How one person handled a LEO encounter

yah he on this forum.

I didn't know if he was on or not. A shame he never makes the OC get togethers....

Thats me

Yeah thats was interesting. Like I said i the video I only got a little bit of it on video But for those who would like to make a sunshine law request I will be uploading the video of the Franklin County undercover cops liscense plate number. I'm sure that would help with a request.

Hi usmcbess,

I thought that was you from another video I happened across on youtube. I went through your channel to find it but eventually found it under your OpenCarryMissouri channel.

You handle yourself calmly when encountered by police and I thank you for sharing them online.

I hope this is appropriate to ask in this thread, but in your Open carry incident 2 video, they said the reason they had to ID you was Federal law to make sure you were old enough to carry a handgun.

Did you research that? Call the FBI? lol. I thought there was only a federally mandated minimum age for purchase, not carry. From reading the comments for that video I assume you gave your information to avoid being taken in for fingerprinting, even if it was unlawful.

I probably would have too, although being named in a police report isn't appealing either. If they're demanding it after you ask if required, I don't think I would resist any longer either, unless I felt financially and mentally prepared to be detained and resolve it in court.

At the end they said be careful, some cities have ordinances requiring you to carry ID if over 16, that's crazy!

usmcbess said:

Yeah thats was interesting. Like I said i the video I only got a little bit of it on video But for those who would like to make a sunshine law request I will be uploading the video of the Franklin County undercover cops liscense plate number. I'm sure that would help with a request.

Click to expand...

I hope you don't mind if I posted the video here, I thought you conducted yourself very well, as did the LEOs. I hope you'll come to soem of the OC events here in STL Co.

No offense to you usmcbess, but I've never understood the whole 'cop watching' phenomena. To me, it just seems like you're looking for cops to harass you.

OC for ME said:

Never make eye contact with police officers, always look down, they like that. If you look into their eyes they will think you are a threat to them. Police officers usually do not like self confident citizens, they prefer passive-subservient citizens.

Click to expand...

I have interacted with officers to whom that assessment would apply. I have interacted with officers for whom that assessment is an unfounded insult. I wish folks here would not generalize.

I've never had that problem when dealing with the police and looking them in the eye.

OC for ME said:

Never make eye contact with police officers, always look down, they like that. If you look into their eyes they will think you are a threat to them. Police officers usually do not like self confident citizens, they prefer passive-subservient citizens.

Click to expand...

I don't have a problem looking anyone in the eye, especially cops. Nothing conveys "you don't intimidate me" better.

Any encounter with a LEO, good/bad LEO, it doesn't matter, you need to have extream caution with because you don't know what you're getting yet. Now don't take the word "Caution" to mean be submissive. I mean you need to treat any conversation as an interogation. Give as little info as possible. I am prepared to deal with any LEO, good/bad and based on how I handle it, it poses the possibility of causing legal action against me that I am confident I would come out the winner.

That is the thing here folks. If you know you are breaking no law, you know you are somewhere where OC is authorized, as well as firearms, and you get unlawfully arrested you are going to have to take one for the team for the sake of OC. You want to keep it, then take it, so to speak. Besides, if you come out on top and you were wrongfully arrested, I'm not gonna accept an appology and walk away. I'm getting something out of it for time wasted that I could have been working. "Oh, it's a Saturday." Hey I could be working. Time wasted. At least get back enough to pay the attorney.

I like examples so here are a couple:

LEO: "Hey fella', need to talk to you. Why are you walking around with a gun on your holster"
Me: "Is there a problem with that?"
LEO: "Yeah, you have a gun on your hip out in the open."
Me: "That's a problem?"
LEO: "Some people have an issue with that and you're making people nervous."

And that can go on and on and on and he can spew opinon after opinion. So then we get to the ID.

LEO: "You got your ID on you?"
Me: "What are you investigating?"
LEO: "I need to make sure you are not a felon"
Me: "What makes you think I'm a felon?"
LEO: "That's why I need your ID, to make sure you are not"
Me: "Well Officer, my name is _(fill in the blank)_, and that should be enough for your investigation, now if you please, I'll be on my way."

Now this is where it can get dicy. You see I would turn to walk away and he might try to keep ahold of the situation, but I am prepared to, at this point get a little more direct with my statements.

"Am I being detained?"
if yes then I ask
"What Crime are you investigating?"
That is a deliberate statment, must say "WHAT CRIME" because there is not one.
If the subject is you and he is investigating you for walking I'm going to roll the dice right here.
"I have givin you all that I am lawfully required to give, if I am not being arrested or detained, I am going to be on my way." Walk AWAY. If at this point I pissed him off and got arrested for whatever reason, I'm ready to take it for the team on that one. Especially if I have a V recorder.

That's my gameplan. Thoughts?

Thoughts? Your plan involves talking too much. If the officer is initiating the conversation you need to find out if it's a tier one stop by asking if you're free to go. Go read Ohio v Robinette. If you talk freely and are arrested it'll be found you consented to talking and whatever you said raised the officer's suspicions to probable cause.

If you're free to go then walk away.

If you're not free to walk away (after several AIFTG questions) then verbally decline consent to search. Demand a lawyer before answering any questions. Keep your trap shut.

There are few experts on 2a and 4a law so don't say you understand all 55 words of the Miranda warning. The less you say keeps more of your of rights in tact and limits the power of those arresting you.

smn said:

Thoughts? Your plan involves talking too much.

Click to expand...

Ah but look closely and ignore my spelling/grammar, what exactly do I plan to tell the officer? Nothing. I never answer a question. The ONLY info I plan to give is my name right before I plan to walk away.

I'm talking, but everything ends with a "?". So I never made a statement.

Your plan works if the cop follows your script, which is highly unlikely. All encounters are different and up to you to handle them appropriately, whatever that may entail.

I agree It's MY script. But, the point I was getting at was while still engaging, I do not share any of MY Opinions, I don't share any of MY information, and I don't give him what he is asking for but I still reply to him in a manner that does further the conversation.

LEO: "You have a permit?"
Me: "What makes you think I don't have a permit?"

Not:

LEO: "What color is the sky?"
Me: "I like pinapple"

Continue the conversation, answer the question, but, don't answer the question.

mspgunner said:

I hope you don't mind if I posted the video here, I thought you conducted yourself very well, as did the LEOs. I hope you'll come to soem of the OC events here in STL Co.

Click to expand...

I dont mind at all. It was actually very flattering. I am going to post a link to the small amount of video I did shoot during this incident to my youtube page. The video's dont show any of the officer interactions but they do show where I was standing and the undercover narcotics officers liscense plate for anyone who wants to do a sunshine request.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15lhdD_RYOA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUUAcQjx6CU

StevenSTL said:

No offense to you usmcbess, but I've never understood the whole 'cop watching' phenomena. To me, it just seems like you're looking for cops to harass you.

Click to expand...

I partially agree, and partially disagree. He does admit towards the end he's "cop-watching." If they're going about their business in accordance with the law, I am as inclined to let them do so without following them around with a camera as I would hope they would be as inclined to do if I were going about my business in accordance with the law while OCing.

I mean, seriously turnabout is not only fair play, but the extreme result of fully law-abiding cops and citizens will wind up with both of sides sitting across the street from one another waiting until the other makes a mistake.

Sounds a bit absurd to me.

I would add that adopting a contentious attitude isn't the best response to an LEO. I've found the best response is to simply cooperate to the fullest extent possible without allowing one's rights to be trod on. On at least one occasion recently and LEO asked if he could do "X" and I replied, "Well, officer, I called you, so there's no RAS or PC for you to do X." (statement tone of voice, not a question). They said, no, there's not, and acknowledged the same. At that point, I said, "However, I can see you're itching, so take a look," they did, lasting about twenty seconds, then left.

I could not have done nearly as well a year ago. Thanks to all the pros and cons I've read with respect to LEO interaction, I simple handled it. Yes, I stood on my rights. If anything, my inviting the LEO's in for a quick look after they'd acknowledged no RAS or PC probably underscored, at least in their minds, they shouldn't not have been in there at all, given the fact I was the one who called them to the scene in the first place.

That's what I hope they took away from the encounter. What I learned the other evening was that being polite and courteous (beyond polite) goes a long way towards establishing a trustworthy relationship with other people, and that goes for anyone or any group of people who might not have trusted us in the past.

It doesn't mean being a doormat, and the concept is actually at the other end of the spectrum from doormat-ism.

CsHoSi said:

they said be careful, some cities have ordinances requiring you to carry ID if over 16

Click to expand...

Citizens aren't required to carry any ID, period.
That way lies a totalitarian gov't, with no civil rights.

usmc eh?

Brion said:

I agree It's MY script. But, the point I was getting at was while still engaging, I do not share any of MY Opinions, I don't share any of MY information, and I don't give him what he is asking for but I still reply to him in a manner that does further the conversation.

LEO: "You have a permit?"
Me: "What makes you think I don't have a permit?"

Not:

LEO: "What color is the sky?"
Me: "I like pinapple"

Continue the conversation, answer the question, but, don't answer the question.

Click to expand...

Responding with "Pineapple" makes it worse: "Possibly mentally defective person visibly armed".