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Situational awareness and how I failed at it.

irish52084

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Jun 26, 2010
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285
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Puyallup< WA
If we could, let's get this back on topic.

I was trying to use a situation I encountered to point out that being aware of our surroundings is as important as our gun handling skills. I think awareness is sometimes overlooked for the sexier topics of gear selection and firearms manipulation.
 

Gunslinger

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Free, Colorado, USA
You are totally ignoring some of the "testimony" a non partisan observer. The man was in escape mode and he assaulted the security guard. In addition you are going places with you inane comments that the OP didn't even start to go. Look before you jump and you aren't so like to land in the prickly pear patch.:cuss:

Cite the 'testimony' I'm ignoring by an observer who saw the man kick the child. Facts not in evidence. I don't make "inane ('void of sense or intelligence') comments." When I offer a suggestion of other criminal or civil liability, I do so from fact, generally quoting either RSA or case law. I mentioned "special circumstances" which are a rule of law extenuating a "simple" misdemeanor into a class of felony and exists here in CO. Would you like the RSA citation? I also said I didn't know if WA had this statute. Upon research, I see that they don't except in case of assault involving sexual contact. That renders my suggestion of felony response moot. I also carefully stated to the OP "I'm not faulting you, and if it was my child things would have gotten unpleasant." Failing more actual information, a determination of guilt cannot be formed. As to Eye's comment, I fully accept he speaks from authority on AL law, which would mean they also do not have "special circumstances" with respect to assault.
Until someone can supply updated facts, not BS nonexistant "testimony of a non partisan ('an adherent, often biased, of a party or cause.' I believe you mean 'participant') observer," I will borrow from my friend Eye:

Moving on
 
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Gunslinger

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Simple assault is not a concept in AL law.

In effecting a citizen's arrest, any assault can be met with a reasonable level of force to stop it .............................ONLY IF IT IS A FELONY ARREST........................... Logically speaking, that will be slightly more force than was presented. If the BG keeps resisting, the levels of force used will, naturally, ratchet up, until either the criminal stops resisting or the level of force passes the "felony assault" line (even though it would not be a felony as it is authorized under law) and possibly continues up to deadly force.

I have read the statute in AL numerous times. Shall I quote it for you?

Oh, and ARGH, back atcha, matey!

"Simple assault" is a Common Law term which I like to use because Common Law frames things in an easier to understand manner for non-legal types. In AL, it is misdemeanor assault. Be careful of framing "stops resisting" with a legal use of felony battery. And nowhere can you use deadly force against a resisting subject who has only committed a misdemeanor level crime when making a so called "citizen's arrest."YOU CANNOT MAKE A CITIZEN'S ARREST FOR NON-FELONIES. Resisting can be squirming and thrashing your arms. Unless the resisting moves to felony level--he picks up a baseball bat, you cannot use unreasonable (read felonious) force against him. Using deadly force against an unarmed person you are attempting to arrest will get you a voluntary manslaughter charge--yes, in Alabama, if the crime is a misdemeanor. If there is a disparity in force, sometimes an affirmative defense in using elevated levels of force, you have the duty to retreat if you can. Again, I'm talking about someone who has only committed a non-felony. And a non-cop.

AL RSA 13A-3-27
(g) A private person acting on his own account is justified in using physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to effect an arrest or to prevent the escape from custody of an arrested person whom he reasonably believes has committed a felony and who in fact has committed that felony, but he is justified in using deadly physical force for the purpose only when he reasonably believes it necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force.


Even a cop in AL cannot use deadly force against one who is only charged with a misdemeanor, op cit, supra.
 
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eye95

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In Alabama, an individual may effect a citizen's arrest for any offense committed in his presence or for any felony, whether or not it was committed in his presence. Kicking a child in the head is a felony. If the perpetrator resists arrest, force may be used to stop that resistance. If the perp continues to resist, there will be escalation. Therefore, the arrestor can justifiably (under both self-defense laws and citizen's arrest laws) escalate the level of force he uses to a reasonable level to overcome the level of force from the BG.

It is possible (not likely, but possible) that the escalation proceeds to the point where the arrestor feels that life or limb is in danger. Under AL self-defense law, he may use deadly force to protect his life or limb.

In the case at hand, the level of force used by the arrestor was not an unreasonable response to both the attempt by the suspected felon to flee the scene and his attempted use of force to do so.

(BTW, the citizen's arrest scenarios have been discussed extensively at ALOC with citations of the relevant AL laws. One quirk of AL law is that it is not unlawful to resist a citizen's arrest, which could result in lawful escalation from both parties until someone ends up lawfully dead. This case would be one just like was discussed: A felony was committed outside the view of the arrestor and was over by the time the arrest was effected. The arrestor could legally use force. The perp could claim self-defense in responding to that force. Rinse. Repeat. The cycle stops when the BG stops resisting, the arrestor gives up, or someone dies--lawfully.)
 

Gunslinger

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In Alabama, an individual may effect a citizen's arrest for any offense committed in his presence or for any felony, whether or not it was committed in his presence.


Cite? That's contradictory to AL RSA 13A-3-27. Wouldn't be the first time statutes seemed to contradict themselves, but I'd like to read it. My citation would seem to preclude the use of 'any' force for a non-felony and only bestow the power for felonies.

From a friend at Maxwell, AFB:

In Alabama, citizen's arrests are almost unheard of. You go down to the PD and file a warrant. Detaining anyone for something less than a Class A felony is likely to get you put in jail for false imprisonment. I'm not sure an Alabama officer would even know how to deal with a citizen's arrest.

Found it. ALA CODE § 15-10-7 : Alabama Code - Section 15-10-7: ARRESTS BY PRIVATE PERSONS
This is from 1852 and I would bet a large sum case law has altered its original intent. Try to make a CA on a jaywalker. It also does NOT specify force being allowed, as does my cite. When I get a slow period, I'll have to look up 'Bama case law.
 
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eye95

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One law permits the citizen's arrest. The other permits the use of force when doing a citizen's arrest for a felony. Together, they allow the arrest and the use of force to effect the arrest. The only problem would be thinking that kicking a child in the head is not a felony.

Again, this is AL law, not the law in the State of the OP. I'll leave that to someone who has reviewed the law on citizen's arrests in that State.
 

Gunslinger

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One law permits the citizen's arrest. The other permits the use of force when doing a citizen's arrest for a felony. Together, they allow the arrest and the use of force to effect the arrest. The only problem would be thinking that kicking a child in the head is not a felony.

Again, this is AL law, not the law in the State of the OP. I'll leave that to someone who has reviewed the law on citizen's arrests in that State.

But---I don't see any justification in AL to use force when performing a CA for a misdemeanor. Seems like a major omission, as the law is clear on a felony. Bottom line is that a CA is a bad idea in general unless you are the party against whom the crime was committed.
 

eye95

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But---I don't see any justification in AL to use force when performing a CA for a misdemeanor. Seems like a major omission, as the law is clear on a felony. Bottom line is that a CA is a bad idea in general unless you are the party against whom the crime was committed.

Once again, this only matters if one thinks that kicking a child in the head is not a felony.
 

rotorhead

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Sep 18, 2010
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862
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FL
If we could, let's get this back on topic.

I was trying to use a situation I encountered to point out that being aware of our surroundings is as important as our gun handling skills. I think awareness is sometimes overlooked for the sexier topics of gear selection and firearms manipulation.

Great points and thanks for sharing. We all get caught sleepwalking here and there. Although no one can be on high alert at all times, this does serve to remind us to remain aware of our surroundings, especially in public places with higher concentrations of people.
 

irish52084

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Jun 26, 2010
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Puyallup< WA
Alleged. Still really want to see some follow-up stories on this.

I don't think there are going to be any follow-up stories on this. I was there when it happened, but did not see the alleged kick. This is not something that would have made the news. I kept my eyes and ears open for a few days after it happened just to see if anything came up in the news, but didn't notice anything.
 

eye95

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Alleged. Still really want to see some follow-up stories on this.

Of course it is alleged. It is always alleged until conviction. The man was accused of a felony. That would allow the citizen's arrest (at least in the jurisdiction of which I have been discussing).
 

Gunslinger

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I don't think there are going to be any follow-up stories on this. I was there when it happened, but did not see the alleged kick. This is not something that would have made the news. I kept my eyes and ears open for a few days after it happened just to see if anything came up in the news, but didn't notice anything.

Thanks for the update. It appears no charges were filed, but I would guess it would be a news item if they were. Child kicked; man fights with security, and so on. Assuming a slow news day, of course.
 
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