "Sir, sir, hey". I thought she was about to tell me my gun was showing or something.

I turn to look at her and realize she's not talking to me and she's carrying her son who's maybe 2 years old. At this point I notice she's trying to get the attention of a security guard and that's when I hear her say "that guy just kicked my son in the head".

I turn to see who this guy is and I don't see anyone, so I start to wonder if this lady is a bit on the crazy side and maybe the guy just bumped into her son. Her son wasn't crying or bleeding and didn't seem to be distressed in any way.

At this point I'm beginning to think this lady is working some sort of scam and then my food order gets called and I go sit down.

This lady and a female security guard go into the bathrooms for a minute and I decide to sit facing them so I can see what's going on if there's going to be a "show".

A minute or so later, this guy in his 60's with the wrap around black sunglasses that men of his age are known to wear on occasion comes speed walking out of the bathrooms with the lady and the security guard in tow.

Two male security guards stand in his path and he proceeds to try and bowl right through them like they aren't even there, which results in him kind of bouncing off of them.

He then pushes the larger of the 2 male security guards. This is where it gets more interesting. The security guard he pushed grabs him by the arm and throws the guy to the ground with kind of a modified arm drag/Uchi Mata and the guy goes flying head over heels and smacks onto the tile floor.

I almost jumped out of my seat is was that impressive. I also kicked myself for not filming the whole thing on my phone to at least have what happened on video.
Security then cuffed him and waited for the police to show up.

I saw the cops talk to a few people who must have seen him kick the kid and overheard them talking about how strange the guy was acting so I assume he did kick the kid.

In the end, I couldn't believe I didn't see him kick the kid since it happened about 15 feet from me and then I failed again by not filming the incident.

Had I been paying more attention to my surroundings and had I seen him kick a 2 year old, I would have felt obligated to stop him from going anywhere. My friend and I were both armed, not that it mattered, and neither of us was paying enough attention to what was going on around us.

Kind of a little lesson in how important some of our other skills are rather than just how well we shoot a gun.

Sorry for the super long post.

Wow. A Mall ninja can push a man in his 60's down. Real hero. Good thing there were two others for backup if the old guy got up. If in fact the guy didn't "kick" the child, he will be driving a new Mercedes soon. Battery against a person over 60 in many states is "special circumstances." It is in CO; not sure about WA. If so, it becomes a class 2 felony. So the Mall would be buying him the car; the hero Mall Stormtrooper would be vacationing at the state's expense. Be glad you weren't involved. If the woman was a wacko and you got involved you could be looking at a felony arrest. You saw nothing and had no affirmative defense for acting and would then be liable both civilly and criminally. If you even touched your gun, a case could be made for aggravated assault with special circumstances. And that would be bad juju.

sultan62 · Mar 21, 2011

Gunslinger said:
Wow. A Mall ninja can push a man in his 60's down. Real hero. Good thing there were two others for backup if the old guy got up. If in fact the guy didn't "kick" the child, he will be driving a new Mercedes soon. Battery against a person over 60 in many states is "special circumstances." It is in CO; not sure about WA. If so, it becomes a class 2 felony. So the Mall would be buying him the car; the hero Mall Stormtrooper would be vacationing at the state's expense. Be glad you weren't involved. If the woman was a wacko and you got involved you could be looking at a felony arrest. You saw nothing and had no affirmative defense for acting and would then be liable both civilly and criminally. If you even touched your gun, a case could be made for aggravated assault with special circumstances. And that would be bad juju.

Perhaps we read different stories, but I read about an older gentlemen assaulting the security guards.

irish52084 · Mar 21, 2011

Gunslinger said:
Wow. A Mall ninja can push a man in his 60's down. Real hero. Good thing there were two others for backup if the old guy got up. If in fact the guy didn't "kick" the child, he will be driving a new Mercedes soon. Battery against a person over 60 in many states is "special circumstances." It is in CO; not sure about WA. If so, it becomes a class 2 felony. So the Mall would be buying him the car; the hero Mall Stormtrooper would be vacationing at the state's expense. Be glad you weren't involved. If the woman was a wacko and you got involved you could be looking at a felony arrest. You saw nothing and had no affirmative defense for acting and would then be liable both civilly and criminally. If you even touched your gun, a case could be made for aggravated assault with special circumstances. And that would be bad juju.

The man refused to stop for security, tried to walk right through them and then shoved the security guard, so I don't see how the security guard taking him down is an issue.

The man may have been in his early 60's, but that is just a guess, he could have been much younger with salt and pepper hair. He wasn't physically frail from what I could tell.

As for me, I would not have gotten involved unless I saw him kick the kid. I certainly wouldn't have drawn my gun on him for it, but I would have made sure he didn't run away from what he had done if I had seen him do it. As it was, I didn't see him do anything and I didn't get involved.

I'd like to think, if it was my son that he kicked, I'd have been calm enough to get security to deal with him. I honestly don't think I'd would have though. Not that I'd shoot him or anything, but he'd probably have felt a lot worse than he did after that security guard tossed him.

Gunslinger · Mar 21, 2011

irish52084 said:
The man refused to stop for security, tried to walk right through them and then shoved the security guard, so I don't see how the security guard taking him down is an issue.

The man may have been in his early 60's, but that is just a guess, he could have been much younger with salt and pepper hair. He wasn't physically frail from what I could tell.

As for me, I would not have gotten involved unless I saw him kick the kid. I certainly wouldn't have drawn my gun on him for it, but I would have made sure he didn't run away from what he had done if I had seen him do it. As it was, I didn't see him do anything and I didn't get involved.

I'd like to think, if it was my son that he kicked, I'd have been calm enough to get security to deal with him. I honestly don't think I'd would have though. Not that I'd shoot him or anything, but he'd probably have felt a lot worse than he did after that security guard tossed him.

I'm not faulting you, and if it was my child things would have gotten unpleasant. However, unless he did it; if he did it but only the woman witnessed it--'he said she said'; if there is a special circumstances statute in WA; the guards had no authority to stop him unless "they" witnessed him do it. He would have been within his rights to resist an unlawful detention; he may have committed simple battery, they felonious battery. You cannot meet simple assault with aggravated or felonious assault which is what special circumstances entails. Lots of 'ifs' as you didn't actually see it happen--if it did.

eye95 · Mar 21, 2011

sultan62 said:
Perhaps we read different stories, but I read about an older gentlemen assaulting the security guards.

That's what I read.

I don't know the law where this happened, but, in Alabama, once the old man made contact with the security guards, they (as ordinary citizens) would be authorized to arrest him and to use as much force as the old man caused to be necessary to effect that arrest.

I'd have to double check, but once the mother related the assault to the security guards and solicited their help, they may have, at that point, been authorized to do a citizen's arrest. Like I said, I'd have to double check that one.

Gunslinger · Mar 21, 2011

sultan62 said:
Perhaps we read different stories, but I read about an older gentlemen assaulting the security guards.

Resisting unlawful detention by other than a cop is an affirmative defense for battery--and in some cases so is it for the use of deadly force, viz., stopping a kidnapping attempt. Simple assault, met by felonious assault is defensible, given a special circumstances law. The old guy may be guilty; with a SC law making the response felonious, the Mall Ninja is going down, too. No different than police pounding some guy who committed a misdemeanor and being charged for excessive force. And cops have a lot more room in this area than some $6.50 an hour Mall security guy. I'd like to see how this shakes out.

Gunslinger · Mar 21, 2011

eye95 said:
That's what I read.

I don't know the law where this happened, but, in Alabama, once the old man made contact with the security guards, they (as ordinary citizens) would be authorized to arrest him and to use as much force as the old man caused to be necessary to effect that arrest.

I'd have to double check, but once the mother related the assault to the security guards and solicited their help, they may have, at that point, been authorized to do a citizen's arrest. Like I said, I'd have to double check that one.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!! Simple assault cannot be met with felonious assault in AL, WA or Eastern, Southcentral Texas. Unless they witnessed the alleged activity, they or you have no authority to detain under any so called 'citizen's arrest' provision. If they do, they assume complete liability for their actions and his attempting to escape unlawful detention is completely justified--even to the use of reasonable force--perhaps even deadly force against disparity of strength. Their response is not. His word against hers, based on the info we have right now. In a court of law, she loses. And so does the mall and the hero ninjas.

eye95 · Mar 21, 2011

Gunslinger said:
ARRRRRRRRRRRRHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!! Simple assault cannot be met with felonious assault in AL, WA or Eastern, Southcentral Texas. Unless they witnessed the alleged activity, they or you have no authority to detain under any so called 'citizen's arrest' provision. If they do, they assume complete liability for their actions and his attempting to escape unlawful detention is completely justified--even to the use of reasonable force--perhaps even deadly force against disparity of strength. Their response is not. His word against hers, based on the info we have right now. In a court of law, she loses. And so does the mall and the hero ninjas.

Simple assault is not a concept in AL law.

In effecting a citizen's arrest, any assault can be met with a reasonable level of force to stop it. Logically speaking, that will be slightly more force than was presented. If the BG keeps resisting, the levels of force used will, naturally, ratchet up, until either the criminal stops resisting or the level of force passes the "felony assault" line (even though it would not be a felony as it is authorized under law) and possibly continues up to deadly force.

I have read the statute in AL numerous times. Shall I quote it for you?

Oh, and ARGH, back atcha, matey!

gogodawgs · Mar 21, 2011

SpyderTattoo said:
Brother, two helpful hints here. One, this has nothing to do with open carry, and Two, you need to use paragraphs.

gogodawgs said:
+1

SpyderTattoo said:
That's great... But the story still didn't have anything to do with open carry. There is a General Forum for this kind of thing. We're not trying to be mean, but sometimes newer members here need to be reminded of what the rules here are.

This forum does a superb job of policing itself. Sometimes some of us might come off as being a little harsh, but we're just trying to keep things on track. Believe me, many of us have dealt with this same kind of situation here before.

Try not to take this personally, but more like helpful criticism.

Apparently we were correct Spyder... thread moved.

OldCurlyWolf · Mar 21, 2011

Gunslinger said:
Wow. A Mall ninja can push a man in his 60's down. Real hero. Good thing there were two others for backup if the old guy got up. If in fact the guy didn't "kick" the child, he will be driving a new Mercedes soon. Battery against a person over 60 in many states is "special circumstances." It is in CO; not sure about WA. If so, it becomes a class 2 felony. So the Mall would be buying him the car; the hero Mall Stormtrooper would be vacationing at the state's expense. Be glad you weren't involved. If the woman was a wacko and you got involved you could be looking at a felony arrest. You saw nothing and had no affirmative defense for acting and would then be liable both civilly and criminally. If you even touched your gun, a case could be made for aggravated assault with special circumstances. And that would be bad juju.

You are totally ignoring some of the "testimony" a non partisan observer. The man was in escape mode and he assaulted the security guard. In addition you are going places with you inane comments that the OP didn't even start to go. Look before you jump and you aren't so like to land in the prickly pear patch.:cuss:

Situational awareness and how I failed at it.

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