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Thread: Trader Joe's Open Carry

  1. #1
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    Trader Joe's Open Carry

    I was in Trader Joe's (Surprise, AZ) the checkout clerk told me there where no weapons allowed in T.J. (I have been there many times before without anything being said) I said I did not see a sign she said we serve alcohol ... just tasting. The ARS law reads if you are in a place that is selling alcohol for consumption, concealed carry is required. She said I thought we had a sign.

    Anyone have any ideas or thoughts...

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    Regular Member Grimes's Avatar
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    I've been in many around phx and nothing was said. Unless they had a license, they could not just do wine tasting.

    If they were not posted with on-site consumption, then they are breaking the law. She can say there are no weapons allowed, but they are supposed to have a sign.
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  3. #3
    Regular Member Grimes's Avatar
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    but yes, if they have a license for on-site consumption. You must CC only, but you have to have a CC permit to go into a place that serves alcohol for on-site consumption.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimes View Post
    but yes, if they have a license for on-site consumption. You must CC only, but you have to have a CC permit to go into a place that serves alcohol for on-site consumption.

    Cite, please.

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.


    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

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    I saw a no weapons allowed sign on a door once, walked right pasted it and looked down at the tool on my belt.

  6. #6
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Cite, please.

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.


    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

    I've highlighted three pertinent areas. The second one shows that the employee is breaking the law if they allow an armed person to stay on premises. Licensed CCW (I'll call it what I want to despite the pleas of one of our members) is an exception. It must be concealed and not posted no firearms.
    I do not however, know if on-sale retailer includes wine tasting.

    ARS 4-244

    It is unlawful:

    snip 1-28 and 32 + ....


    29. For any person other than a peace officer or a member of a sheriff's volunteer posse while on duty who has received firearms training that is approved by the Arizona peace officer standards and training board, the licensee or an employee of the licensee acting with the permission of the licensee to be in possession of a firearm while on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer. This paragraph shall not be construed to include a situation in which a person is on licensed premises for a limited time in order to seek emergency aid and such person does not buy, receive, consume or possess spirituous liquor. This paragraph shall not apply to:

    (a) Hotel or motel guest room accommodations.

    (b) The exhibition or display of a firearm in conjunction with a meeting, show, class or similar event.

    (c) A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 who carries a concealed handgun on the licensed premises of any on-sale retailer that has not posted a notice pursuant to section 4-229.

    30. For a licensee or employee to knowingly permit a person in possession of a firearm other than a peace officer or a member of a sheriff's volunteer posse while on duty who has received firearms training that is approved by the Arizona peace officer standards and training board, the licensee or an employee of the licensee acting with the permission of the licensee to remain on the licensed premises or to serve, sell or furnish spirituous liquor to a person in possession of a firearm while on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer. It shall be a defense to action under this paragraph if the licensee or employee requested assistance of a peace officer to remove such person. This paragraph shall not apply to:

    (a) Hotel or motel guest room accommodations.

    (b) The exhibition or display of a firearm in conjunction with a meeting, show, class or similar event.

    (c) A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 who carries a concealed handgun on the licensed premises of any on-sale retailer that has not posted a notice pursuant to section 4-229.

    31. For any person in possession of a firearm while on the licensed premises of an on-sale retailer to consume spirituous liquor.

  7. #7
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    I don't think they qualify as an on-sale retailer. If I was an employee I'd probably ask them to leave too though without clear training since I would not want to be breaking the law myself.

    Hmm. Wal-Mart sells booze in the original container for consumption off premises. Have I been breaking the law when I carry in a grocery store. I thought this law was meant for restaurants and bars

    Fred, can you straighten me out here? I must be confused.

    ARS 4-101

    24. "On-sale retailer" means any person operating an establishment where spirituous liquors are sold in the original container for consumption on or off the premises or in individual portions for consumption on the premises.
    Edit to add: I just read the definition of Off-sale retailer which covers Wal-Mart, etc but am still concerned they fall under the definition of On-sale retailer as well. Well it's clear the law means to make a distinction between On and Off sale retailers, as worded, all Off-sale retailers can be considered On-sale retailers.
    Last edited by sharkey; 03-23-2011 at 05:03 AM.

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    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    24. "On-sale retailer" means any person operating an establishment where spirituous liquors are sold in the original container for consumption on or off the premises or in individual portions for consumption on the premises.
    Is wine a "spirituous liquor"?

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    Regular Member Grimes's Avatar
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    Walmart is not an on-sale retailer. Same with Target, a gas station, etc. They do not have the license to do so.

    An on-sale retailer would be a restaurant that serves alcohol, a bar, concert that serves alcohol, etc.

    Off-sale retailers cannot be considered on-sale.
    Last edited by Grimes; 03-23-2011 at 10:35 AM.
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    Regular Member azcdlfred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    I don't think they qualify as an on-sale retailer. I thought this law was meant for restaurants and bars. Fred, can you straighten me out here? I must be confused.
    The Restaurant Carry law is for places that serve booze for on-site consumption - bars and restaurants, not grocery stores.

    Stores that have wine tasting going on is a whole different license and as far as I remember, don't fall under the Restaruant Carry provisions (ARS 4-229).

    However, a business does NOT have to post a "no firearms" sign in order to ban you and your firearm. All they need to do is tell you, like in this situation. It's a private property issue.

    I suspect that Trader Joe's was not sure because they were doing a wine tasting event, but to be safe they were telling those with guns to leave.

    I open carry in the Trader Joe's in Tucson and it never seems to raise an eyebrow. But since most of their customers seem to be aging hippie potheads, they probably don't notice.

    Fred

  11. #11
    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfish View Post
    Is wine a "spirituous liquor"?

    Yes. I didn't think beer qualified as "spirituous liquor" either. I was wrong.

    Once again we go to ARS 4-101

    31. "Spirituous liquor" includes alcohol, brandy, whiskey, rum, tequila, mescal, gin, wine, porter, ale, beer, any malt liquor or malt beverage, absinthe, a compound or mixture of any of them or of any of them with any vegetable or other substance, alcohol bitters, bitters containing alcohol, any liquid mixture or preparation, whether patented or otherwise, which produces intoxication, fruits preserved in ardent spirits, and beverages containing more than one-half of one per cent of alcohol by volume.

  12. #12
    Regular Member AZkopper's Avatar
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    Most wine tasting events are 'single use' permits, for a set date/time, one-time event. They are issued by the local gov't and signed off by the sheriff's office/police department. Much like a block party or 'cinco de mayo/st. patti's day' event.

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