Police shooting

sureshot · Mar 24, 2011

I read an article in one of my gun magazines about a police officer, who was shot while on duty. He managed to get
off several shots that missed, but remembering what his trainer said, used his sights and shot the shooter in the knee
at about 40 yards. My question is, are police allowed to shoot someone who is running away and is no longer a
threat to them?

Guido · Mar 24, 2011

I do believe that it is dependent upon the laws of the state that they reside in.

For the most part however, yes the police can shoot a felony suspect who is fleeing without getting into trouble for it.

This is just my understanding from reviewing use of force articles and statements from police dept. that have had this come up. Personally I don't feel it is right or that it should be legal, I feel that if there is no imminent threat then deadly force should not be used or even threatened, unfortunately my opinion doesn't hold much sway with the authorities.

MR Redenck · Mar 24, 2011

If someone was shooting at me, I dont care if their doing it while running away or not.
Hint, Hint. :lol:

eye95 · Mar 24, 2011

A person who has just shot a police officer and is running away is an immediate threat to the community. It would probably be much easier to list the jurisdictions (if any) in which the officer could not shoot the fleeing felon.

In the story related, it sounds like he missed he target completely, yet again, getting lucky and hitting a knee. Surely, he was not so foolish as to aim for the knee or anything near it!

DevinWKuska · Mar 25, 2011

MR Redenck said:
If someone was shooting at me, I dont care if their doing it while running away or not.
Hint, Hint. :lol:

+2 My wife and I agree! If you just shot me(in my home or elsewhere) if your still in range your getting hit! Not to mention I am pretty sure I can say he shot me then turned around as I drew to fire. IT was life or death must have blacked out after I began to fire

Citizen · Mar 25, 2011

Tennessee vs Garner:

From the Syllabus (summary):

Held: The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against, as in this case, an apparently unarmed, nondangerous fleeing suspect; such force may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

From the opinion:

...The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable. It is not better that all felony suspects die than that they escape. Where the suspect poses no immediate threat to the officer and no threat to others, the harm resulting from failing to apprehend him does not justify the use of deadly force to do so. It is no doubt unfortunate when a suspect who is in sight escapes, but the fact that the police arrive a little late or are a little slower afoot does not always justify killing the suspect. A police officer may not seize an unarmed, nondangerous suspect by shooting him dead. The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against such fleeing suspects...

...Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape...

The entire opinion is rather interesting reading:

http://supreme.justia.com/us/471/1/case.html

paramedic70002 · Mar 25, 2011

Definitely legal in VA. And BTW any Correctional Officer can legally shoot any escaping felon, as they are presumed to be a danger to the public, although this allowance is not automatically extended to other law enforcement officers.

DevinWKuska · Mar 25, 2011

Citizen said:
Tennessee vs Garner:

From the Syllabus (summary):

Held: The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against, as in this case, an apparently unarmed, nondangerous fleeing suspect; such force may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

From the opinion:

...The use of deadly force to prevent the escape of all felony suspects, whatever the circumstances, is constitutionally unreasonable. It is not better that all felony suspects die than that they escape. Where the suspect poses no immediate threat to the officer and no threat to others, the harm resulting from failing to apprehend him does not justify the use of deadly force to do so. It is no doubt unfortunate when a suspect who is in sight escapes, but the fact that the police arrive a little late or are a little slower afoot does not always justify killing the suspect. A police officer may not seize an unarmed, nondangerous suspect by shooting him dead. The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against such fleeing suspects...

...Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape...

The entire opinion is rather interesting reading:

http://supreme.justia.com/us/471/1/case.html

I think this statement although interesting doesn necessarily apply. The Police officer WAS SHOT. THis article seems to pertain to felons in general, not felons who just shot police officers. But Maybe I am mis-understanding. Although a person(erm.. felon BG) who just shot a police officer IMO warrants a significant threat to the LEO and the general public.

Citizen · Mar 25, 2011

DevinWKuska said:
I think this statement although interesting doesn necessarily apply. The Police officer WAS SHOT. THis article seems to pertain to felons in general, not felons who just shot police officers. But Maybe I am mis-understanding. Although a person(erm.. felon BG) who just shot a police officer IMO warrants a significant threat to the LEO and the general public.

Devin,

You are reading excerpts from a US Supreme Court opinion. It certainly does apply to the OPers question and circumstances. Here is part of it again:

...Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus,if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape...

In as much as the suspect had shot at the cop, the cop was authorized by this case law to shoot to prevent escape. In fact, the common law that authorized the cop to shoot goes back centuries (read the opinion for more on this).

Gunslinger · Mar 26, 2011

As the BG already committed attempted murder, and probably a few other felonies, the cop was completely justified in using whatever force necessary--up to and including deadly force, to stop him from escaping. He presented a real and present danger to the community, although no longer to the cop.

Read the whole case citation. Inter alia quotes don't cover the intent and process used to reach the bottom line finding. Interesting case.

Citizen · Mar 26, 2011

Gunslinger said:
SNIP Read the whole case citation. Inter alia quotes don't cover the intent and process used to reach the bottom line finding. Interesting case.

Yes, very.

One of my favorite aspects was that burglary is not something for which one receives the death penalty. Given the behavior of some police, and the willingness of other police to tolerate it, I have no problem dramatically narrowing police authority to shoot people.

Gunslinger · Mar 27, 2011

Citizen said:
Yes, very.

One of my favorite aspects was that burglary is not something for which one receives the death penalty. Given the behavior of some police, and the willingness of other police to tolerate it, I have no problem dramatically narrowing police authority to shoot people.

And yet, with or without Castle Doctrine, it is generally considered a crime of violence against which deadly force is authorized for the home owner. There are exceptions in slave states, but generally DF can be used--everywhere I've lived, at any rate.

Citizen · Mar 27, 2011

Gunslinger said:
And yet, with or without Castle Doctrine, it is generally considered a crime of violence against which deadly force is authorized for the home owner. There are exceptions in slave states, but generally DF can be used--everywhere I've lived, at any rate.

Good point. Does this mean the law trusts citizens more than cops, I wonder?

I guess it speaks to timing. The homeowner who is inside is in immediate potential danger, (because it might be more than burglary?) The cop chasing the suspected burglar is doing it after the fact, when it is more likely known to be "merely" burglary. If it was robbery with threat of infliction of serious harm, then lethal force seems authorized by Tenn. v Garner for the pursuing cop, or rather recognized by that court as longstandingly constitutional.

hermannr · Mar 27, 2011

Put the shoe on the other foot. You are out and about town, and some shoots YOU. do you believe you have the legal right to protect yourself? Now, let us suppose you shot and killed the BG that just shot you. Would that be OK?

My answer is, absolutely yes, even in NYC you would not be convicted of murder. In NYC you would rot in jail for having a weapon, rather than being out on parole for committing murder. Remember Bernard Goetz?

Citizen · Mar 27, 2011

hermannr said:
Put the shoe on the other foot. You are out and about town, and some shoots YOU. do you believe you have the legal right to protect yourself? Now, let us suppose you shot and killed the BG that just shot you. Would that be OK?

My answer is, absolutely yes, even in NYC you would not be convicted of murder. In NYC you would rot in jail for having a weapon, rather than being out on parole for committing murder. Remember Bernard Goetz?

Welcome, Hermannr.

The problem is that the discussion is about the law. And, with law, the devil is in the details.

In the original post, the issue is whether a cop can shoot someone who was, but no longer is, a threat to the cop.

There is law about whether a citizen can shoot after the threat ceases. And, there is a different law about whether cops can shoot after the threat ceases.

SouthernBoy · Mar 28, 2011

paramedic70002 said:
Definitely legal in VA. And BTW any Correctional Officer can legally shoot any escaping felon, as they are presumed to be a danger to the public, although this allowance is not automatically extended to other law enforcement officers.

In Virginia, the laws defining the use of deadly force is pretty much the same for police and civilians. (info per an attorney in Virginia).

paramedic70002 · Mar 29, 2011

SouthernBoy said:
In Virginia, the laws defining the use of deadly force is pretty much the same for police and civilians. (info per an attorney in Virginia).

I'm just parroting what I was taught in Virginia Correctional Officer academy, many long years ago.

Police shooting

sureshot

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Guido

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MR Redenck

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eye95

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DevinWKuska

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Citizen

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paramedic70002

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