ixtow
Founder's Club Member
I've noticed something in most OC encounters that bothers me.
Deferring position.
I've already covered "Am I being detained" vs "Why am I being detained" at length. It's in my signature now.
Cop: "Hey buddy I need to talk to you."
You: "Sure, what about?"
Cop: "You have a gun!"
You: "That's not a crime."
Cop: "[insert excuses here]"
You: "Do you want to talk about a crime you are investigating?"
Cop: "[some crap about having a gun being a reason]"
You: "Why am I being detained?"
Cop: "You have a gun!"
You: "That isn't a crime, Sir/Ma'am."
[for green states that don't have a requirement to present]
Cop: "It is if you don't have a permit, give it to me."
You: "What reason do you have to believe that I don't have one?"
Cop: "I don't know, that's why I have to check."
He just nailed himself. RAS/PC requires knowledge, not a lack of it. You've established that you are being detained, and the officer has flat-out admitted that he/she has no RAS/PC for doing so. Lawsuit, or, use threat of lawsuit to get them trained to at least grudgingly respect the 4th.
That is very hard to accomplish if you ask instead of state.
You get the idea. Don't defer control by asking a question you already know the answer to, for which you know you won't ever get a straight answer.
I keep an open mind when a Cops stops me. Maybe I am an unwitting witness to something and they need some info I might have? I'm not advocating being in their face, never have. Merely that if they get pushy, don't let them push you. They spend months practicing certain wordplay in their training. We need to be aware of how to stop that game in it's tracks before it becomes more than words. And, depending on their attitude, willingness to break the law, and your appetite for fighting 'the man;' decide if you are going to let them get away with it or not, or allow them to escalate it to a false arrest. Maybe you'll decide to capitulate because you're afraid, broke, or your significant other is griping. Maybe you'll fight it to the bitter end and get a settlement. That's not really the point.
What you do with this knowledge and technique is up to you. If you want to sue their pants off, go for it. If not, that's up to you, too. You know better than to ask cops for legal advice, don't you? Then why do you ask them if they are breaking the law while they are breaking the law? Do you think that answer will be any more honest/accurate? That you'll even get an answer?
This stuff is DRILLED over and over in the police academy, more than anything else. You'd do good to know how to handle it before it happens. Just a few words can make all the difference.
[pending Florida specific appendix]
Cop: "It says you have to present on demand if you are carrying a Concealed Weapon of Firearm. Not Concealed Weapon or Concealed Firearm. Just Firearm."
[this is one hell of a gamble at this point]
You: "Trying to give the law a different meaning, by feigning illiteracy, doesn't seem like something a Judge would support."
Deferring position.
I've already covered "Am I being detained" vs "Why am I being detained" at length. It's in my signature now.
Cop: "Hey buddy I need to talk to you."
You: "Sure, what about?"
Cop: "You have a gun!"
You: "That's not a crime."
Cop: "[insert excuses here]"
You: "Do you want to talk about a crime you are investigating?"
Cop: "[some crap about having a gun being a reason]"
You: "Why am I being detained?"
Cop: "You have a gun!"
You: "That isn't a crime, Sir/Ma'am."
[for green states that don't have a requirement to present]
Cop: "It is if you don't have a permit, give it to me."
You: "What reason do you have to believe that I don't have one?"
Cop: "I don't know, that's why I have to check."
He just nailed himself. RAS/PC requires knowledge, not a lack of it. You've established that you are being detained, and the officer has flat-out admitted that he/she has no RAS/PC for doing so. Lawsuit, or, use threat of lawsuit to get them trained to at least grudgingly respect the 4th.
That is very hard to accomplish if you ask instead of state.
You get the idea. Don't defer control by asking a question you already know the answer to, for which you know you won't ever get a straight answer.
I keep an open mind when a Cops stops me. Maybe I am an unwitting witness to something and they need some info I might have? I'm not advocating being in their face, never have. Merely that if they get pushy, don't let them push you. They spend months practicing certain wordplay in their training. We need to be aware of how to stop that game in it's tracks before it becomes more than words. And, depending on their attitude, willingness to break the law, and your appetite for fighting 'the man;' decide if you are going to let them get away with it or not, or allow them to escalate it to a false arrest. Maybe you'll decide to capitulate because you're afraid, broke, or your significant other is griping. Maybe you'll fight it to the bitter end and get a settlement. That's not really the point.
What you do with this knowledge and technique is up to you. If you want to sue their pants off, go for it. If not, that's up to you, too. You know better than to ask cops for legal advice, don't you? Then why do you ask them if they are breaking the law while they are breaking the law? Do you think that answer will be any more honest/accurate? That you'll even get an answer?
This stuff is DRILLED over and over in the police academy, more than anything else. You'd do good to know how to handle it before it happens. Just a few words can make all the difference.
[pending Florida specific appendix]
Cop: "It says you have to present on demand if you are carrying a Concealed Weapon of Firearm. Not Concealed Weapon or Concealed Firearm. Just Firearm."
[this is one hell of a gamble at this point]
You: "Trying to give the law a different meaning, by feigning illiteracy, doesn't seem like something a Judge would support."
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